Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Jackstraw]

No it does not.

Gear coming out of raid is generally stronger, and in the past tier sets have been significant in increasing a class' performance, with today's equivalent being Azerite and essences.
Don't even get me started on trinkets, on how Drestagath impacted how the game gets played outside the raid.

That's not counting the whole package of achievements, mounts and titles. And all the hype regarding the world first race, which gives a raid a feeling of prestige and competition M+ retains only by MSI standards, which are constantly revisited due to the nature of the content.

Also, and that's probably the biggest thing, cosmetics.

Starting Legion, mythic has a unique setup to its sets and gear pieces. Setup that's not matched by anything in the game until the content is easily farmable.
And when an expansion ends and itemlevel stops being significant, what's left is cosmetics. There's a reason challenge mode sets are still being sported left right and center.

To be honest, most of the arguments agreeing with OP seem to come off somebody who seldom stepped foot in a raid in any given expansion, or that simply does not care for the state of the game.

Want to have a proper raid discussion?
Debate the necessity for 20man raid slots as opposed to, say, 15 or 10.

#teamparagon

[goldlock]

Doesn't this further support the point i'm making?
I mean, yeah you can kill the early Mythic bosses with a pug, but it further reinforces the point that you can just wait until Mythic opens up and then dabble into the first Mythic bosses.

The later bosses do not necessarily drop better loot, even final bosses such as G'huun & Jaina were famously not farmed by a lot of hardcore guilds because the effort was not worth the rewards.

I've never heard of end bosses not being farmed...

I find that extremely odd on ones that drop mounts since selling those usually is how mythic guild refill their coffers.

[Kralljin]

Except chances of getting a +15 done early in the season were also low unless you were a mythic raider in the first place.

Considering the Ilvl difference by the end of a tier wasn't that huge, i don't think so.
You only had to complete it, not do it intime for the chest.

You had to be a bit more picky with the choice of your dungeons, but that's about it.

Just like you can potentially just find another guild instead.

You have also take into account that you might have to transfer and your own schedule needs to fit to the guild, that obviously is another factor which limits your options.

Except you're oversimplifying what I'm saying to try to prove a point.

I'm not, your fundamental argument is just false, because the weekly chest in itself is something has only existed since Legion.
And the Azerite vendor is a BfA thing, so yeah.

WoW has always operated on making it easier to do things later in the long run.

Giving you gear from the highest content despite not partaking in it is new however.

The only thing that did that previously was the Garrison in the first WoD tier, where the weekly mission gave you loot one tier above you're currently progressing in.
Something that was changed with HFC to actually having to kill at least 10 bosses from the difficulty you want the loot.

And mind you, that was a really controversial mechanic.

You took that claim, made it into a "well it's never been this bad, not in the span of 1-3 months!" while missing we're far more than that into 8.3

That argument wasn't made in reference to 8.3 however, it was made in reference to BfA as a whole.

yet missing that MoP even had the upgrade system that allowed you to make your normal gear on par with heroic while not doing any content close to that in difficulty.

And the heroic pieces could upgraded even further...so where's the point there?
This is one zero sum argument if i've ever seen one.

Source.

Check the numbers on wowprogress.
Especially the heroic ones and compare them with the ones from Legion.

Let's not pretend he's completely useless.

That's not what i said, so stop that black and white painting.
Does he drop something that stands leaps and bounds what you can get from other sources as well?

The Wand is kinda pointless considering the corruption vendor and unless you really want a piece with Heart of Corruption, that Azerite piece is not relevant either.
The shield also isn't that great considering the alternative is a BoE, which you can buy off the AH.

It just goes back to the orignal point of me, does he drop upgrades? Yeah he does, are they actually worth the time investment? Not so much in my opinion.

They changed the entire way dungeons are ran.

No real mechanics are being changed, only what you pull.

You could also just straight up kill these mobs and ignore the mechanic entirely.
The affix did not any sort of difficulty to the dungeon.

pugs are a thing, yes. And it doesn't carry the weight of someone killing your key, if someone's underperforming on Wrathion they can just be kicked and nothing is screwed up.

That's pretty much only the case if someone decides to drop the group entirely, depleting it doesn't affect your weekly chest.
Even then, you can still go for another dungeon.

In raiding, you're not even getting that sort of consolation prize.

And even destro still uses it decently, it makes for good flexibility when you can't reliably channel font or want to double on use trinket.
https://nyalotha.subcreation.net/des...ck-mythic.html

Oh boy, what a trinket, wiping 300 times on a boss to get a trinket that's *on occassion* good!

You'd expect that these sorts of items are best in almost any situation, or at least be the items that sims the best in a patchwerk situation (without any drawback).

You know, stuff like Unerring Vision, Black blood of Y'shaarj, Gurthalak, and so forth.

The only comparable trinket at the time was opus trinket which was heavily screwed up by anyone without one coming near.

That trinket was replaced pretty early into 8.2, not useable during progression anyway because it was far too much of hassle to play around.

You said it yourself, someone could screw up the trinket anyway.

And I don't really take the idea of fishing for one on heroic as an excuse because that was true for everything at the time if you desperately wanted a piece.

Considering Uu'nat was probably one of the most difficult bosses in WoW, i think that needs to be taken into consideration.
I mean, point that the trinket being a double edged sword is also a big factor, it's not like it was a straight upgrade in every situation.

And those were just examples, you seem to have a fixation on trying to dismiss examples missing that there's far more from the bosses.

In the same vein, you're grasping at straws to actually portray that mythic raiding is still that super awesome.

Like Ill'gynoth loot? C'mon, it's not good and you know it.

I've never heard of end bosses not being farmed...

Then you haven't been following what hardcore guilds are doing post progression.
Also happened on KJ, until Blizzard nerfed KJ multiple times again.

Those bosses are a pain to farm until Blizzard nerfs them multiple times, so why put in the effort for gear that you throw away during the first day of the newest patch anyway?

I find that extremely odd on ones that drop mounts since selling those usually is how mythic guild refill their coffers.

G'huun didn't drop a mount and both were a pain to farm.
You can also just sell Jaina now, rather than during 8.1.

Unless you can easily carry those people, it's just more time efficient to boost people through heroic, which hardcore can do anyway because they have an army of alts.

[goldlock]

Considering the Ilvl difference by the end of a tier wasn't that huge, i don't think so.
You only had to complete it, not do it intime for the chest.

You had to be a bit more picky with the choice of your dungeons, but that's about it.

You have also take into account that you might have to transfer and your own schedule needs to fit to the guild, that obviously is another factor which limits your options.

I'm not, your fundamental argument is just false, because the weekly chest in itself is something has only existed since Legion.
And the Azerite vendor is a BfA thing, so yeah.

Giving you gear from the highest content despite not partaking in it is new however.

The only thing that did that previously was the Garrison in the first WoD tier, where the weekly mission gave you loot one tier above you're currently progressing in.
Something that was changed with HFC to actually having to kill at least 10 bosses from the difficulty you want the loot.

And mind you, that was a really controversial mechanic.

That argument wasn't made in reference to 8.3 however, it was made in reference to BfA as a whole.

And the heroic pieces could upgraded even further...so where's the point there?
This is one zero sum argument if i've ever seen one.


Check the numbers on wowprogress.
Especially the heroic ones and compare them with the ones from Legion.

That's not what i said, so stop that black and white painting.
Does he drop something that stands leaps and bounds what you can get from other sources as well?

The Wand is kinda pointless considering the corruption vendor and unless you really want a piece with Heart of Corruption, that Azerite piece is not relevant either.
The shield also isn't that great considering the alternative is a BoE, which you can buy off the AH.

It just goes back to the orignal point of me, does he drop upgrades? Yeah he does, are they actually worth the time investment? Not so much in my opinion.

No real mechanics are being changed, only what you pull.

You could also just straight up kill these mobs and ignore the mechanic entirely.
The affix did not any sort of difficulty to the dungeon.

That's pretty much only the case if someone decides to drop the group entirely, depleting it doesn't affect your weekly chest.
Even then, you can still go for another dungeon.

In raiding, you're not even getting that sort of consolation prize.

Oh boy, what a trinket, wiping 300 times on a boss to get a trinket that's *on occassion* good!

You'd expect that these sorts of items are best in almost any situation, or at least be the items that sims the best in a patchwerk situation (without any drawback).

You know, stuff like Unerring Vision, Black blood of Y'shaarj, Gurthalak, and so forth.

That trinket was replaced pretty early into 8.2, not useable during progression anyway because it was far too much of hassle to play around.

You said it yourself, someone could screw up the trinket anyway.

Considering Uu'nat was probably one of the most difficult bosses in WoW, i think that needs to be taken into consideration.
I mean, point that the trinket being a double edged sword is also a big factor, it's not like it was a straight upgrade in every situation.

In the same vein, you're grasping at straws to actually portray that mythic raiding is still that super awesome.

Like Ill'gynoth loot? C'mon, it's not good and you know it.

Then you haven't been following what hardcore guilds are doing post progression.
Also happened on KJ, until Blizzard nerfed KJ multiple times again.

Those bosses are a pain to farm until Blizzard nerfs them multiple times, so why put in the effort for gear that you throw away during the first day of the newest patch anyway?

G'huun didn't drop a mount and both were a pain to farm.
You can also just sell Jaina now, rather than during 8.1.

Unless you can easily carry those people, it's just more time efficient to boost people through heroic, which hardcore can do anyway because they have an army of alts.

I can't speak for every mythic guild but your examples seem skewed...

[Kralljin]

I can't speak for every mythic guild but your examples seem skewed...

It's been happening, but fact is that the loot itself is barely worth killing those bosses and they're pretty difficult speaks for itself.

[Swnem]

Well... i'm not gonna read this whole thread but does the OP know that mythic raid drops 485 gear too?

[goldlock]

It's been happening, but fact is that the loot itself is barely worth killing those bosses and they're pretty difficult speaks for itself.

It is just... its kinda weird to hear about a mythic raid group being that obsessed with gear.

[Kralljin]

It is just... its kinda weird to hear about a mythic raid group being that obsessed with gear.

Because the gear treadmill for hardcore guilds is over after the final boss kisses the ground, after that, it's just for parsing because the next patch usually pulls a soft reset anyway.

Especially if the final boss doesn't even drop a higher Ilvl, all you could grab were just secondary stat upgrades sometimes.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Raiding doesn't feel meaningless, I think the Mythic+ gear IMO should have limits(I just don't know what). I usually mostly have issues with stats are on gear(The secondaries). Sometimes tuning between normal and heroic is.. too spikey but that depends on each boss fight so its not always the same. Thats all I have on my mind.

[Jester Joe]

Considering the Ilvl difference by the end of a tier wasn't that huge, i don't think so.
You only had to complete it, not do it intime for the chest.

Good luck getting a key to +15 if you're not timing it in the first place.

You can't just get a +15s key. You keep on missing that.

You have also take into account that you might have to transfer and your own schedule needs to fit to the guild, that obviously is another factor which limits your options.

Considering how condensed the servers are for Mythic raiding, you won't have to transfer. And again, you're ignoring that pug groups exist.

I'm not, your fundamental argument is just false, because the weekly chest in itself is something has only existed since Legion.
And the Azerite vendor is a BfA thing, so yeah.

And again, you conveniently ignore what is being said to keep harping on JUST mythic+. This isn't even worth discussing anymore, the point was Blizzard in GENERAL makes the game more approachable as time goes on in a patch. Whether it was through stuff like catch up gear in TBC even, to world quest gear being raised in BfA, there has always been an underlying theme of content becoming easier as you wait longer.

Giving you gear from the highest content despite not partaking in it is new however.

The only thing that did that previously was the Garrison in the first WoD tier, where the weekly mission gave you loot one tier above you're currently progressing in.
Something that was changed with HFC to actually having to kill at least 10 bosses from the difficulty you want the loot.

So you admit it's hardly new.

That argument wasn't made in reference to 8.3 however, it was made in reference to BfA as a whole.

And again, it's hardly a new idea that content gets easier as you wait.
Look at ICC and DS for stacking buffs to help the group clear the raid.

And the heroic pieces could upgraded even further...so where's the point there?
This is one zero sum argument if i've ever seen one.

Because it's easier for you to dismiss nitpicked points, yes.

Check the numbers on wowprogress.
Especially the heroic ones and compare them with the ones from Legion.

They're really not that far off from each other, and what's even more funny is that you specifically say "Well look at heroic!" when we're discussing mythic which still has a similar retention rate, so clearly people see the point to raiding Mythic.

That's not what i said, so stop that black and white painting.
Does he drop something that stands leaps and bounds what you can get from other sources as well?

Then why are you bringing it up

To try to show that it isn't worth doing, and then when it's pointed out he has gear of value you go "WELL I NEVER SAID IT WAS COMPLETELY USELESS!"

The Wand is kinda pointless considering the corruption vendor and unless you really want a piece with Heart of Corruption, that Azerite piece is not relevant either.
The shield also isn't that great considering the alternative is a BoE, which you can buy off the AH.

A wand that always has a corruption at the highest item level, and your point is "Well you can buy the corruption"? You're still ignoring the item level, and how much investment you have to put in to buy the corruption and how long you have to wait to do so.

And bringing up the BoE shield as a point even shows further how cherrypicking you are, since there has always been heroic BoEs from raids yet you intentionally dodged around that in terms of Cata to say "you have to do the harder content to get it" yet you could buy BoEs then too, so let's not go there.

It just goes back to the orignal point of me, does he drop upgrades? Yeah he does, are they actually worth the time investment? Not so much in my opinion.

Emphasizing for the point here. Your opinion.

To others it clearly is worth the time, so to keep parading as if people are wrong for preferring the speed that Mythic allows you to gear at while also enjoy the challenge it presents is just silly, since you keep acting as if your opinion is fact.

No real mechanics are being changed, only what you pull.

You could also just straight up kill these mobs and ignore the mechanic entirely.
The affix did not any sort of difficulty to the dungeon.

Did I say mechanics? Or did I say the way the dungeon is ran. Because the routes certainly did change a hell of a lot, and they even change weekly depending on affixes/pillar bosses.

And it's good for you that you don't find them challenging, but it definitely adds another layer of challenge/complexity when you try to decide if you should leave a pillar up to fight with the boss, and how well you can handle it.

That's pretty much only the case if someone decides to drop the group entirely, depleting it doesn't affect your weekly chest.
Even then, you can still go for another dungeon.

Which means you have to raise the key level again, find someone who can actually push the key back up to a 15 with you, and try again. Again, time investment.

In raiding, you're not even getting that sort of consolation prize.

But you have 12 chances at 475 gear instead of just 1 piece that could be another socket you already have better gear for.

Oh boy, what a trinket, wiping 300 times on a boss to get a trinket that's *on occassion* good!

Again, you have a strange fixation on cherrypicking points to counter.
Almost every caster has it being used in several top parses.
Hell it's showing as the most used trinket for Affliction and Balance.

But because "destro/fire" was mentioned you're harping on that, ignoring the fact that I said there's more casters.

Mind you, you're also ignoring that only mage seems to get strong usage out of dungeon trinkets, otherwise everyone uses trinkets from the raid.
So there goes your idea of raiding not being worth it if you care about pushing gear up.

You'd expect that these sorts of items are best in almost any situation, or at least be the items that sims the best in a patchwerk situation (without any drawback).

You know, stuff like Unerring Vision, Black blood of Y'shaarj, Gurthalak, and so forth.

So just like a ton of Nya'lotha gear.
Seriously, why are you ignoring HOW MANY CLASSES rely on gear from the raid?

Hell, do you realize how many classes actually do run at least 1 Heart of Darkness? It's a strong Azerite trait for a lot of specs. Which you can only get from raiding.

Let me be clear here. You cannot keep saying that gear should be the strongest, and then keep saying that it's fine to settle for less. The raid has the strongest gear. Flat out. But you're saying "It's not worth pushing for that extra edge of the best gear" while also trying to lament saying the best gear should come from the raid.

That trinket was replaced pretty early into 8.2, not useable during progression anyway because it was far too much of hassle to play around.

You said it yourself, someone could screw up the trinket anyway.

8.2 is pretty irrelevant here since Uu'nat was part of 8.1. Replacing old gear is to be expected with new tiers.

Considering Uu'nat was probably one of the most difficult bosses in WoW, i think that needs to be taken into consideration.
I mean, point that the trinket being a double edged sword is also a big factor, it's not like it was a straight upgrade in every situation.

And the sliver was also a double edged sword, if someone moved onto you, it's dead.

Also on top of that, the challenge is PART of why it's worth doing. You act as if gear is the only reason.

In the same vein, you're grasping at straws to actually portray that mythic raiding is still that super awesome.

Like Ill'gynoth loot? C'mon, it's not good and you know it.

So I'm imagining the fun I have Mythic raiding, and I must be imagining that Ill'gnyoth has my all around BiS azerite helm for warlocks in general.

Then you haven't been following what hardcore guilds are doing post progression.
Also happened on KJ, until Blizzard nerfed KJ multiple times again.

Those bosses are a pain to farm until Blizzard nerfs them multiple times, so why put in the effort for gear that you throw away during the first day of the newest patch anyway?

I know this was to someone else, but this is really really highlight how this is a you issue.

You only care about the gear. You don't seem to care at all for the challenge, or the effort.
You just want the gear with the path of least resistance. Which is fine, but you'll always fall behind people who put in the extra effort for the gear and it will show. So you can hardly claim that it's not worth doing the content just because you don't want to.

G'huun didn't drop a mount and both were a pain to farm.
You can also just sell Jaina now, rather than during 8.1.

Unless you can easily carry those people, it's just more time efficient to boost people through heroic, which hardcore can do anyway because they have an army of alts.

And yet Jaina carries were sold for far more back in 8.1.

[goldlock]

Because the gear treadmill for hardcore guilds is over after the final boss kisses the ground, after that, it's just for parsing because the next patch usually pulls a soft reset anyway.

Especially if the final boss doesn't even drop a higher Ilvl, all you could grab were just secondary stat upgrades sometimes.

I mean... ive been in quite a few mythic guilds and ive never seen this mentality take hold.

[Kralljin]

Good luck getting a key to +15 if you're not timing it in the first place.

Huh?
Ever checked the LFD tool on monday / tuesday night? Bunch of groups always looking for a "weekly run" or "no leavers", both of which are keywords for the thing not being intime.

You can't just get a +15s key. You keep on missing that.

Neither can you walk into a Mythic guild.
You keep missing on that.

Considering how condensed the servers are for Mythic raiding, you won't have to transfer.

And if you're on a server that doesn't have a Mythic guild or the guilds on your server have a schedule that doesn't fit yours?

Seriously, when you present an argument like this, do actually take a step back and think: Could there be a potential flaw?
This is grasping at straws.

And again, you're ignoring that pug groups exist.

I'm not, they just further support that you can just wait until Blizzard opens up things for you, because Mythic pugs happening before the removal of the Famed Slayer title aren't that super common.

Whether it was through stuff like catch up gear in TBC even, to world quest gear being raised in BfA, there has always been an underlying theme of content becoming easier as you wait longer.

At this point it has absolutely no point to further argue with you.

Because i repeat: There were no the mechanics that in previous expansions awarded loot that is equivalent to that of the highest difficulty within the current tier without actually ever enganging in that tier.

You can go on about Catchup all you like, that's not it, it's the fact that can get gear from the hardest content without actually participating in the hardest content.

So you admit it's hardly new.

This level of dishonesty is utterly baffling.

