Has player feedback ever made the game worse?

[Kehego]

Yeah, thanks for proving my point about proving you wrong does not stop you from saying "not true, not proof, wah wah". No wonder why people don't bother coming with proof because people like you can't handle it. You know other traits, item level, corruption, essences etc change what's bis I am assuming, so maybe that's why you got different numbers? Really?

You are being pedantic, I know those shoulders are better. The link was just to show you shoulder vs shoulder. Does not need to know anything else than those shoulders simmed better, and that's what the link shows. I mean the bloodmallet shows that versatility trait is the second best trait for Patchwerk. You were going on about bloodmallet showing you different results, and when you now say the trait is trash, but bloodmallet shows it second bis, then it's wrong then? I mean, the trait got issues if you have to move a lot, but that's why I am using it on bosses with minimal movement.

Time to give up.

@Kehego
Here from my Frost DK alt, as a bonus. Emissary gear ftw. It also beats the mythic version by a good margin.


I am done btw, you got proven wrong, twice so nothing more to gain here.

good thing people use them to parse, then.

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You can't prove it because you're full of shit.

Doffen has just proven you wrong 4 times in a row.

The onus of proof is on you. Either provide it or shut up.

Check dreamgrove from 3 years ago, i guess.

And my sims that I provided the entire sim of, not just a screenshot, proved that they aren't. I gave him the opportunity to link the sim, with the "link report" tool in raidbots but he chose not to.


Or rather, let me explain it in a way you can understand.
You have the tools, if you want to provide a screenshot of the report instead of the actual report, what proof is there that there's no alteration? I linked the tools and I linked my report. There's no screenshot with half of the report cut off, roflmao

[DemonDays]

good thing people use them to parse, then.

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Check dreamgrove from 3 years ago, i guess.

And my sims that I provided the entire sim of, not just a screenshot, proved that they aren't. I gave him the opportunity to link the sim, with the "link report" tool in raidbots but he chose not to.


Or rather, let me explain it in a way you can understand.
You have the tools, if you want to provide a screenshot of the report instead of the actual report, what proof is there that there's no alteration? I linked the tools and I linked my report. There's no screenshot with half of the report cut off, roflmao

I asked you to provide PROOF that every single BiS trait was available in Uldir.

It wasn't. You can't.

Stop posting.

[WintersLegion]

These dungeons were too hard because they were available on LFD.
Premade group could clear them without too much trouble
But LFD? LFD was a young system back then, merely a second patch of it being a thing.
You were supposed to clear a dungeon that required CC, interrupts and coordination, and at the same time you were matched with clickers, keyboard turners and players that didn't even had their CC mapped on the ability bar.

Try putting M+15 on LFD today and you will get the same result. Even if you place ilvl 460 as requirement to queue. One in 5 groups will finish the dungeon at all, even less than that will time it.

Cata dungeons teached them to not put too hard content on LFG/LFR because matchmaking just doens't work with that kind of content.
After Cata HC's there were very few instances of hard content in matchmaking groups. Several LFR bosses on launch were problematic but they were promptly nerfed.

To me another problem with the early Cata dungeons is the fact it was such a jump up from Wrath dungeons there was no slow ramp up of difficulty or any preparation to ease players over into a higher difficulty.

[Kralljin]

To me another problem with the early Cata dungeons is the fact it was such a jump up from Wrath dungeons there was no slow ramp up of difficulty or any preparation to ease players over into a higher difficulty.

The issue of Cata Heroics is a bit more complex than just "the difficulty has been increased".

First off, it needs to be established that Blizzard wanted to recapture the essence of TBC heroics in Cata.

In TBC however, Heroics were not necessarily part of your core progression (at least for more casual players), you could still dabble into Karazhan / Gruul without actually doing the more difficult heroic dungeon.
Crafting, Reps and PvP offered alternatives ways to progress your character.

I strongly doubt that the people who actually did Heroics in TBC then suddenly failed to complete Cata Heroics, the people who failed in Cata heroics most likely never dabbled in TBC heroics (at least at a pre nerf stage).

Wotlk reduced these things and streamlined your character progression to Normal Dungeons => Heroics => Raids, meaning you struggled getting into raids if you skipped heroics.

Now, Cata used the Wotlk model and simply cranked up the difficulty, which obviously caused issues when you just increase difficulty of a certain mode, especially if that mode is now a key stepping stone towards raiding, if you failed to tackle heroics, your progression was effectively over, that was different in TBC.

