Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Dommie530]

You're arguing against points that werent made. Why?

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Its "super disturbing" that there's a system in place to allow players to continue with character progression after finishing content in the current tier?

Completely fine when it would be cosmetics only. which is also CHARACTER progression.
It's fine that you like the current model. I'm happy for you.

I just can't wrap my head around when the minions (henchman of a raid boss aka some dungeon bosses ) drops worse gear, but to only give better gear then their bosses 2 months later on.

Like i said, mythic+ currently is simply seasonal, and in my book it's realy bad when you tie gear progression to it with significant loot drops like it is now. but you might love it, and i might not. opinions are opinions.

Mythic + Is preciously titanforge in disguise, except it happends every 3-4 months, hunting that same item every 4 months, good shit for some people, others see through the shit.


RAID LIVES MATTERS
STOP THE BULLSHIT

[SkagenRora]

You only raid for gear, so if there are other alternatives for gearing, then yes there is no point in raiding and it will be meaningless

[crakerjack]

This is basically what they had in the start of MoP. It didn't work because there are many players for whom current heroic is too difficult, and consigning them to LFR was a mistake.

I think the blame falls on the overall difficulty of the game. WoW is too easy overall. Almost all content outside of PvP, m+ and raiding requires no skill and is mindless zombie-esque content. The game shouldn't allow someone who is mediocre to still succeed. If they're not playing their class right, doing WQ's shouldn't still be a breeze. Mobs should kill people if they don't play their class right, but they don't. There's no consequences for playing your class incorrectly/poorly outside of m+, raiding and PvP.

LFR should become normal difficulty because that way people actually have to try and put their best foot forward. Not saying normal is difficult, but it's definitely a step up from LFR. This would hopefully cause players to try a little at playing better and the overall quality of the game would improve for everyone involved.

That's what honestly hurts the game, lazy players who aren't willing to read a guide and learn their class. It's one thing if the person has a handicap or some personal issue that inhibits their motor/mental coordination, but if you're able bodied and you don't play efficiently, you're really doing yourself and everyone you play with a disservice (not specifically you, the royal you). I believe everyone would enjoy the game more if the overall playerbase improved in skill.

[Twdft]

I think the blame falls on the overall difficulty of the game. WoW is too easy overall. Almost all content outside of PvP, m+ and raiding requires no skill and is mindless zombie-esque content. The game shouldn't allow someone who is mediocre to still succeed. If they're not playing their class right, doing WQ's shouldn't still be a breeze. Mobs should kill people if they don't play their class right, but they don't. There's no consequences for playing your class incorrectly/poorly outside of m+, raiding and PvP.

LFR should become normal difficulty because that way people actually have to try and put their best foot forward. Not saying normal is difficult, but it's definitely a step up from LFR. This would hopefully cause players to try a little at playing better and the overall quality of the game would improve for everyone involved.

That's what honestly hurts the game, lazy players who aren't willing to read a guide and learn their class. It's one thing if the person has a handicap or some personal issue that inhibits their motor/mental coordination, but if you're able bodied and you don't play efficiently, you're really doing yourself and everyone you play with a disservice (not specifically you, the royal you). I believe everyone would enjoy the game more if the overall playerbase improved in skill.

So you want to kill the game? Only about 10% of all players are what you would call "good", if you deny the other 90% their progress they will not get better but quit. Making the game harder will not make the majority of players improve, early Cata tryed that and failed abysmally.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...39865858396162

[Saltysquidoon]

That's what honestly hurts the game, lazy players who aren't willing to read a guide and learn their class.

God bless your (misplaced) faith in humanity.

[crakerjack]

Gunna disregard your wild percentages. You or I have absolutely no clue what percent of the playerbase is skilled and which isn't. All I know is that the game is more fun when you play with better players. Playing with people who are a burden only makes the experience worse for everyone involved, except the person who is the burden. I honestly think cata dungeons were fine. They weren't challenging at all at release, just super punishing. None of the boss mechanics for any of the cata heroics were difficult once you saw them a couple times. You recognize the bosses attack patterns, utilize DBM and do the mechanics, simple. But if you didn't do the mechanic right, you were hit for a gazillion damage and died almost instantly. That's not hard, it's punishing.

I think the game should become harder, but in a progressive way. Start small and slowly inch your way until the game is at a point where the average player is better than they were a year ago. Outside of m+, raiding, and PvP, the game doesn't require the player to play optimally or efficiently. You can play like a total dunce and still get to where you're going. That scenario should never occur. If you're not playing your class right, you should die. If someone wants to quit WoW because they're unwilling to adapt and learn how to properly play, then good riddance. They're either a solo player or they play with people who don't mind dragging their dead weight through content.

There are countless easy to follow guides out there for every spec. There are simple guides and complex guides. It doesn't require hard work either. If you're going to play the game, you might as well practice playing it right. It's like learning to play a guitar but you only want to play one string because it's easier than using all 6 strings. Then when that person wants to join a jam session or some band, the people around them are looking at each other trying to decipher the situation.

[Saltysquidoon]

Gunna disregard your wild percentages. You or I have absolutely no clue what percent of the playerbase is skilled and which isn't. All I know is that the game is more fun when you play with better players. Playing with people who are a burden only makes the experience worse for everyone involved, except the person who is the burden.

I agree with everything you're saying and I wish it was the right way to go but it's just not. Every time blizzard challenges the playerbase they don't step up they whinge until the content gets slapped back down.

The simple fact is a great many players don't want to be better or care about playing right. Hell some people play exclusively to pet battle and collect mounts from legacy content.

I honestly think cata dungeons were fine. They weren't challenging at all at release, just super punishing. None of the boss mechanics for any of the cata heroics were difficult once you saw them a couple times. You recognize the bosses attack patterns, utilize DBM and do the mechanics, simple. But if you didn't do the mechanic right, you were hit for a gazillion damage and died almost instantly. That's not hard, it's punishing.

I don't know what this means TBH it seems like you're arguing semantics, punishing but not challenging?
Did you do erudax before the nerfs, that was a heroic level dps check (admittedly cheating the ilvl with pvp epics in your bag). What about ozruk and healers having to melee him? That's just a design oversight. Throngus was bugged and could just straight-up murder the tank. The sludge dude was a dps check. Baron ashbury has exacting interrupt requirements. The list goes on.

I mean I've been a Mythic raider for a long time (and heroic before that) and I'm not too proud to say the cata heroics were challenging especially in the appropriate levelling blues/greens.

[scelero]

I like the fact if this week, something didnt drop in a raid I can go do a M+ again and again until next reset.

Say in Wrath, I ran out of shit on my main and played a LOT of alts. I have no problem putting a lot of time into one toon this EXP and leaving my 'alts' at fresh 120.

[munkeyinorbit]

Isnt that a good thing though? You got an area for raiders who love raiding to progress, and you got a place for small group players to progress and be on decent footing.

That decent footing should be far below raiding. Why should a dungeon that is piss easy reward the same loot as raiding? Loot should all be LFR until you reach m+7. Then each dungeon should be locked for the week unless you hold the key. You can have your progression but not at the cost of raiding.

[Relapses]

You're arguing against points that werent made. Why?

Dude I quoted very clearly implied that Mythic raiders would gladly still raid Mythic just for the prestige. That is not the case. I'm not arguing against something that wasn't said because that is the same exact logic people who want templates for Mythic raiding use.

[Dakara]

Illustrates it rather well.

Raiding in my eyes should've stayed the sole progressions path end-game.

But nowadays, it's not there. The only progression path where it's relevant is in mythic ilvl. Since 475s drop from the weekly chests. Given enough time of derping around, you'll be decked at a relatively similar ilvl as most mythic raiders, which is a joke.

The 485 pieces and azerite make you stand out a bit more but to put that on the scale vs. just doing nothing basically is a bit broken.

I don't so much mind there being progression outside of the raids, but M+ is too rewarding.

Heroic Raiders would of gone into 8.3 with a 430-440 Ilvl depending on how much M+ they did. Maybe ~442 if they got a few Mythic pieces.
That's the equivalent of doing a +3-4 in Season 4.

Normal Ny'alotha drops 445 Gear. That's the Chest reward from a +3 or +5 End Dungeon.
Heroic at 460 is the same as a +7 Chest or +11 Drops... but a +8 would drop 455 with a 460 Chest and that's what we were farming in the first week or 2.
Raid bosses are loot locked, and require progression to kill. But M+? Farm the same dungeons we've already been doing for a year, without learning the new seasonal affix because it's only a +8? Easymode... And that was the weeks or so of "Raid Progression". You didn't even need to time it!

