Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Weeps]

Oh yeah, how many holy priests and ret pallies were in the world first race? It's almost like there will be a meta in every asymmetrical game ever.

By way of example, I just looked and every single tank spec is represented in the top 100 m+ runs.

Again it swings and roundabouts.

Really hard to do when there’s so few tank specs

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Oh, you mean like how the harder world-first Mythic raid bosses require rigid class composition to meet the DPS/utility checks? That doesn't sound similar at all.

Quit crying about gear. We've been getting welfare epics since TBC (since Vanilla, tbh) and this way, at least, requires skill and effort. Raiding has always been my favorite part of WoW, whether it be raid leading server-first accomplishments, selling heroic Ragnaros mounts while it was still current, or even bringing a tight-knit group of 10 raiders for the fun, if not super challenging 10-man WotLK hard modes.

When I actively played WoW, I was a raider, through and through -- raiding was my life for several years. If I hadn't gone and got married, I'd still be investing full-time job hours into WoW raiding. Even so, I would never pretend that raiding is so unique and important as to be the only source of high-end gear. That's bullshit. There are people playing this game that want a challenge that doesn't involve hours upon hours upon hours of wiping to raid bosses. High-level Mythic+ keys are, perhaps, the most challenging PvE activity in this game and those players deserve to have quality, non-cosmetic loot rewards. You can disagree all you want, but you're being completely self-serving in doing so. They want people to actually play the content and cosmetic rewards will never be able to draw in the amount of players that they want. If they're going to remove quality loot from M+, they might as well remove M+ while they're at it.

Yes. Remove quality loot. Cosmetics baby.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you aren't raiding because you enjoy the feeling of large group succession, you shouldn't do it anyway.
People raid for all sorts of selfish reasons, but at the end of the day, the other 19 people should be your friends.
That should be the only reason that matters, unless you are in epeen territory.

[kenn9530]

You're just repeating what you said and missed the point:
Some People are playing the game to improve their character first and foremost, not necessarily because they need it to tackle a greater challenge.

Said upgrades are far more rare and Classic, thus they are more valueable.

Your missing the point, you should never play a game focusing on only obtaining gear, if thats your main goal in the game then your just setting yourself up for disappointment. Granted there is not much else to do in classic as it is but gear should only be used as a means to make content easier/faster.

[Kralljin]

Your missing the point, you should never play a game focusing on only obtaining gear, if thats your main goal in the game then your just setting yourself up for disappointment.

The very point of RPG's such as WoW is to progress your character (=Acquire more powerful gear).
That's even been repeated by the Game director himself.

Mate, this game is 15 years old and you just failed on the very basic of this damn game, Gear is nothing but an alternate way to progress your character beyond the regular leveling process.

[Musta]

You will have no titanforge this time. Dont worry.

[kenn9530]

The very point of RPG's such as WoW is to progress your character (=Acquire more powerful gear).
That's even been repeated by the Game director himself.

Mate, this game is 15 years old and you just failed on the very basic of this damn game, Gear is nothing but an alternate way to progress your character beyond the regular leveling process.

No it isnt, gear is easy to get no matter if its retail or classic, you play the game the way you want and you obtain the gear thats available to you pretty simple.

If you set a goal to clear all raid content then gear is no issue as you will get it regardless, if your not doing raid content then your never going to get BiS anyway so it doesnt matter.

If gear is your main goal in WoW then your playing the game wrong because as soon as your BiS you have lost your main reason to play.

[Kralljin]

No it isnt, gear is easy to get no matter if its retail or classic

Try to get some of the high value items in Classic without insane Luck.

Or Try to get R12-R14 Items without dedicating your life to WoW for the next 3-4 months.

With bosses only dropping 2-4 items on 40 people and said loot wildly varying between being BiS for the remainder of the expansion and vendor trash, it takes ages until you have your BiS gear.
So no, it's not "easy" to get, because nothing that's "easy" requires this amount of dedication.

If gear is your main goal in WoW then your playing the game wrong because as soon as your BiS you have lost your main reason to play.

Because people achieve their BiS gear within two months and are stuck with nothing to do, right?

Believe what you want on why people play this game, but gear is nothing but a vessel to progress your character, to increase the power of it.
If you think that's not the reason why people are playing RPG's such as WoW, do that, but i don't feel the need to further argue with you over this.

[Ryzek]

Raiding does not feel meaningless to me after this time. Probably the reason for that is I don't raid for gear or prestige. I raid for that feeling that happens when you beat a raid with people you enjoy playing with and stick it out despite all the wipes. Is gear important? Yes very much so, but its a tool to me nothing more. I can understand though that many people raid for gear or prestige and I can see how that has been diminished in their eye.

[Saltysquidoon]

For a long time my biggest single gripe with the game has been how access to mythic is restricted. I always hit the same spot - I massively outgear heroic to the point where it's incredibly boring, but I'm just never going to agree to join a guild that raids at a specific time every week, so I will never be a mythic raider. That means there's nowhere to go.

I don't think that's mythic being restricted, that's mythic requiring organised groups. The highest level of raiding has always required that.

[kenn9530]

Try to get some of the high value items in Classic without insane Luck.

Or Try to get R12-R14 Items without dedicating your life to WoW for the next 3-4 months.

With bosses only dropping 2-4 items on 40 people and said loot wildly varying between being BiS for the remainder of the expansion and vendor trash, it takes ages until you have your BiS gear.
So no, it's not "easy" to get, because nothing that's "easy" requires this amount of dedication.

Because people achieve their BiS gear within two months and are stuck with nothing to do, right?

Believe what you want on why people play this game, but gear is nothing but a vessel to progress your character, to increase the power of it.
If you think that's not the reason why people are playing RPG's such as WoW, do that, but i don't feel the need to further argue with you over this.

Gear is easy to get its just requires time there is very little skill needed in classic. If your raiding you will obtain any gear you want eventually anyway so its pointless to make it your goal in WoW, time is not a factor on how difficult something is.

If your goal is gear then when you get it your less likely to play as often because you have achieved what you wanted to do, just like raiders when they clear content they do the bare minimum they can get away with because they have achieved the goal they aimed for.

[Saltysquidoon]

Why though? Cross realm pugs do 3 bosses all the time, and most of the time they collapse not because the content is too hard, but because someone leaves and it's basically impossible to find a replacement when it means locking yourself to an in progress raid id. If mythic had flexible lockouts it would be pugged too. Maybe not the last couple bosses but probably 2/3 of the raid pretty regularly.

I doubt PuGs have any real chance of clearing hump bosses in a mythic raid with any regularity unless you're in maintenance mode patch madness like now and everyone overhears the content to the point it doesn't matter anymore.

The first issue is to protect the integrity of prog raiding, the workaround here is to only open up a flexible lockout after X amount of guilds have cleared the final boss on mythic (although if it's by faction that would favour the horde).

The long term issue is that flexible lockouts would be another dagger in the heart of guilds which imo (counter to yours obviously) is unnecessary. You can already PuG pretty much everything else in the game, there is no reason to make the highest tier of content PuG friendly.

[Mirishka]

I think the game could do with a few less raid modes (is there even a need for BOTH normal and HC to exist?) but I'm enjoying raiding overall. Being a mythic raider now feels a lot more prestigious/challenging than it did when I did it in WotLK for example.

You didn't do any Mythic raiding in WotLK. :P

[docterfreeze]

It's pretty annoying that gearing is faster through m+, and that certain trinkets and effect items from dungeons are irreplaceable in raids. Any time i'm in m+ i'd much rather be raiding.

[Gref]

After reading these, I can imagine raids becoming mega dungeons for 5 or 10 people max. with just normal and heroic version.

[cparle87]

Mythic raiding should stay where it is but I would substract other game elements that can make it really painful for top players, i.e. farming crazy amounts of AP etc. Some amount of grind is absolutely understandable for that tier of raiding but sometimes it gets really crazy.