On top of that, Cata heroics were simply mechanically more challenging.
In TBC, the Heroics were still pretty straight forward, the biggest difficulty was very often just the fact that Tanks could only keep aggro on 1-3 mobs, some packs had like 4-6 mobs and on top of that, 3 mobs could already put serious pressure onto your tank (in an era where def CD's were almost nonexistant).
The solution to that difficulty was very often to just invite a bunch of people with CC, it was a major issue for dps specs without CC (Fury, Ele / Enhance, etc..) to get into heroics because everyone wanted Mages, Locks or Hunters so they have like 2-3 CC spells to deal with big packs.

The Bosses themselves were very often just the same as the normal ones with more Health / Damage.
The Cata ones were basically small raid encounters where you had to dodge shit and whatnot, in a 5man setting, the death of a single dps could already lead to a wipe because the healer will go OOM or you're unable to beat some soft enrage mechanic.

Look at Erudax from Grim Batol, that guy has more (unforgiving) mechanics than some Ny'alotha raid Bosses on normal.

As said above, Blizzard wanted to recapture the magic of TBC Heroics, yet failed to realize that the overall structure of TBC made them not as mandatory as they were in Wotlk / Cata.
Cata heroics were not a return to TBC, it was just a Hardmode of Wotlk.

And the obvious one: Dungeon Finder, if there is anything we've learned from LFR (and by extension Cata Heroics) then that content which requires above room temperature IQ cannot be accessible via an automated queueing system.

I apologize for the wall of text, but there is just so much more to the issue of Cata Heroics than "they were too hard".

[TrollHunter3000]

Has there ever been times where the devs have listened to player feedback that then made the game worse or had players asking for a revert?

Yeah, classic servers

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What do you mean? Blizzard knows what you want, they don't need feedback. /s

You think you do, but you don't.

Blizzard knows best.

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In the last 6 years?

Basically never.

Whenever they do "listen to feedback" it's always fake bullshit and the system was always designed to fuck you over until the very last patch when the expansion doesn't matter anymore.

See - Legiondaires, Corruption.

They weren't wrong. Classic is already dying. It'd be dead as fuck if they didn't stagnate the release of raids.

[Doffen]

good thing people use them to parse, then.

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Check dreamgrove from 3 years ago, i guess.

And my sims that I provided the entire sim of, not just a screenshot, proved that they aren't. I gave him the opportunity to link the sim, with the "link report" tool in raidbots but he chose not to.


Or rather, let me explain it in a way you can understand.
You have the tools, if you want to provide a screenshot of the report instead of the actual report, what proof is there that there's no alteration? I linked the tools and I linked my report. There's no screenshot with half of the report cut off, roflmao

Uh uh, your point was that there is no way a trait could be worth more than 10-15 item levels, which is what I said it was for MY character. The link proves that. I don't fake sims just to prove some random poster wrong when thats the reality. Seeing your sims I can see that you altered them as well so you don't sim how people normally sim it and you even used an essence which are a 2000 dps decrease for me.

But the point is that you seem to know it all, while not knowing that bis traits for most specs are worth up to 50 item levels compared to second best trait which is telling me that you don't really know or want to see that your precious BfA expansion is the most flawed expansion yet when it comes to end game progression.

Now, I won't waste more time on someone who already decided to dismiss any proof they get handed to them.

Btw, people parse with good corruption. Like me as tank when TD rank 3 did 80% of my damage. Great expansion yall.


https://i.imgur.com/K02Lcgt.jpg I love how my character with 10 less ilvl than what you linked is simming 4k more dps. You really have no idea what's best nor do you know how it all works.

I'm sure you can supply me with a sim report and shut me up. please

Hope it works wonders this time.

[Demithio]

Unfortunately, you will see a bunch of cherry-picking both by the playerbase as well as Blizz.

For Blizz's part, every good thing they've done they claim they've done on their own. Every bad thing they've done they claim was due to player feedback. I think that if you were a fly on the wall, you would find that, most often, Blizz decided what they want to do and then looked to see if there was any feedback that supported what they were already going to do.

The playerbase mimics this response pretty consistently as well. Neither are willing to accept that Blizz just isn't as good at game design after the initial developers moved on.

Pretty much nailed it. People thinking that the player base really has any say in development are just clogging up the forums. Its gotten so very predictable with WoW development, and anyone thinking Shadowlands is going to come in and save the day is simply delusional. However, the hype train rolls on as predicted. Blizzard isn't anywhere near the development company they once were, and WoW, along with other current failures, certainly show it. Some people just cant seem to get their head around that.

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The issue of Cata Heroics is a bit more complex than just "the difficulty has been increased".

First off, it needs to be established that Blizzard wanted to recapture the essence of TBC heroics in Cata.

In TBC however, Heroics were not necessarily part of your core progression (at least for more casual players), you could still dabble into Karazhan / Gruul without actually doing the more difficult heroic dungeon.
Crafting, Reps and PvP offered alternatives ways to progress your character.

I strongly doubt that the people who actually did Heroics in TBC then suddenly failed to complete Cata Heroics, the people who failed in Cata heroics most likely never dabbled in TBC heroics (at least at a pre nerf stage).

Wotlk reduced these things and streamlined your character progression to Normal Dungeons => Heroics => Raids, meaning you struggled getting into raids if you skipped heroics.

Now, Cata used the Wotlk model and simply cranked up the difficulty, which obviously caused issues when you just increase difficulty of a certain mode, especially if that mode is now a key stepping stone towards raiding, if you failed to tackle heroics, your progression was effectively over, that was different in TBC.

On top of that, Cata heroics were simply mechanically more challenging.
In TBC, the Heroics were still pretty straight forward, the biggest difficulty was very often just the fact that Tanks could only keep aggro on 1-3 mobs, some packs had like 4-6 mobs and on top of that, 3 mobs could already put serious pressure onto your tank (in an era where def CD's were almost nonexistant).
The solution to that difficulty was very often to just invite a bunch of people with CC, it was a major issue for dps specs without CC (Fury, Ele / Enhance, etc..) to get into heroics because everyone wanted Mages, Locks or Hunters so they have like 2-3 CC spells to deal with big packs.

The Bosses themselves were very often just the same as the normal ones with more Health / Damage.
The Cata ones were basically small raid encounters where you had to dodge shit and whatnot, in a 5man setting, the death of a single dps could already lead to a wipe because the healer will go OOM or you're unable to beat some soft enrage mechanic.

Look at Erudax from Grim Batol, that guy has more (unforgiving) mechanics than some Ny'alotha raid Bosses on normal.

As said above, Blizzard wanted to recapture the magic of TBC Heroics, yet failed to realize that the overall structure of TBC made them not as mandatory as they were in Wotlk / Cata.
Cata heroics were not a return to TBC, it was just a Hardmode of Wotlk.

And the obvious one: Dungeon Finder, if there is anything we've learned from LFR (and by extension Cata Heroics) then that content which requires above room temperature IQ cannot be accessible via an automated queueing system.

I apologize for the wall of text, but there is just so much more to the issue of Cata Heroics than "they were too hard".

I agree, Your assessment seems sound. I personalty had no issues with cata heroics or raids, in fact cata was rather exciting for the first couple months or so. However, what you say is true, the scope and structure were very different between TBC and cata. TBC was a full on, well planned and executed, expansion. Cata seemed more like a giant patch. I recall doing heroics and raids with a causal guild that was comprised of mostly 'wrath babies', and had to listen to the never ending whining of how difficult it was. Blizzard simply didn't structure cata with this in mind. While early on it kept more hardcore types like me happy, it left the casuals drowning in tears.

I believe this was the point of no return for WoW, truly the beginning of the end. After they "fixed" cata, the game just slid down hill from there. The idea of balance for both hardcore and casual was dropped like a hot potato, and after that Blizzard simply ran the game design off a cliff.

[Mardux]

Has there ever been times where the devs have listened to player feedback that then made the game worse or had players asking for a revert?

Yes, everything that was praised in legion led to BFA.

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Yeah, thanks for proving my point about proving you wrong does not stop you from saying "not true, not proof, wah wah". No wonder why people don't bother coming with proof because people like you can't handle it. You know other traits, item level, corruption, essences etc change what's bis I am assuming, so maybe that's why you got different numbers? Really?

You are being pedantic, I know those shoulders are better. The link was just to show you shoulder vs shoulder. Does not need to know anything else than those shoulders simmed better, and that's what the link shows. I mean the bloodmallet shows that versatility trait is the second best trait for Patchwerk. You were going on about bloodmallet showing you different results, and when you now say the trait is trash, but bloodmallet shows it second bis, then it's wrong then? I mean, the trait got issues if you have to move a lot, but that's why I am using it on bosses with minimal movement.

Time to give up.

@Kehego
Here from my Frost DK alt, as a bonus. Emissary gear ftw. It also beats the mythic version by a good margin.


I am done btw, you got proven wrong, twice so nothing more to gain here.

You supplied no proof and you proved no one wrong. You have nothing to gain because of your refusal to use complete information.

[Doffen]

Yes, everything that was praised in legion led to BFA.

Yeah, that's what I mean with the devs taking points from the bad feedback instead of actually understanding whats wrong or not. Seeing Shadowlands end game system is more akin to Legion with improvments than BfA ever was it might seem that they are learning. Same as they now taking close to every suggestion about customization and putting it in the game. People want choices, and maybe, just maybe blizzard now understand.

You supplied no proof and you proved no one wrong. You have nothing to gain because of your refusal to use complete information.

If you go 2 posts above yours you'll find a picture which probably will make you quiet too. Again you come here with some useless nonsense. Must be so fun to be on a forum every day and posts like you do. And it's so telling as well, when someone says something about BfA you try to tell them they are wrong, if someone says anything about Legion or even classic you do the same.

Everyone knows Azerite traits are badly balanced. Except you and two others.

[Verdugo]

It used to be that Blizzard was reacting to feedback in an extreme, pendulum-swinging manner where instead of going moderate, they went full overdrive and the result was a mess.

Now, they use this internaly as an excuse to not listen to feedback.

[Triceron]

Everyone complaining about Pandas, Gnomes, Goblins etc etc all contribute to them having less lore and less of a future spotlight in the game, making it all very centered on the same round of main races every time.

You rarely ever get a new Gnome or Pandaren lore characters introduced in the story. This applies to many races in the game, and will apply to the Allied races of BFA too.

[arkanon]

Has there ever been times where the devs have listened to player feedback that then made the game worse or had players asking for a revert?

I think this is a pretty specific question, so im not in a position to provide a specific example of this occuring, but i have absolutely no doubt in my mind that player outrage (usually a vocal minority) have been a factor in some decisions made by Blizzard over the years. And i am equally as confident that some of those changes did not meet the expectations of the majority of players.

Personally, i always wanted more meaningful instanced progression outside of raids - not because i dont enjoy raiding - i love it, however, there are times when i dont feel like raiding, and just want to play with my close friends. We got M+, and when it was announced i was really excited - we all were. But it did not meet our expectations - the rush rush rush timed nature of the design was not what we personally wanted - we really wanted something that slowed things down and allowed us to relive the TBC / Wrath / Cata days when CC was required, the pull was calculated, hunters had to trap, and then drop another trap infront, tanks had to break CC in a sensible order (breaking the ones that cannot be reapplied first) - all the dungeon 101 stuff.

Looking back, those situations didnt last long in each respective expansion until we massively over-geared it and just chain pull / aoe'd everything down, so the idea of content that could be scaled up for great rewards sounded really exciting. In our heads, when we got to the point we stopped CC and just AOED it all down, it was too easy and time to ramp the difficulty up to receive that experience again, including better rewards.

Thats what we wanted, but obviously not what we got. Given the popularity of M+ how it is now, it would seem we are the minority on this one, although not particularly vocal, and thats ok. It shows the other side of the coin - if Blizzard gave my small group of friends what we wanted from M+, there would be complete outrage from the community.

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Yes, everything that was praised in legion led to BFA.

I personally didnt enjoy Legion at all raids were fine, thats about it - but i have enjoyed BFA far less, played substantially less than i ever have, and dropped my sub for the first time in over a decade, closer to 15 years. Although, i am in a fortunate enough position that i will buy SL and play for a month or two without denting the bank at all, nothign in it really excites me at all, and that was the same for BFA.

But i would argue that legion was probably in development since before wod even launched, and the same for BFA/Legion, i dont really know that player feedback had an impact.

[Vrinara]

If you really wanna see how bad Players running WoW would be like. Watch the WoWcredor Machinima's "If Fans ran WoW"

As for the question, Yes. Fan feedback has made the game worse. But it's also made the game better.. only to have blizz take the thing out. Most fans don't know what they want tbh. Now if only they would remove Crossrealm for large servers.

[Sithalos]

Has there ever been times where the devs have listened to player feedback that then made the game worse or had players asking for a revert?

Personal Loot rings a bell..

[Nyhtt]

That would first require them to make some sort of meaningful change based on player feedback, which from what I can recall anyways, has never happened.

Dude, during Shadowlands Alpha alone they have made plenty of changes based on player feedback. Atleast 4 or 5 within the last month I can think of.

[Roar-Powah]

Yes and No is the answer, some things with classes and systems changes are good, then you have things like Cross Realm Zones which are bad. They should remove this shit when they connect more realms together, if not Blizz can get fucked and I'm not playing WoW again. They only bought in CRZ as to not look bad by merging servers when in fact CRZ had do a lot of harm to the game.

People QQ'd about not being able to play with "friends" from other servers and the leveling experience being dead and it's what lead blizzard to this idiotic decision to bring out CRZ when they should've just made cross realm grouping and stop there.

[Swnem]

The answer to this is no. Because at the end of the day it's the responsibility of the devs which feedback they listen to. But, end of the day it's their team that makes the decisions. Not, people on the forums.

[HitRefresh]

Has there ever been times where the devs have listened to player feedback that then made the game worse or had players asking for a revert?

Yes, they had actual horse animations on the horses, and because some group of loud idiots on forums complained, they reverted them back to what we have now.

You can look at literally any other game and they have better horse animations.

However I think this is case of where Blizzard needs to know when to not listen to feedback.

[Alkizon]

So... kind of this, this, this and this + a little of this.