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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?
    Good luck getting 470+ in a few days by spamming M+, genius.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Good luck getting 470+ in a few days by spamming M+, genius.
    Oh sorry, 465 at minimum. And yes, you can get to FULL 465+ in a week via spamming M+. I'm sorry you're an LFR hero and don't have the proper io to get into 15s, but that's a you problem.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    Oh sorry, 465 at minimum. And yes, you can get to FULL 465+ in a week via spamming M+. I'm sorry you're an LFR hero and don't have the proper io to get into 15s, but that's a you problem.
    Yeah sure tough guy.

    https://raider.io/characters/eu/khaz-modan/Barzotti

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    kekw.

    Anyway, you must just be mentally inept. You can quite literally spam M+ all day long and get 465 gear so like idk what your thought process is.

  5. #325
    I found raiding became bland with the removal of tier set. It was nice having exclusive gear with some form or class integration. Azerite armor tried but you could get that from everything.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    kekw.

    Anyway, you must just be mentally inept. You can quite literally spam M+ all day long and get 465 gear so like idk what your thought process is.
    Haha that sweet backpedaling

    On topic: top raiding gear is still vastly superior to M+ gear (stats/corruption/ilvl wise) so I don't see how raiding feels meaningless. They complement each other well. And if people want to spam M+, an activity with strong diminishing returns, well, let them be? They will have 465 gear with probably shitty stats, shitty corruption, the same way you disenchant almost every one of the 5 masks runs gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hero2Zer0 View Post
    I found raiding became bland with the removal of tier set. It was nice having exclusive gear with some form or class integration. Azerite armor tried but you could get that from everything.
    With the removal of tier sets raiding became less mandatory. And you can effectively get bis azerite pieces through the vendor, but targeting your BiS pieces is so expensive that raiding is still vastly more efficient. M+ azerite is poor man's raiding azerite unless you're quite lucky with azerite gambling. It was a problem when people spammed M+ because some M+ trinkets were the best available (balefire branch-ignition fuse), but not anymore I think.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:02 PM.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Haha that sweet backpedaling

    On topic: top raiding gear is still vastly superior to M+ gear (stats/corruption/ilvl wise) so I don't see how raiding feels meaningless. They complement each other well. And if people want to spam M+, an activity with strong diminishing returns, well, let them be? They will have 465 gear with probably shitty stats, shitty corruption, the same way you disenchant almost every one of the 5 masks runs gear.



    With the removal of tier sets raiding became less mandatory. And you can effectively get bis azerite pieces through the vendor, but targeting your BiS pieces is so expensive that raiding is still vastly more efficient. M+ azerite is poor man's raiding azerite unless you're quite lucky with azerite gambling. It was a problem when some M+ trinkets were the best available (balefire branch-ignition fuse), but not anymore I think.
    6 timed 15s is nothing to boast about, but okay lol.

    Anyway, "raid or die" has effectively gone away because you can quite literally get gear faster than ever before. Back in WotLK? That was raid or die. Your gear of choice if you didn't raid was ilvl 200 heroic dungeon gear.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    6 timed 15s is nothing to boast about, but okay lol.

    Anyway, "raid or die" has effectively gone away because you can quite literally get gear faster than ever before. Back in WotLK? That was raid or die. Your gear of choice if you didn't raid was ilvl 200 heroic dungeon gear.
    I never boasted about timing some weekly keys before I stopped playing and I have never been an incredible player but it's far from "LFR hero". "Raid or die" has effectively disappeared and allowing alternate paths of gearing is an excellent thing in my opinion. However, if people want to be competitive (whether it's for M+ or pvp), raiding is mandatory still and vastly more efficient to gear a character quickly and optimally.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    I never boasted about timing some weekly keys before I stopped playing and I have never been an incredible player but it's far from "LFR hero". "Raid or die" has effectively disappeared and allowing alternate paths of gearing is an excellent thing in my opinion. However, if people want to be competitive (whether it's for M+ or pvp), raiding is mandatory still and vastly more efficient to gear a character quickly and optimally.
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long? I can completely gear a toon with Mythic+ in less than a week, whereas raiding gives me 4 pieces of gear per week

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long? I can completely gear a toon with Mythic+ in less than a week, whereas raiding gives me 4 pieces of gear per week
    Except there's still some weird disconnect here.

    There's the assumption "you can spam +15s to get 465+ in a day". Technically true, yes.

    But that means you're not 465 or close already. And good luck getting into any keys higher than a 10 with a low item level, regardless of what your main's io is.
    And that's the issue. You could theoretically spam M+ to gear yes, but you also will more than likely end up having to crawl your way up with a key yourself, or invest so much time into trying to get into other groups.

    You could also ask friends for help through M+, true, but that's really no different than asking for help getting gear through the raid, which you'll get far more than just "4 pieces of gear" since you can be traded gear.

    And there's far more than just trinkets that is needed from the raid. Weapons like from Ra-den and Skitra (hunters) are far too vital with the unique corruptions.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    For the trinkets, sure.

    "vastly more efficient" - how can you say this when raiding has a 1 week lockout whereas Mythic +2 and higher can be quite literally spammed, all day long?
    Time wise, raiding is vastly superior:

    - The raiding gear is still the best gear (for example, the hunter bow, Ra-Den weapons) with the possibility to target specific pieces with way more success than in M+ through bonus rolls;

    - You can trade items with way more people in raid;

    - You can't loot Azerite pieces in M+, which is a considerable source of power. You can acquire them through the M+ vendor, but you can buy one 480 random piece like every 2-3 weeks if you do a weekly 15. It will take you more than two months to get random 480 pieces, with a 1/3 chance at best to get your BiS trait depending on the spec. While you can just buy a Nyalotha carry and get your BiS azerite after two hours;

    - M+ has strong diminishing returns. Let's say you are in a ideal situation (you're getting carried 20 hours a day by 4 people through 15s who share the same armor type and can trade absolutely everything). You will end the runs with a char towards Heroic power because your items will have a good ilvl but shitty stats, shitty corruption effects probably, subpar trinkets. You can effectively spam M+ and get endless loot. You'll end up with endless epics ready to be disenchanted because the M+ loot is pretty bad except for a few items.

    I stopped raiding after Legion and geared my chars exclusively through M+. My last char had an inflated ilvl (471 ivl before I stopped playing) but with shitty shats, shitty corruptions, shitty trinkets.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:38 PM.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except there's still some weird disconnect here.

    There's the assumption "you can spam +15s to get 465+ in a day". Technically true, yes.

    But that means you're not 465 or close already. And good luck getting into any keys higher than a 10 with a low item level, regardless of what your main's io is.
    And that's the issue. You could theoretically spam M+ to gear yes, but you also will more than likely end up having to crawl your way up with a key yourself, or invest so much time into trying to get into other groups.

    You could also ask friends for help through M+, true, but that's really no different than asking for help getting gear through the raid, which you'll get far more than just "4 pieces of gear" since you can be traded gear.

    And there's far more than just trinkets that is needed from the raid. Weapons like from Ra-den and Skitra (hunters) are far too vital with the unique corruptions.
    I still feel M+ is a more efficient way of getting gear (I never one said specific gear, so..) and trading gear has stipulations, for example the person trying to trade must have a higher ilvl equipped etc. That's why I put it at the 4 pieces of gear.

    So Mythic + is an endless font of gear (whether or not you have to "work your way up") and raiding has a 1 week lockout where you'll usually get 4 pieces of gear.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    I still feel M+ is a more efficient way of getting gear (I never one said specific gear, so..) and trading gear has stipulations, for example the person trying to trade must have a higher ilvl equipped etc. That's why I put it at the 4 pieces of gear.

    So Mythic + is an endless font of gear (whether or not you have to "work your way up") and raiding has a 1 week lockout where you'll usually get 4 pieces of gear.
    M+ is an endless font of subpar gear ready to be disenchanted except for very specific pieces of loot.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    M+ is an endless font of subpar gear ready to be disenchanted except for very specific pieces of loot.
    That was never the point. The point someone made is that wow is "raid or die" which is blatantly false because M+ exists.

    WoW was raid or die from Vanilla to WoD. Legion introduced M+ and thus, you no longer had to raid to get equal to or close to equal item level wise gear.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    I still feel M+ is a more efficient way of getting gear (I never one said specific gear, so..) and trading gear has stipulations, for example the person trying to trade must have a higher ilvl equipped etc. That's why I put it at the 4 pieces of gear.

    So Mythic + is an endless font of gear (whether or not you have to "work your way up") and raiding has a 1 week lockout where you'll usually get 4 pieces of gear.
    The other poster said "raiding is mandatory to be competitive" even in regards to M+, and you said "for trinkets, sure". It's more than trinkets though.

    Looking at stuff like this-

    https://mplus.subcreation.net/protection-warrior.html
    https://mplus.subcreation.net/brewmaster-monk.html

    Prot warrior and Brewmaster monk are arguably the best tanks for M+ right now. Both use LSP which is a trinket, like you said, but they both also have heavy usage of Heart of Darkness, an azerite trait that only comes from Nya'lotha. Hell Brewmaster is still getting good usage out of trinkets from last tier even.

    M+ is a nice way to get gear, sure. I'm not going to deny that, I love M+ myself as a feature.

    But each tier generally speaking, the raid has always had some "Must have" gear. Also for what it's worth, trading gear just requires that they have an equal item level on already, doesn't have to be higher. The weird hiccup with that is stuff like if a lock is using a 475 main hand/offhand combo, and they get a 460 staff, they can't trade the staff if they didn't have a 460 or higher staff, because they're considered different gear for...whatever reason.


    Raiding certainly isn't meaningless though is the point I'm trying to make, unless your goal is just to have a high item level. But even then, as pointed out the N'zoth gear being 485 kinda makes that worth more than anything, although honestly they probably could have let stuff like Ra-den/Vex/Illg also drop 485 as the "last boss of the wing" kinda deal and would have had more reason for people to at least go kill M Hivemind and try Ra-den from there.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The other poster said "raiding is mandatory to be competitive" even in regards to M+, and you said "for trinkets, sure". It's more than trinkets though.

    Looking at stuff like this-

    https://mplus.subcreation.net/protection-warrior.html
    https://mplus.subcreation.net/brewmaster-monk.html

    Prot warrior and Brewmaster monk are arguably the best tanks for M+ right now. Both use LSP which is a trinket, like you said, but they both also have heavy usage of Heart of Darkness, an azerite trait that only comes from Nya'lotha. Hell Brewmaster is still getting good usage out of trinkets from last tier even.

    M+ is a nice way to get gear, sure. I'm not going to deny that, I love M+ myself as a feature.

    But each tier generally speaking, the raid has always had some "Must have" gear. Also for what it's worth, trading gear just requires that they have an equal item level on already, doesn't have to be higher. The weird hiccup with that is stuff like if a lock is using a 475 main hand/offhand combo, and they get a 460 staff, they can't trade the staff if they didn't have a 460 or higher staff, because they're considered different gear for...whatever reason.


    Raiding certainly isn't meaningless though is the point I'm trying to make, unless your goal is just to have a high item level. But even then, as pointed out the N'zoth gear being 485 kinda makes that worth more than anything, although honestly they probably could have let stuff like Ra-den/Vex/Illg also drop 485 as the "last boss of the wing" kinda deal and would have had more reason for people to at least go kill M Hivemind and try Ra-den from there.
    So I never said raiding isn't mandatory though. Someone made a point that wow is "raid or die" and that hasn't been true since Legion, as M+ was introduced and allowed people to be at or near a point of similar ilvl to even the most hardcore of raiders.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    So I never said raiding isn't mandatory though. Someone made a point that wow is "raid or die" and that hasn't been true since Legion, as M+ was introduced and allowed people to be at or near a point of similar ilvl to even the most hardcore of raiders.
    Ilvl doesn't really mean a lot in a world with overpowered 445-455 trinkets (Azshara font, Coral), corruptions and the importance of secondary stats and BiS azerite traits. M+ players will be near a point of similar ilvl to the hardcore raiders, but their characters will be nowhere as near in terms of power.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:53 PM.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Ilvl doesn't really mean a lot in a world with overpowered 445-455 trinkets (Azshara font, Coral), corruptions and the importance of secondary stats. M+ players will be near a point of similar ilvl to the hardcore raiders, but their characters will nowhere be as near in terms of power.
    And that is totally fine as I never said it would or wouldn't. My point is WoW hasn't been raid or die for quite some time now.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Laqweeta View Post
    And that is totally fine as I never said it would or wouldn't. My point is WoW hasn't been raid or die for quite some time now.
    If you're a casual, it's not raid or die anymore. If you care about fully optimizing your character and want to be competitive in M+ or pvp, it's pretty much raid or die.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2020-08-07 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    If you're a casual, it's not raid or die anymore. If you care about fully optimizing your character and want to be competitive in M+ or pvp, it's pretty much raid or die.
    I'll agree with this, but It's still MUCH BETTER now than it was say in WotLK and even BC.

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