1. #1

    Arcane Warrior/Battle Mage

    I feel the arcane spec would benefit from a revamp like the survival spec got. It could be a melee spec like enchance shammy, but not that fast hiting. Im not really sure if I would like it to be all melee spells or with some form of combination of the two. I think there is some room for a tank spec here instead perhaps, with mana shield and mirror image or something like that as defensive spells, but that would perhaps be too hard of a revamp.

    I know this is never gonna happen but I just want to know if its just me that feel the 3 mage specs are a bit too similar and if there is something else they can do to spice it up.

  2. #2
    The mage specs aren't really similar, they play vastly differently, and their aesthetics are also quite differenciated. If anything. My main gripes with Mage, and magic in the Warcraft universe overall, is the lack of clear rules or in-game representations of how stuff works lorewise. Take shamans and mages for example, on paper they use the same kind of magic, fire / frost, however while Shamans draw their power from the elements, mages' fire / frost magic is more or less just glorified Arcane magic. This always confused me to a certain extent. The spells / magic also has too many similarities to be interesting functionally. Fire mages are all about Crits and ignite. So are the flame spells of Shaman in Flame shock (Ignite/Dot) and Lava Burst (Fire spell / crit) and then you have frost shock (Slow.)

    Imo, I don't like that the spells and their functionality are so similar, when they're fundamentally different lorewise. I have the same gripes with druids in general, at least Bear form and Cat form. Ever since Vanilla, the forms have always felt like discount Warrior and discount Rogue. They use the exact same resources, and their abilities function more or less the same, except for cooldowns. Extra armour vs Shield block it's just the same defensive under different names. Shield slam and mangle? Same spell, different names. Thrash and thunder clap? Same shit, both are AoE that leaves a dot (Thanks to Warriors passive.) Then we have rogues and druid, again... It's just same role, same resources, same playstyle, under different names now. Yes, they play a bit differently, but it's always felt kinda samey to me. I've always wished they'd revamp druid into having its own identity, but it'll always kind of just ride the coattails of other classes in terms of feel imo.

  3. #3
    I agree, but with the backlash that Blizzard received when revamping Survival a conversion of Arcane to melee even if on paper sounding super cool is sadly completely out of the question.

    It would have to be a fourth specs and they seem to be a highly unlikely addition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    The mage specs aren't really similar, they play vastly differently, and their aesthetics are also quite differenciated. If anything. My main gripes with Mage, and magic in the Warcraft universe overall, is the lack of clear rules or in-game representations of how stuff works lorewise. Take shamans and mages for example, on paper they use the same kind of magic, fire / frost, however while Shamans draw their power from the elements, mages' fire / frost magic is more or less just glorified Arcane magic. This always confused me to a certain extent. The spells / magic also has too many similarities to be interesting functionally. Fire mages are all about Crits and ignite. So are the flame spells of Shaman in Flame shock (Ignite/Dot) and Lava Burst (Fire spell / crit) and then you have frost shock (Slow.)

    Imo, I don't like that the spells and their functionality are so similar, when they're fundamentally different lorewise. I have the same gripes with druids in general, at least Bear form and Cat form. Ever since Vanilla, the forms have always felt like discount Warrior and discount Rogue. They use the exact same resources, and their abilities function more or less the same, except for cooldowns. Extra armour vs Shield block it's just the same defensive under different names. Shield slam and mangle? Same spell, different names. Thrash and thunder clap? Same shit, both are AoE that leaves a dot (Thanks to Warriors passive.) Then we have rogues and druid, again... It's just same role, same resources, same playstyle, under different names now. Yes, they play a bit differently, but it's always felt kinda samey to me. I've always wished they'd revamp druid into having its own identity, but it'll always kind of just ride the coattails of other classes in terms of feel imo.
    They're similar in the sense that they're all casters. Whether you believe that is a good or bad thing or something that should or shouldn't be changed is up to the individual but in other fantasy RPGs there are other ways to do Maging than chucking spells from afar and I wouldn't blame someone if they would like to explore that aspect.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2020-06-30 at 04:56 PM.
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  4. #4
    I don't really play mage and I am not going to pretend that I have a galaxy brain understanding of the class. But two things:

    1. There is no universe where blizzard is going to turn another ranged spec into a melee spec. It just creates balancing nightmares.

    2. While arcane is almost always the redhead stepchild when it comes to balance and meme lords have been REEEEing about it being a 'two-button spec' for a decade losing it would still hurt the game imo. Managing a resource is essentially a unique mechanic for dps at this point and there is a lot of room for skill expression in that respect.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    They're similar in the sense that they're all casters. Whether you believe that is a good or bad thing or something that should or shouldn't be changed is up to the individual but in other fantasy RPGs there are other ways to do Maging than chucking spells from afar and I wouldn't blame someone if they would like to explore that aspect.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I wold not mind exploration into more the more interesting fields of magic, but I know Blizzard does not have will, talent, resources or ability to pull off "interesting" anymore. I'd love to see a Battle mage... I'd love to see Anti mages, tinkers, various other type of casters (Sand, water, air) I'd love to see more druid affinities / Forms explored. There's a plathora of possibilities, but World of warctaft is (sadly) not the game to look for this. Classes are monotonous and soulless in design. i've tried all classes and specs throughout the years, the different itterations (Except for DH.) And the thing that disappoints me the most every time. Is how my action bars end up being the same. All casters are the same, all melee DPS are the same, all healers are the same and all tanks are the same. the differences are minute.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    The mage specs aren't really similar, they play vastly differently, and their aesthetics are also quite differenciated. If anything. My main gripes with Mage, and magic in the Warcraft universe overall, is the lack of clear rules or in-game representations of how stuff works lorewise. Take shamans and mages for example, on paper they use the same kind of magic, fire / frost, however while Shamans draw their power from the elements, mages' fire / frost magic is more or less just glorified Arcane magic. This always confused me to a certain extent. The spells / magic also has too many similarities to be interesting functionally. Fire mages are all about Crits and ignite. So are the flame spells of Shaman in Flame shock (Ignite/Dot) and Lava Burst (Fire spell / crit) and then you have frost shock (Slow.)

    Imo, I don't like that the spells and their functionality are so similar, when they're fundamentally different lorewise. I have the same gripes with druids in general, at least Bear form and Cat form. Ever since Vanilla, the forms have always felt like discount Warrior and discount Rogue. They use the exact same resources, and their abilities function more or less the same, except for cooldowns. Extra armour vs Shield block it's just the same defensive under different names. Shield slam and mangle? Same spell, different names. Thrash and thunder clap? Same shit, both are AoE that leaves a dot (Thanks to Warriors passive.) Then we have rogues and druid, again... It's just same role, same resources, same playstyle, under different names now. Yes, they play a bit differently, but it's always felt kinda samey to me. I've always wished they'd revamp druid into having its own identity, but it'll always kind of just ride the coattails of other classes in terms of feel imo.
    I complete agree with the whole Warcraft magic lore issue, I get that mages uses mana to conjure stuff, but are shamans actually using mana to call on the elements? If shaman used some other resource it would make a bit more sense I think. Or if all spells as a mage started out as an arcane spell, then it would change to fire/frost when it fired.

    I think blizz has taken some huge shortcuts over the years with the tanks as you point out the similarities with them. In vanilla they were different and good at their own thing, although warrior back then was usually best overall.

    The best thing about arcane mage currently imo compared to fire/frost is that they actually use their mana, lore wise a mage is allways reliant on their mana, as it is now they use spells without any issue in regards to mana, basically having unlimited power

  7. #7
    A lot of Arcane Mage kit would allow you to be melee already:
    - Arcane Barrage can be talented to slow enemies and give you burst of speed
    - Arcane Missiles & Evocation can be talented to cast on the move
    - Arcane Familiar will follow you in melee and damage foes while you do
    - Blink can get you into melee range
    - Arcane Explosion is already basically an AoE whirlwind

    The only things that prevent Arcane from being melee are:
    - Arcane Blast cast prevents you from staying in melee range persistently
    - A melee auto-attack is not currently significant to the spec

    But if you're advocating for a Mage Tank spec, I think Frost fits Tank better, as its entire kit is about preventing damage to itself and slowing and controlling enemies. An Arcane Mage could be made to have similar large crowd CC abilities and preventing damage, but Frost I think has always historically had that kind of theme and is a lot easier to justify. Arcane has had a style historically of healing back damage with time magic or while evocating, but it has been taken away time and again so it isn't as consistent. Fire has also had themes of self-healing with cauterizing, but this is usually only when they're dying or already dead. If Arcane or Fire were to take on any other roles, with their abilities usually healing rather than preventing damage I think it'd be more appropriate they'd be healers, but that'd just be my take on it - as DKs currently self-heal as tanks and it's perfeclty viable, so it's not like cloth-based self-healing tanks would be incomprehensible or anything.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    But if you're advocating for a Mage Tank spec, I think Frost fits Tank better, as its entire kit is about preventing damage to itself and slowing and controlling enemies. An Arcane Mage could be made to have similar large crowd CC abilities and preventing damage, but Frost I think has always historically had that kind of theme and is a lot easier to justify. Arcane has had a style historically of healing back damage with time magic or while evocating, but it has been taken away time and again so it isn't as consistent. Fire has also had themes of self-healing with cauterizing, but this is usually only when they're dying or already dead. If Arcane or Fire were to take on any other roles, with their abilities usually healing rather than preventing damage I think it'd be more appropriate they'd be healers, but that'd just be my take on it - as DKs currently self-heal as tanks and it's perfeclty viable, so it's not like cloth-based self-healing tanks would be incomprehensible or anything.
    One of the main issues with making Frost mage the Tank / Melee spec though, is that it would enroach on Death Knight territory, who already had a frost, tank spec, and now has a frost DPS spec. Frost magic in Warcraft has never had all that much to do with melee or tanking though, it's always been about locking down your opponents from afar and take them out. Frost has also, always been partially associated with death, because of shadowfrost magic, death knights and liches. It simply wouldn't make much sense in the universe of WoW for frost to be the melee / tank spec, outside of Death knights, who also enhances with death / unholy magic.

    If any of the current mage specs were to become Melee, it probably would have to be Arcane, or a mix of Arcane and Fire, using their magic to enhance their weapons and blast enemies with magic on close range - The problem with this concept however, is that we already have this. It's called an Enhancement shaman, who is, once again in current WoW itteration, just discount mage.

    The only real way I see mages becoming unique in their own way, is do away with the contrived frost / fire spec, give all the elemental powers to shaman, and find something else for the mages. I never understood why classes couldn't be more unique. If Blizzard insists we're the world renowned, ultimate heroes, then why are we less powerful, less flashy, and less special than lore NPCs? Blizzard does not want to let players remain the impartial adventurers, but they won't let us be special either. It's infuriating at certain levels.

  9. #9
    You want another melee?
    Survival rework was a failure, survival was a enjoyable spec for many before the rework.

    Arcane needs some changes to it's gameplay

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Euroguy View Post
    You want another melee?
    Survival rework was a failure, survival was a enjoyable spec for many before the rework.

    Arcane needs some changes to it's gameplay
    Yeah I am one of those that miss the old survival spec, and there is the huge problem of balancing pvp I guess. So maybe a talent choice that replaces arcane explosion for some weapon AOE ability that damages and marks enemies and arcane barrage hits all targets that are marked. I just wish arcane used mana to do something else than just throw spells at their enemies like the two other specs

  11. #11
    Better to make a new spec or a new class with being a caster and melee / tank instead of completely destroying a spec.
    It already becomes a new spec, it isn't a "reworked arcane" spec, it's a completely new one with arcane coat of paint.

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