Page 17 of 22 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
19
... LastLast
  1. #321
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    All that moves is easily heard in the void.
    Posts
    6,331
    The real problem with raids is that there is only progression in terms of gear.

    You can skip LFR, but you will start with Normal. Once you clear that, you will do Heroic (Normal with a bit more damage and health...and maybe a few more mechanics) to give you the same gear with slightly better stats. Once you clear that, you will do Mythic (Normal with even more damage and health...and maybe a few more mechanics) to give you the same gear with more stats.

    For most people, this is not really fun. And if you just join BfA now, there is only one raid. No one does earlier raids from this expansion except for xmogs and lols. This is simply a gear grind.

    Mythic+, while entertaining for a little while, actually makes content exhaustion worse. The goal is to *race* through that content over and over and over again...to get the same gear you already have with slightly better stats.

    And this is why Retail has no more than 2 million subs left (likely a good deal less). WoW didn't used to be a game that you played for a couple of months and cancel your sub. But Blizz, in its infinite laziness, has made the game that way. They don't really care though since they spend so little on WoW now, that the relatively low number of subs still translates to pretty big profits.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    Instead of making it widely available via LFR?
    And once again taking yet another shot on thoose players who enjoys LFR. How freaking hard is it for you people to let them be. Let them enjoy they way THEY want. No, they dont want to start min maxing, put time and effort into a bloody computer game. They want to log in, to have fun, to do something with their friends and log off.

    If you want to take the battle between Mythic Raids vs M+, by all means... But it gets sickening to see thread after thread attacking the LFR people. Good for them, I'm glad blizzard introduced it in Cataclysm. No content should EVER be gated to "minor group of people". And good for them for getting few epic loots aswell. Use it, sell it, disenchant it, whatever. Good for them.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post

    It's a joke because you don't need to raid.
    Can you explain why you need to raid? I tend to just do it casually, though over lockdown I have done it more, 2-3 nights per week, not properly raided since TBC, so I am by no means anti raid, I don't begrudge people raiding, but no one has managed to explain to me, or from what I have seen made a compelling argument as to why nothing should parallel raiding in any way/why an alternative that isn't as time consuming in a single chunk of time is bad.

    And to be clear, most of the arguments I have seen here (and I concede I haven't seen every page, so I could have missed some and got this skewed, if so I hold my hands up) tend to be trying to defend HC raiding, implying that it is/should be above mythic+, in my opinion high level m+ keys are harder than HC raiding, I think it is justified that high level m+ keys give better loot than most HC bosses.

    And mythic raiding is still there, it still offers the best of the best gear and the highest challenge.

    I know this will agitate some people, and I thought about not saying as not to inflame anyone, but I see an awful lot of people who aren't cut out for mythic raiding seeming threatened that whereas HC raiding was still better than running HC dungeons, there is now content that challenges it, and what they did lost some of its shine, that a chunk of this is people having their egos dented a bit, in the past saying they were a HC raider was a way to elevate themselves over other players, now something is here that makes it not as impressive, their ability to hold themselves above others has been compromised. These tend to be the people who talk about high level m+ keys as if they are a joke (I would be interested to see those peoples m+ progression), I am sure there are those who are farming really high keys on a regular basis and find like a +15 straight forward, but I don't think that is the case for most people, most people still need to bring their A game in a +15, it is still a challenge, and on certain weeks a really big challenge.

    Now this isn't aimed at mythic raiders who are annoyed that the weekly chest offers gear of the same ilvl as most mythic bosses, while I do think that this isn't as big an issue as some make out, the weekly chest is seriously RNG heavy (I've only ever had 1 usable 475 item from the weekly out of god knows how many chests now, the rest is from raiding), the last 2 bosses offer the highest ilvl gear in the game, and many pieces are BiS in mythic raiding, so even if it has the same ilvl, that doesn't make the weekly one as good. Note I said I didn't think it was as big an issue as some people make out, I still have some sympathy with the complaint that it touches too close into mythic raiding territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  4. #324
    This is a difficult topic.

    In my opinion, raids have never been more difficult than they are right now (I am a mythic raider. So when I talk about raids, I talk about the mythic level difficulty, not normal/hc/LFR) and I agree that there are too many difficulty levels. Personally, I would remove LFR and normal. This would basically result in heroic becoming normal and mythic becoming heroic.

    I do understand when people say that they don't want to invest that much time into the game (or even don't have the time to begin with) and still want to see the raids, but at some point this kind of behavior changes to some form of entitlement, which I don't support. I would say the best approach to this whole topic is to keep LFR in the game, but literally have no gear rewards from it. So it is basically just for the story and that is it.

    When it comes to the whole dungeon topic... A few years ago I would have said that you are right. Dungeons should be a stepping stone towards raids. Thus, the gear they give should never be better or even equal to raids. But this changed with M+. If you do really high level keys then it becomes just as challenging as doing raids. Maybe the solution here is to not stop with the max ilvl at 15 keys, but keep increasing it until lets say 20 keys. Obviously, the 20 keys here should be equal to what you get in mythic raids (with maybe the final boss of a mythic raid giving the highest item level in the game overall. Just like N'zoth does for example)

  5. #325
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    953
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    When I talked about it being answering, that was to direct you to Advent's post, you misread/misinterpreted my post, Advent corrected your misunderstanding/reading of the post.

    However, I mean, there is this thing called mythic+...your post seems confused, you say there's pvp and raiding, as if that is it, as if mythic+ isn't a thing, you are posting in a thread about mythic+ and post as if it doesn't exist. Whether you want to acknowledge it is real, or whether you think it is ok or not doesn't change the objective, observable and demonstrable fact that it is in the game.

    Its purpose it clearly as an alternative/supplement to raiding. Just because you don't think such a thing should exist doesn't therefore mean that mythic+ doesn't, or isn't serving this purpose, doesn't mean that it isn't. People who might have been trying to get involved in raiding, but are employed and maybe have families and struggle with the time commitments of a full on raiding guild now have an alternative, shorter content that is still challenging (sorry HC raiders, but I can't accept that HC raids are harder than high level mythic keys, with the exception of a few bosses the real challenge is just getting a team together and the potential time sink for a run/logistics of keeping a larger group together, which is not the same as challenging content) and has rewards based on that challenge.

    You might not agree with this alternative/supplementary content (depending on how you play the game), but it is real and its intentions are clear. You don't need to like this, by all means come up with alternatives/justifications for scrapping it, but don't talk as if it isn't real just because you don't like it.
    You do dungeons of all types to gear, Mythic+ has just made things a bit more redundant and grindy in terms of gearing. The end goal is still the same. As for everything else you've said, it doesn't really make any sense so I don't think i'll bother replying to it.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Remember "raid or die"? Well... now we're here.
    How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?
    With probably shit stats and sub optimal trinkets and azerite traits.
    And you can not get your 480 azerite in 1 week.

    Item level is not everything.

    But sure you can get 470+ and still be bad

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?
    Good luck getting 470+ in a few days by spamming M+, genius.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Good luck getting 470+ in a few days by spamming M+, genius.
    Oh sorry, 465 at minimum. And yes, you can get to FULL 465+ in a week via spamming M+. I'm sorry you're an LFR hero and don't have the proper io to get into 15s, but that's a you problem.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Oh sorry, 465 at minimum. And yes, you can get to FULL 465+ in a week via spamming M+. I'm sorry you're an LFR hero and don't have the proper io to get into 15s, but that's a you problem.
    Yeah sure tough guy.

    https://raider.io/characters/eu/khaz-modan/Barzotti

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    kekw.

    Anyway, you must just be mentally inept. You can quite literally spam M+ all day long and get 465 gear so like idk what your thought process is.

  12. #332
    I found raiding became bland with the removal of tier set. It was nice having exclusive gear with some form or class integration. Azerite armor tried but you could get that from everything.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    kekw.

    Anyway, you must just be mentally inept. You can quite literally spam M+ all day long and get 465 gear so like idk what your thought process is.
    Haha that sweet backpedaling

    On topic: top raiding gear is still vastly superior to M+ gear (stats/corruption/ilvl wise) so I don't see how raiding feels meaningless. They complement each other well. And if people want to spam M+, an activity with strong diminishing returns, well, let them be? They will have 465 gear with probably shitty stats, shitty corruption, the same way you disenchant almost every one of the 5 masks runs gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hero2Zer0 View Post
    I found raiding became bland with the removal of tier set. It was nice having exclusive gear with some form or class integration. Azerite armor tried but you could get that from everything.
    With the removal of tier sets raiding became less mandatory. And you can effectively get bis azerite pieces through the vendor, but targeting your BiS pieces is so expensive that raiding is still vastly more efficient. M+ azerite is poor man's raiding azerite unless you're quite lucky with azerite gambling. It was a problem when people spammed M+ because some M+ trinkets were the best available (balefire branch-ignition fuse), but not anymore I think.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:02 PM.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Haha that sweet backpedaling

    On topic: top raiding gear is still vastly superior to M+ gear (stats/corruption/ilvl wise) so I don't see how raiding feels meaningless. They complement each other well. And if people want to spam M+, an activity with strong diminishing returns, well, let them be? They will have 465 gear with probably shitty stats, shitty corruption, the same way you disenchant almost every one of the 5 masks runs gear.



    With the removal of tier sets raiding became less mandatory. And you can effectively get bis azerite pieces through the vendor, but targeting your BiS pieces is so expensive that raiding is still vastly more efficient. M+ azerite is poor man's raiding azerite unless you're quite lucky with azerite gambling. It was a problem when some M+ trinkets were the best available (balefire branch-ignition fuse), but not anymore I think.
    6 timed 15s is nothing to boast about, but okay lol.

    Anyway, "raid or die" has effectively gone away because you can quite literally get gear faster than ever before. Back in WotLK? That was raid or die. Your gear of choice if you didn't raid was ilvl 200 heroic dungeon gear.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    6 timed 15s is nothing to boast about, but okay lol.

    Anyway, "raid or die" has effectively gone away because you can quite literally get gear faster than ever before. Back in WotLK? That was raid or die. Your gear of choice if you didn't raid was ilvl 200 heroic dungeon gear.
    I never boasted about timing some weekly keys before I stopped playing and I have never been an incredible player but it's far from "LFR hero". "Raid or die" has effectively disappeared and allowing alternate paths of gearing is an excellent thing in my opinion. However, if people want to be competitive (whether it's for M+ or pvp), raiding is mandatory still and vastly more efficient to gear a character quickly and optimally.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    I never boasted about timing some weekly keys before I stopped playing and I have never been an incredible player but it's far from "LFR hero". "Raid or die" has effectively disappeared and allowing alternate paths of gearing is an excellent thing in my opinion. However, if people want to be competitive (whether it's for M+ or pvp), raiding is mandatory still and vastly more efficient to gear a character quickly and optimally.
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long? I can completely gear a toon with Mythic+ in less than a week, whereas raiding gives me 4 pieces of gear per week

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long? I can completely gear a toon with Mythic+ in less than a week, whereas raiding gives me 4 pieces of gear per week
    Except there's still some weird disconnect here.

    There's the assumption "you can spam +15s to get 465+ in a day". Technically true, yes.

    But that means you're not 465 or close already. And good luck getting into any keys higher than a 10 with a low item level, regardless of what your main's io is.
    And that's the issue. You could theoretically spam M+ to gear yes, but you also will more than likely end up having to crawl your way up with a key yourself, or invest so much time into trying to get into other groups.

    You could also ask friends for help through M+, true, but that's really no different than asking for help getting gear through the raid, which you'll get far more than just "4 pieces of gear" since you can be traded gear.

    And there's far more than just trinkets that is needed from the raid. Weapons like from Ra-den and Skitra (hunters) are far too vital with the unique corruptions.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long?
    Time wise, raiding is vastly superior:

    - The raiding gear is still the best gear (for example, the hunter bow, Ra-Den weapons) with the possibility to target specific pieces with way more success than in M+ through bonus rolls;

    - You can trade items with way more people in raid;

    - You can't loot Azerite pieces in M+, which is a considerable source of power. You can acquire them through the M+ vendor, but you can buy one 480 random piece like every 2-3 weeks if you do a weekly 15. It will take you more than two months to get random 480 pieces, with a 1/3 chance at best to get your BiS trait depending on the spec. While you can just buy a Nyalotha carry and get your BiS azerite after two hours;

    - M+ has strong diminishing returns. Let's say you are in a ideal situation (you're getting carried 20 hours a day by 4 people through 15s who share the same armor type and can trade absolutely everything). You will end the runs with a char towards Heroic power because your items will have a good ilvl but shitty stats, shitty corruption effects probably, subpar trinkets. You can effectively spam M+ and get endless loot. You'll end up with endless epics ready to be disenchanted because the M+ loot is pretty bad except for a few items.

    I stopped raiding after Legion and geared my chars exclusively through M+. My last char had an inflated ilvl (471 ivl before I stopped playing) but with shitty shats, shitty corruptions, shitty trinkets.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:38 PM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except there's still some weird disconnect here.

    There's the assumption "you can spam +15s to get 465+ in a day". Technically true, yes.

    But that means you're not 465 or close already. And good luck getting into any keys higher than a 10 with a low item level, regardless of what your main's io is.
    And that's the issue. You could theoretically spam M+ to gear yes, but you also will more than likely end up having to crawl your way up with a key yourself, or invest so much time into trying to get into other groups.

    You could also ask friends for help through M+, true, but that's really no different than asking for help getting gear through the raid, which you'll get far more than just "4 pieces of gear" since you can be traded gear.

    And there's far more than just trinkets that is needed from the raid. Weapons like from Ra-den and Skitra (hunters) are far too vital with the unique corruptions.
    I still feel M+ is a more efficient way of getting gear (I never one said specific gear, so..) and trading gear has stipulations, for example the person trying to trade must have a higher ilvl equipped etc. That's why I put it at the 4 pieces of gear.

    So Mythic + is an endless font of gear (whether or not you have to "work your way up") and raiding has a 1 week lockout where you'll usually get 4 pieces of gear.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    I still feel M+ is a more efficient way of getting gear (I never one said specific gear, so..) and trading gear has stipulations, for example the person trying to trade must have a higher ilvl equipped etc. That's why I put it at the 4 pieces of gear.

    So Mythic + is an endless font of gear (whether or not you have to "work your way up") and raiding has a 1 week lockout where you'll usually get 4 pieces of gear.
    M+ is an endless font of subpar gear ready to be disenchanted except for very specific pieces of loot.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •