Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    (SPOILERS) Jailer dialogue

    If any of you have seen the maw intro, in the very last quest the jailer says some pretty interesting things.

    1.) The gateway that we power up is made by the "first ones" who are these first ones? only thing I could think of are maybe the titans? maybe Elune and whatever pantheon she belongs to?

    2.) He says that death comes for the soul of our world? It wouldn't be a WoW expansion without someone wanting to claim Azeroth's titan soul! What could he want with her soul though? correction what would death want with her soul?

  2. #2
    Shadowlands predates the Titans, so possibly older. Anduin comments in quest text that it doesn't appear Titan in origin to him. Albeit Anduin really shouldn't know that, but I get the sense that they're trying to convey it accurately to the player.

    He says that everything is going to be consumed, including the World Soul, so sounds like good old fashioned nihilism and power trippin' to me.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Shadowlands predates the Titans, so possibly older. Anduin comments in quest text that it doesn't appear Titan in origin to him. Albeit Anduin really shouldn't know that, but I get the sense that they're trying to convey it accurately to the player.

    He says that everything is going to be consumed, including the World Soul, so sounds like good old fashioned nihilism and power trippin' to me.
    Eh, I can buy Anduin knowing, he spent a lot of time around dwarves in earlier books

    Especially after Magni turned to stone
    Twas brillig

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinamonjackz View Post
    1.) The gateway that we power up is made by the "first ones" who are these first ones? only thing I could think of are maybe the titans?
    Much like the rest of the fanfiction tier writing, such as how Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!"), I expect we'll find out the first ones are Titans but better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #5
    I get the impression that the current crop of writers weren't happy with the extent to which Chronicle explained virtually everything about the setting and are now trying to put a bit of that lack of clarity back in. The First Ones are the pre-retcon Titans, basically barely explained and incredibly powerful progenitor entities. In that regard I actually agree with them - while when it comes to mortal history before the games especially Draenor Chronicle was great, explaining the source of the universe, the way it was made and turning previously nebulous players like the Old Gods and Titans into being easily measurable killed a lot of the world's mystery.

    As for the second comment, that's just standard villain speak 101.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #6
    1) If I am not mistaken it was already stated that the First Ones are the leaders of the main covenants of the Shadowlands. They are beings of extreme power. For example, the Winter Queen single-handedly created Ardenweald. It wouldn't be far-fetched to believe that their combined power gave birth to the veil between life and death.

    2) There is nothing deep about that line. The Jailer wants to consume everything. This is further reinforces by Sylvanas, who claims that the Maw will devour all. Why should the World Soul of Azeroth be an exception? "Everything" means everything.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  7. #7
    Elune might be an old one now. Same power level as covenant leaders

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Eh, I can buy Anduin knowing, he spent a lot of time around dwarves in earlier books

    Especially after Magni turned to stone
    Titan stuff tends to follow certain design concepts as well, and this waystone doesn't look anything like that, so it's not like he had to know a whole lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    1) If I am not mistaken
    You are. You're thinking of the Eternal Ones, not the First Ones.

  9. #9
    1) It's the Reapers, destroying the helm of domination acted as a beacon to summon them from the great dark beyond.

    2) I can't wait for Azeroth to wake up so we can run around on its arms and legs like he Super Dimensional Fortress Macross.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Much like the rest of the fanfiction tier writing, such as how Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!"), I expect we'll find out the first ones are Titans but better.
    It's not really fan-fiction, though. We know the titans came from worlds that had world souls and they didn't create the universe - so who did? It's a given something shaped the universe, but what

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Didn't the current writers write chronicle?
    Metzen was involved in Chronicle and as I recall Afrasiabi as well, but Danuser and Golden were tangential and Roux wasn't even in the team. It came before Metzen was phased out.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #12
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    Posts
    19,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Shadowlands predates the Titans, so possibly older. Anduin comments in quest text that it doesn't appear Titan in origin to him. Albeit Anduin really shouldn't know that, but I get the sense that they're trying to convey it accurately to the player.

    He says that everything is going to be consumed, including the World Soul, so sounds like good old fashioned nihilism and power trippin' to me.
    Anduin spent quite some time in Ironforge, both willingly while studying under Magni and Aerin, and unwillingly as Moira's gold-caged captive. I can buy that he spent time in the Hall of Explorers learning about the Titans and other dwarven history/mythology offscreen given that he apparently spent several months there once all was said and done.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Anduin spent quite some time in Ironforge, both willingly while studying under Magni and Aerin, and unwillingly as Moira's gold-caged captive. I can buy that he spent time in the Hall of Explorers learning about the Titans and other dwarven history/mythology offscreen given that he apparently spent several months there once all was said and done.
    It's semi-believable, but not in the way they phrased it as if he were an authority. "I've never seen any kind of Titan relic like this!" would be preferable from "This doesn't look Titan-made..."

    Again, though, definitely vibes with me that they're not trying to be misleading and Anduin can be an authority in this case. The Shadowlands denizens that made it, whoever they are, probably predated the Titans just as the Shadowlands itself did. And that's pretty exciting, given up until now Chronicle was basically a plot outline rather than a bible.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Much like the rest of the fanfiction tier writing, such as how Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!"), I expect we'll find out the first ones are Titans but better.
    1. "Fanfic writing" Shadowlands is unique as hell and contradicts almost nothing. The only thing it really contradicted was the origins of the Val'kyr. That's it. And no, the KJ creating the LK thing doesn't count, cause he and the Dreadlords still did it. Blizzard just gave the Dreadlords and KJ more "links" to the Shadowlands by making them commission the LK project to the Runecarver.

    2. "Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!")" No? Covenants are all unique and don't rip off anything. KJ and Yogg'Saron literally based most of their shit off the Shadowlands. KJ with the LK having gear from the Shadowlands, as well as the Scourge being made because of how impressed KJ was by the warriors of Maldraxxus. And Yogg with him being connected to the Shadowlands, as well as him creating/twisting the Nerubians based off the natives from Maldraxxus. Again, it's not a retcon. It's just adding pieces to stories we didn't fully know about.

    3. There is a confirmed "Pantheon of Death". Would that make them Titans but better? You can literally argue this about every god ever. Oh, the Aspects are like the badass Dragons but better. Oh, Sargeras is like the Legion lords, but better. Oh, the Titans are like the keepers but better. It goes on and on. You're just nitpicking at this rate.

    Also, how would the Gods of Death be anything like the Titans at all? They're not even related outside of the fact that they're both a "Pantheon".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Extrakt View Post
    Elune might be an old one now. Same power level as covenant leaders
    Elune could be one of the First Ones, or part of the Pantheon of Death. But she's also connected to the Light HEAVILY. So, she probably reigns more along those lines. We know absolutely nothing about her outside of the fact that she's a goddess, she fucked a Deer God, and that she's super fucking powerful (AKA Being able to turn a fallen Dragon Aspect into Star systems. Like, the hell?).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Didn't the current writers write chronicle?
    No. It was basically the last thing Metzen did. I think it was an attempt for him to make a permanent "lore Bible" for WoW so that his story couldn't be subverted... and then they decided to subvert the entire thing by saying it was written from the point of view of the Titans and therefore couldn't be all-encompassing and all-knowing as was originally the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    2. "Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!")" No? Covenants are all unique and don't rip off anything. KJ and Yogg'Saron literally based most of their shit off the Shadowlands. KJ with the LK having gear from the Shadowlands, as well as the Scourge being made because of how impressed KJ was by the warriors of Maldraxxus. And Yogg with him being connected to the Shadowlands, as well as him creating/twisting the Nerubians based off the natives from Maldraxxus. Again, it's not a retcon. It's just adding pieces to stories we didn't fully know about.
    It's entirely a retcon. The original story was that KJ created all of this himself and they decided that necromancy would work based on the fact that the Dreadlords could already use this type of magic. It was a thing that was already possible for demons to do. Frostmourne was originally a weapon made by the Dreadlords based on their homeworld necromancy magic as well. All of it was in house basically. So when you try to justify the covenants being unique because they were "there first" and "everybody else stole THEIR idea" you're letting Blizzard's stupid retcon hold weight. The scourge came first, they just decided to take the look and feel of the scourge and supe them up as per OP's statement and then declare that they were there in the Shadowlands first.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    No. It was basically the last thing Metzen did. I think it was an attempt for him to make a permanent "lore Bible" for WoW so that his story couldn't be subverted... and then they decided to subvert the entire thing by saying it was written from the point of view of the Titans and therefore couldn't be all-encompassing and all-knowing as was originally the point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's entirely a retcon. The original story was that KJ created all of this himself and they decided that necromancy would work based on the fact that the Dreadlords could already use this type of magic. It was a thing that was already possible for demons to do. Frostmourne was originally a weapon made by the Dreadlords based on their homeworld necromancy magic as well. All of it was in house basically. So when you try to justify the covenants being unique because they were "there first" and "everybody else stole THEIR idea" you're letting Blizzard's stupid retcon hold weight. The scourge came first, they just decided to take the look and feel of the scourge and supe them up as per OP's statement and then declare that they were there in the Shadowlands first.
    Technically, KJ still made the LK himself VIA the Frozen Throne, the dark magics, and shit, and the Dreadlords did kinda craft Frostmourne, but that was more the concept of it. The Runecarver merely forged the Helm and Weapon. Also, KJ did kinda make the scourge. He just reference the scourge by what he saw at Maldraxxus. Again, kinda just adding to the lore, rather than just fully retconning it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Besides, retcon or not, it's not a bad change. Just expands the Warcraft Universe more tbh. Oh wow, there are undead in the afterlife. Welcome to every fantasy genre trope ever.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Much like the rest of the fanfiction tier writing, such as how Covenants are ripoffs of existing lore (Danuser: "our Maladraxxus forces are even Scourgier!"), I expect we'll find out the first ones are Titans but better.
    So the creators of the Titans? Lol

    The Jailer is sounding a lot like Sargeras, just in another realm

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    No. It was basically the last thing Metzen did. I think it was an attempt for him to make a permanent "lore Bible" for WoW so that his story couldn't be subverted... and then they decided to subvert the entire thing by saying it was written from the point of view of the Titans and therefore couldn't be all-encompassing and all-knowing as was originally the point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's entirely a retcon. The original story was that KJ created all of this himself and they decided that necromancy would work based on the fact that the Dreadlords could already use this type of magic. It was a thing that was already possible for demons to do. Frostmourne was originally a weapon made by the Dreadlords based on their homeworld necromancy magic as well. All of it was in house basically. So when you try to justify the covenants being unique because they were "there first" and "everybody else stole THEIR idea" you're letting Blizzard's stupid retcon hold weight. The scourge came first, they just decided to take the look and feel of the scourge and supe them up as per OP's statement and then declare that they were there in the Shadowlands first.
    Well you're referencing another retcon. Originally it was just the creation of Kil'jaeden.

    In general I don't think Warcraft has ever had super concrete lore. I thought the Chronicles books were supposed to serve as that too. But there's been changes all the time, like demons used to be from the underworld, Azeroth was just the kingdom of humans, etc. Finding out more about the universe by expanding backstory is generally something we see every expansion, and personally I think it's exciting even if it changes a few things.

    Frankly it never really made sense that they made Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, never made another artifact to do the job it was intended to do, any gave that power to someone who was unloyal to you as a punishment, and never tried again. So I'm glad they wrote some sort of reason it wasn't easy to obtain, which is that it originated from the Shadowlands. And maybe the reason they couldn't wield it themselves is because demons don't have souls, but orcs and humans do, and apparently demons don't go to the Shadowlands when they die because of that.
    Last edited by HitRefresh; 2020-06-29 at 03:41 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    It's semi-believable, but not in the way they phrased it as if he were an authority. "I've never seen any kind of Titan relic like this!" would be preferable from "This doesn't look Titan-made..."

    Again, though, definitely vibes with me that they're not trying to be misleading and Anduin can be an authority in this case. The Shadowlands denizens that made it, whoever they are, probably predated the Titans just as the Shadowlands itself did. And that's pretty exciting, given up until now Chronicle was basically a plot outline rather than a bible.
    Titan stuff seems to be at least quasi-aware. And seems to be able to at least make people know "This is Titan-made" on sight. I don't know if Lorewalker Cho even knew who the Titans were before he touched the Engine of Nalak'sha, and then he knew all about them, at least their technology.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Metzen was involved in Chronicle and as I recall Afrasiabi as well, but Danuser and Golden were tangential and Roux wasn't even in the team. It came before Metzen was phased out.
    That made me think, I haven't seen Afrasiabi lately. He's usually talking at BlizzCon but he wasn't there at all. It seems like Danuser does all the story now? He's in an the interviews these days. We'll find out when they show the credits for Shadowlands.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Titan stuff seems to be at least quasi-aware. And seems to be able to at least make people know "This is Titan-made" on sight. I don't know if Lorewalker Cho even knew who the Titans were before he touched the Engine of Nalak'sha, and then he knew all about them, at least their technology.
    That's a fair point. Cho was pretty well versed, buuuut it would make sense that the Titans, who seem to have had at least a conscious intention of telling us WTF was going on before they "died," would have some kind of failsafe in their systems to let us know.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •