Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Tyris Flare]

That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.

That helps a lot at the start of the season but not as much as it goes on. Participation is still very high because it gives people something easier to pug than raids and allows smaller groups of friends to play whenever they want without waiting for ~15 other people.

Small content always has higher participation than big content, it's not really surprising. But m+ streams also draw far more YT views and game attention than any other mode the instant the world first race is over

[exsanguinate]

You are aware that, without those dungeons, they would still "dodge" raiding by not playing the game at all, right?

For ages dungeons were just a stepping stone to raiding, which was the only PvE endgame. Nowadays we finally have World Content, Raids, Battlegrounds,Dungeons and whatever solo stuff Blizzard cooks up (Horrific Visions, Torghast, etc). Viable paths that reward according to their difficulty.

Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.

[enigma77]

Good. Raiding is only fun when doing Mythic raiding, Lfr is the worst crap ever.

Mythic + is fun for everyone and is the new way of playing pve now.

[Eapoe]

And I've seen raiding guilds suffer because some wanted to just raid. They fell behind because they weren't gearing in M+, and this caused the more progressed players to leave.

If raid progression is tuned around gear from M+. M+ is no longer optional for raiding.

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That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.

Yes, I agree, but the rest of my post, that you left out for some reason, addresses the issue with a possible solution. Now, I doubt Blizzard would ever implement that as it keeps participation numbers up in multiple areas of the game; however, it would still be a decent fix to an issue of perceived mandatory content.

- - - Updated - - -

Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.

Except before the introduction of LFR many of the playerbase never even stepped foot into raid. There was a smaller percentage that made it past the first few bosses. An even smaller percentage that actually cleared. An even smaller percentage that cleared the hardest difficulty.
Ignoring most of that, focus on the first part where many gamers never even stepped foot into a raid due to the issue of even getting started. LFR was made for them, so they could also experience the raid and story that goes with it.

[munkeyinorbit]

yeah but it would be 15 less until the next tier...in an expansion with 4 tiers,those ilvls add up imensely

That is completly wrong. With one less difficulty the highest gear in the entire expansion will be only 15 ilvl less than with 4 difficulties. The last mythic raid would drop 460+ gear not 475+ gear if bfa had 3 difficulties and normal started with 355 ilvl.

[kamuimac]

good news. in shadowlands loot will end up being more rare. only 1 weekly box for everyone. reduced loot in raids and m+. just lego mats from torghast (and cosmetics) you can grind pvp for currency to buy gear i guess. thats pretty much it except world quests and crafted gear.

have fun.

im sure people will have fun ... while playing other games.

making loot harder to get will for sure work wonders in world of gaming of 2021 :0

what a beautiful disaster in making

[munkeyinorbit]

Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.

If the purpose is to be supplement or alternative to raiding then it clearly isn't working. It's acting as the replacement for raiding. If you can reliably do 15s you get better gear than heroic raiding. With how easy 15s are, shit tier players are getting the second best gear in the game. Rewards are out of kilter with skill and effort required.

[Jester Joe]

That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.

More accessible and far less players involved to end up with a few deadweights screwing it up more like. Easier in ways, yes. But "much easier" is going a bit far I'd say. +15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.

Yes, I agree, but the rest of my post, that you left out for some reason, addresses the issue with a possible solution. Now, I doubt Blizzard would ever implement that as it keeps participation numbers up in multiple areas of the game; however, it would still be a decent fix to an issue of perceived mandatory content.

Dropping item levels like that would end up making the player feel awful overall. It gives no way to actually try out other forms of gameplay besides starting from the complete bottom and climbing all the way up, which isn't how it should work.

A Mythic raider should be able to move into PvP and still hold their weight at decent levels of play with their gear.

[Kralljin]

Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.

They killed off 10man Heroic raiding, despite being more popular than 25man...so not necessarily an argument.

[Osmeric]

+15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.

The weekly chest at 15 is M raid level.

[Frozenbeef]

Considering how little and stagnant wow endgame currently is, it's probably not wise to get rid of a large portion of it.

[A Chozo]

Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.

Let's ignore that part about speaking for the majority because you know damn well I'm referring to a real part of the playerbase, independently of it's size.

Blizzard didn't had a "wonderfully working system". If they had it, they wouldn't have spent all this time creating a infra-structure that supports more endgame routes. People complained all the time that the only thing to do at the endgame was raiding, especially during WoD. Raids of Warcraft was the name of the game.

People doing Mythic+ aren't "doing nothing", they are doing content and being rewarded according to the difficulty of content. Of course some players may feel threatened because how dare others get cool rewards too but that's only natural - Blizzard shouldn't cater to envious elitists just because they think Bobjoe doesn't deserve a gear upgrade after doing 15 +20 dungeons this week.

[Eapoe]

More accessible and far less players involved to end up with a few deadweights screwing it up more like. Easier in ways, yes. But "much easier" is going a bit far I'd say. +15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.



Dropping item levels like that would end up making the player feel awful overall. It gives no way to actually try out other forms of gameplay besides starting from the complete bottom and climbing all the way up, which isn't how it should work.

A Mythic raider should be able to move into PvP and still hold their weight at decent levels of play with their gear.

PvP players would disagree with you. Some PvP players don’t want to have to raid to get BiS trinkets and gear, and many ask for vendors with equal raid gear all the time. Some PvE players also don’t want to have to do PvP content to get their BiS items. Some players that just want to focus m+ don’t want to step into either.
Again, I’m not saying it’s a perfect fix because you can’t appease everyone; however, the way I put it makes it so people who WANT to do those things have the option to (yes it can be a grind getting multiple sets), instead of players NEEDING to do those things.

[mauserr]

You better accept that Mythic+ is here to stay and that it's more popular than Raiding for the average player. With M+ you are locked to 465 gear from the chest, so basically Heroic level loot, and one random 475 item per week if you complete a +15 key which is hilariously out of reach for most of the playerbase if they don't purchase a boost. For a Mythic raid you get what, 4 pieces of loot per boss? That's 48 pieces of loot per week for your guild. That's an average of 2.4 pieces of loot per person every week. Random is random, you might get an upgrade, or you might not, but it's the same with the weekly chest.

Heroic raiding might have seen a drop in participation from people that had no other choice before (now they can choose M+) and maybe the trashiest of Mythic raiding (like first 3-4 freebie bosses by the end of the raid tier) took a tiny bit of a hit. Not much other than that.

[Jester Joe]

The weekly chest at 15 is M raid level.

That would be why I said 15s themselves, not the weekly reward. I play the game enough to know the details about it.

There's a reason why the weekly chest is being reworked, because a random 475 a week is frustrating and not reliable.

It's equal to Mythic level gear sure, but it's not a reliable way to get the 475s that you want.

PvP players would disagree with you. Some PvP players don’t want to have to raid to get BiS trinkets and gear, and many ask for vendors with equal raid gear all the time. Some PvE players also don’t want to have to do PvP content to get their BiS items. Some players that just want to focus m+ don’t want to step into either.
Again, I’m not saying it’s a perfect fix because you can’t appease everyone; however, the way I put it makes it so people who WANT to do those things have the option to (yes it can be a grind getting multiple sets), instead of players NEEDING to do those things.

That isn't disagreeing with what I said, because nowhere did I say "you should have to do PvE to PvP". I'm saying you shouldn't be horribly gimped in PvP because you did PvE. Just like the other way around should also be true, and part of why PvP specific stats really suck because they become dead stats when you enter PvE, which was why Cataclysm also had a stigma against PvP methods of gearing to do PvE.

[Gaidax]

Mythic Raiding is still by far the best gear output for the time invested.

Not even to mention there are very exclusive raid items you simply have no replacement for in M+ or other activities. For example in 8.3 it's all the 485 pieces from 2 last bosses and in 8.2 it is Font of Azshara/Coral.

[Kralljin]

You better accept that Mythic+ is here to stay and that it's more popular than Raiding for the average player.

Things that award equivalent loot and require fewer players tend to be more popular, that's nothing new.

If there was a solo game mode that consistently awards Heroic Ilvl without any lockout alongside a chest which contains Mythic Ilvl, i'd guess the M+ participation is going to drop as well.

Mythic Raiding is still by far the best gear output for the time invested.

No, it's not.

Especially if you are in a guild that actually wants to kill the final boss of a tier, Mythic raiding is not worth the time investment considering what you get out of it.

[Gaidax]

No, it's not.

Especially if you are in a guild that actually wants to kill the final boss of a tier, Mythic raiding is not worth the time investment considering what you get out of it.

Ha ha, funny.

Of course it is - everything that drops is top ilvl and every half-decent guild Mythic clears half a raid already by week 3 of the raid being out and it only snowballs harder from there. You may run a bunch of M+ at the very start of patch to pick up a bunch of random ass items that are a hair better than Heroic raid, but after that Mythic raiding is simply giving you superior loot.

You say "no it's not", but I'm the one who have 3x485 pieces in my armory + a mandatory raid trinket from 8.2 mythic raid, way out of reach of shitty random M+ crap

[Kralljin]

Of course it is - everything that drops is top ilvl and every half-decent guild Mythic clears half a raid already by week 3 of the raid being out and it only snowballs harder from there.

Clearing the raid by week three is like, what? World 50 or something?

So yeah, if you're in that sort of guild, the time investment into actually maintaining that is pretty high.

You say "no it's not", but I'm the one who have 3x485 pieces in my armory

It is because i've seen it myself.

If you're just doing your weekly M+, you will also get decent Mythic equivalent items sooner or later.
For what investment? Doing a single M+15 per week.

From of mine played some alts by just doing weekly M+ and they were only like ~5 Ilvl behind characters that raid Mythic.

Now compare that how much time you're putting into Mythic raiding.
The time you spent on killing the final boss already trumps what a lot of people are playing in a single month.

a mandatory raid trinket from 8.2 mythic raid, way out of reach of shitty random M+ crap

EP Trinkets aren't BiS for every spec and aren't necessarily that far ahead.

They're better for some, but considering the time investment of it takes to maintain your position to maintain your position in a Mythic raid, they're not worth it.

The amount of time that goes into Mythic raiding no longer has any relation to its rewards, especially if we include the final boss.

[deenman]

That is completly wrong. With one less difficulty the highest gear in the entire expansion will be only 15 ilvl less than with 4 difficulties. The last mythic raid would drop 460+ gear not 475+ gear if bfa had 3 difficulties and normal started with 355 ilvl.

you may need a refund on that math education,if a difficulty was gone,it would be -15 per tier, bfa had uldir,dazalor,palace and nyalotha,thats -60 ilvls by the end