Basically, the lack of a loot lockout in M+ Combined with a Weekly Chest dropping Higher rewards than you were earning in the Dungeon and TR to buy 480 Azerite Pieces made it vastly more rewarding than raiding. Once you had AOTC, you basically had no reason to farm the raid aside from maybe Weapons/Trinkets for a few unlucky raiders who didn't yet have them.

If raiding rewarded a Weekly Cache, the same as M+, that gave a higher Ilvl reward (i.e. Heroic 470, Mythic 485) and rewarded TR, then perhaps it might see guilds continue to farm the raids each week.

At this point in the game, I don't do a +15 or higher for the 465 loot drops, I do it for the 475 Chest.

[Sarkli83]

Raiding feels meaningless because it's the end of xpack or because corruption has ruined the experience I could understand. But this?

[Depakote]

Post on your main account.

If you cant deal with the difficulty and time commitment with current WoW, play Classic or any non demanding games/genres.

M+ is popular no shit, its easy to get groups that match your own gear/skill-level, you can push or farm what ever you want. And while the external rating is by far not perfect it is a honest personal rating to gauge players you dont know if you want to push keys. Hidding in a raiding group with FOTM classes is much easier by comparison, because personal liability is that low in raiding.

Dont play the game if you dont like it. Asking for stupid easymode as the main game does not work with the current playerbase that is asking for more skill-demanding modes.

You're sure assuming a lot about the playerbase. honestly think a very limited amount of people actually do mythic raids and/or dungeons.

[cparle87]

The problem isnt that there are different progression paths.

Raids should feature the best loot in the game(strongest trinkets/set items/weapons)

HC ilvl should be obtainable from m+, mythic ilvl(or perhaps a bit lower) should be obtainable from weekly chest.

As long as the best trinkets/weapons/tier gear comes from raids the rest is fine.

PvP gear should have pvp power and as thus pvp/pve shouldnt be interchangeable.

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Nope. Pugging hc nyalotha is easier then doing a 15+. Most of the bosses in there are just free loot.

You're not guaranteed to get loot off any of the bosses, unless you're paying for a carrying. Doing a 15 you WILL get loot from the end of dungeon chest. There's that.

[Ange]

You're sure assuming a lot about the playerbase. honestly think a very limited amount of people actually do mythic raids and/or dungeons.

To make things clear, I will never ever assume that I know anything about the WHOLE WOW PLAYERBASE, because all I interact with are ACTIVE PLAYERS. I don't know or care about the huge amount of casual gamers that do what aver they can to avoid the main-game at all cost.

Blizzard knows them and they keep them busy with things like petbatles or whatever people do in 15mins of game time per week. Its good to have them, because it keeps the game going but its even better that those players are segregated from the active players and there is no interaction anymore.

If you enjoy raiding, challenge modes, high end pvp or mythic+ you compete against many thousands of players worldwide. WoW is just so big, that it still means you are in the top x% because there are so many players that actually dont play the main game.

No raider/pvp/m+ player is a special snowflake just because compared to the WHOLE PLAYERBASE they are a minority, its the other way around, people play a MMO that allows them to skipp the "MMO-part".

[The Butt Witch]

The purpose of all PVE is to gather gear so you can crush players in PVP.

[Osmeric]

So you want to kill the game? Only about 10% of all players are what you would call "good", if you deny the other 90% their progress they will not get better but quit. Making the game harder will not make the majority of players improve, early Cata tryed that and failed abysmally.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...39865858396162

The difficulty fetishists are incredible in their blindness to obvious logic. I mean, what the hell?!

[Relapses]

You're not guaranteed to get loot off any of the bosses, unless you're paying for a carrying. Doing a 15 you WILL get loot from the end of dungeon chest. There's that.

If you time the key you get 3 pieces of loot. If it's depleted, you get two. So it's not guaranteed you'll get loot.

[Urza1234]

5. I'm not judging you, but people who raid primarily for gear are not people I want in my raid. If those people have transitioned exclusively to m+ then they never really wanted to raid in the first place, did they?

Which is why hopefully raiding will die soon.

Unfortunately raiding still provides huge gear advantages in terms of a whole extra Azerite lockout per week and 10 free ilvls of gear(485 vs 475) that you cant get in M+.

Get rid of the gear handicap for raiding and we'll see how many people actually want to do that.

[Twdft]

If you time the key you get 3 pieces of loot. If it's depleted, you get two. So it's not guaranteed you'll get loot.

A timed 15 gives 5 items, depleted 4.