Have you actually read the entire paragraph?
They removed that mechanic after the first tier of WoD, after that, you needed kills on Mythic bosses to earn Mythic loot and certain Mythic Loot (such as Tier sets) was still offlimits.
You couldn't even get Archimonde loot from the Mission table, which was a big deal due to those Class trinkets.

Like seriously, arguing against this sort mental gymnastics is utterly pointless.
You literally ignore the last sentence of the paragraph that you're quoting, which undermines your very point and then go "aha! So you admit it!".

I mean... ive been in quite a few mythic guilds and ive never seen this mentality take hold.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Jester Joe]

At this point it has absolutely no point to further argue with you.

There's no point discussing this with you man.

You keep trying to harp on how I'm being dishonest, yet you cherry pick.

Because they changed a way to get higher gear, you dismiss that it ever existed in the first place. Because that suits your argument more. You ignore how much of your post is opinionated, to keep ignoring how far superior the raiding gear is.

Because you just ignore the fact that you can pug Mythic raiding, yet you still keep insisting how you can pug m+.

You are not actually discussing it at this point.
You're nitpicking what fits your point of view, and dismissing anyone who disagrees without actually giving any proof besides "it's how I feel" and when the facts are shown to be the opposite of what you're saying, you just cut that out and keep cherrypicking.

[Gaidax]

With all the time you wasted on this silly back and forth, I could easily gear alt in a full set of Mythic raiding gear already. Probably even two.

[OokOok]

There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy.

Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time

[HolyCowBro]

Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time

How about easy compared to current relevant content?

[INVASMANIXOXOXO]

Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time

There wasn't really a heroic Malygos it was only 10 or 25 man, and it was pretty easy honestly it was the only boss that entire first patch that would be even in the same category as a heroic fight these days. Most guilds crushed it pretty easily, OS 3 drake was the only fight that would be equivalent to a mythic fight today that was one fight though. The rest of that tier was actually hilariously easy, I think Method killed it all in 14 hours or something absurd. But I do agree with your overall sentiment the hardmodes on the back half of Ulduar and back half of heroic were very far from trivial from what I remember. 0 lights in particular in particular seemed really daunting, I feel like H Lich King was mainly hard at the start due to limited attempts.

I will admit though while I did do hardmodes/heroic ICC I never made it to 0 lights/h lich king but I would say those would be comparable to modern end mythic bosses. I think if we cycle through from Classic up through ICC the back half of sunwell kind of marked the real shift to the difficulty levels we see today. Up until then besides kael'thas at the start any decent guild could brute force the content through gearing even while carrying 10+ pretty bad players (especially by modern standards).

[kranur]

I think having multiple options to gear up is great. WoW is a massive and should not simply be world of raidcraft like it was in the past, especially when it provides multiple types of content.

Being able to play whatever part you like from it and being able to also progress your character by doing it is good. Why ruin the game for people that have the time and skill to mainly raid mythic by dumbing it down? Or make the game stale for those that don't? When they can just co-exist.

[Tiwack]

The more gearing/difficulty options as possible that they can handle the better. The real problem is the shade players toss at each other for not being on their level/the stereotypes that go with the tiers dividing player groups.

[Amarys]

. How does M+ existing diminish raiding? If you want to push high keys you're going to need trinkets from raids and if you want to raid at your best you at least need the 15 chest for gear.

I think this here is the real problem as well as the fact that a guild can't progress from heroic raiding to mythic without dumping up to 20 players. I hate M+ and don't wanna do them but because of the chest, I feel like I have to.

Raiding with my guild is chill. There's always a spot for me, people I know, it's fun. However lagging behind with gear is not fun cause my guild used to have 3 groups.

The beginner/alt raid. Anyone could join if there were spots and this group mainly did normal and sometimes hc later in the patch.

The main raid group. Mostly progressed heroic and cleared it fairly quick every week.

And finally a mythic group lead by another leader as the GM didn't want to deal with it due to the different format and to avoid drama. You had to be really well geared to get into that group and gear up fast as it would fill up fast. The only way to do that was to also grind M+.