Thing is the grind is really in people's heads for the most part. All you needed was enough to unlock your azerite gear, and that was enough. Except for honest to goodness world first raiders another 2 ilvls on your neck for a level you grinded out that made you hate yourself and the game wasn't going to make or break your run. Sadly people look at the insane stuff the world firsters do and assume everyone who wants to succeed has to do the same.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Thing is the grind is really in people's heads for the most part. All you needed was enough to unlock your azerite gear, and that was enough. Except for honest to goodness world first raiders another 2 ilvls on your neck for a level you grinded out that made you hate yourself and the game wasn't going to make or break your run. Sadly people look at the insane stuff the world firsters do and assume everyone who wants to succeed has to do the same.

it was not the 2 ilvl, we grinded for the 3% stam node this stam node made my guild suvive ashvane bubles overlap in the first mythic week and get us the kill 3% stam is a big deal on progress fights

[Shaetha]

Several. You'd know that if you checked before spouting off nonsense.

Don't jump in on one side of an argument when both sides are completely making shit up. You only show your bias.



OT: If gear level is the only reason you play, you shouldn't be playing. Gear is not going to magically make the game fun if you don't enjoy playing it. The point of raids is to beat the boss.

Loot is basically your score.

[LanToaster]

Without titan forging you cant really gear in M+ anymore. U get 1 item per week where as if you were mythic raiding you could get multiple items per week depending on how fast your guild progresses.

Also in M+ you get 1 item per week for doing just 1 dungeon. Thats kinda boring and no challenge from a competitive perspective. You only need to do one 15 to get a 475 piece. Any higher is a waste, where as almost every boss in a raid could have loot until you get that piece.

Not really true.
You get 465 items from M+15 Dungeons. These are as good as or better than the items from the Heroic Raid. And getting in a decent MythicRaid is way harder than getting in a decent M+ Group that completes +15 dungeons.

I agree with the OP that there is a bit "Too Much" gear floating around, but I dont really see a good way to fix that without hurting other aspects of the Game.

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The very point of RPG's such as WoW is to progress your character (=Acquire more powerful gear).
That's even been repeated by the Game director himself.

Mate, this game is 15 years old and you just failed on the very basic of this damn game, Gear is nothing but an alternate way to progress your character beyond the regular leveling process.

Damn, playing the game because its fun is wrong? Dang, I´ve been doing it wrong the whole time. Jokes aside, sure for many People "Getting gear" is the goal. But especially with Raiding, for probably at least the same amount "Playing the game" is the goal.

I have a RaidGroup, and we go every week HC NyAlotha, basically from the get go, no one actually needed stuff to begin with, with the exception of one or two BiS Items. Its not really hard or a Challenge, but its fun to get together for a few hours and smash some Abarations/Demons/Nagas or whatever the current raid is.

[ClassicPeon]

The problem isnt that there are different progression paths.

Raids should feature the best loot in the game(strongest trinkets/set items/weapons)

HC ilvl should be obtainable from m+, mythic ilvl(or perhaps a bit lower) should be obtainable from weekly chest.

As long as the best trinkets/weapons/tier gear comes from raids the rest is fine.

PvP gear should have pvp power and as thus pvp/pve shouldnt be interchangeable.

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Not really true.
You get 465 items from M+15 Dungeons. These are as good as or better than the items from the Heroic Raid. And getting in a decent MythicRaid is way harder than getting in a decent M+ Group that completes +15 dungeons.

Nope. Pugging hc nyalotha is easier then doing a 15+. Most of the bosses in there are just free loot.

[mojusk]

I did Mythic in Legion and some in BFA and it didn't feel any more challenging than Heroic, the timings just felt tighter. People blow how hard mythic is out of proportion because they wanna gatekeep the top for exclusivity purposes. It's a big cool kids club circle jerk. That's why there's ever increasing hoops you have to jump through and people only care about world 1st.

I equate this to Path of Exile players at the top. They've become so bored of the game that they have to go do SSF HC Race to 100 World First Uber Elite Sudden Death Doom Mode and anything below is undesirable.
Video games just create this ever increasing bar now, it's ridiculous and a bit masochistic.

howcome many guilds clear heroic in 1 week and same guilds take months to clear mythic?
you think we wipe for months, to keep it a secret that its actually easy? lol, nice tinfoil hat theory.