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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Fartoo View Post
    I never like to leave a key because you still get the loot, it still counts for some score. Only time when I do leave is if the group has hit a brick wall and wont be able to finish it at all.
    A bit off topic, the thing I hate about Raider.io, is that is has nothing to do with raids. Raids should count towards your score as well. A person who has all 15-16s with a high mythic progress should have more score than someone who has done all 17-18s but hasn't stepped foot into mythic raids. I am pretty sure that if you compare two people of that kind, the one with mythic progress will be a better player 9/10 times.
    I, for an example, mostly do one or two +16 dungeons per week, just to get my weekly chest. And I have been doing so since BfA came out. I know every nook and cranny of those dungeons after doing them so many times. On the other hand, I am currently 11/12m and progressing on N'Zoth and my score is being looked down upon by people in random groups (in before rage comments about how I'm butthurt, no, I'm not, if I was I would actually work on getting my score higher) who whisper me with comments like "lUl 480 wItH 2.2k sCoRe gIt GuD pLeB" while having low mythic progress or none at all. And this happens way too often than it should.
    Change my mind, but it'd be great if raid progress, somehow, also counted towards your score.
    Just because you have mythic raiding experience doesn't mean you have high key dungeon experience. It's a different beast and shouldn't be all thrown together into one number. At that point why not also add your pvp rating to the score?

    You being at 11/12m Nyalotha doesn't make you better in dungeons. And think of the extreme case. Let's say you have two players.
    Player A: 2500 rio score. 11/12m Nyalotha. Did all dungeons +10

    Player B: 2000 rio score. 0/12m Nyalotha. Did all dungeons +15

    Which one would you pick for your +15 dungeon?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva

    I realise most people don't give a fuck, but the other big reason to see a dungeon to the end is for the other four people in the group that just dedicated 30+ minutes of their time to the run, for whom there might be an upgrade, improved score, or experience in it for them.

    Look! A decent person, a rare sight indeed.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Just because you have mythic raiding experience doesn't mean you have high key dungeon experience. It's a different beast and shouldn't be all thrown together into one number. At that point why not also add your pvp rating to the score?

    You being at 11/12m Nyalotha doesn't make you better in dungeons. And think of the extreme case. Let's say you have two players.
    Player A: 2500 rio score. 11/12m Nyalotha. Did all dungeons +10

    Player B: 2000 rio score. 0/12m Nyalotha. Did all dungeons +15

    Which one would you pick for your +15 dungeon?
    You've got a good point I guess. When it comes to the extremes it doesn't make much sense.

    But adding pvp rating is not the same as adding pve progress. Skills to be high rated in pvp are not the same ones that are needed in high end pve content (i.e. the classic "Don't stand in fire").

    You can't tell me that a person with high mythic raid progress is not more mechanically capable than someone who has none, right ? And to answer your question, I would probably go for the person A, because I am sure that someone who has done mythic carapace knows his shit. But that's just me, I presume most people would go for the person B.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Fartoo View Post
    You've got a good point I guess. When it comes to the extremes it doesn't make much sense.

    But adding pvp rating is not the same as adding pve progress. Skills to be high rated in pvp are not the same ones that are needed in high end pve content (i.e. the classic "Don't stand in fire").

    You can't tell me that a person with high mythic raid progress is not more mechanically capable than someone who has none, right ? And to answer your question, I would probably go for the person A, because I am sure that someone who has done mythic carapace knows his shit. But that's just me, I presume most people would go for the person B.
    but a mythic raider does not automatically know how to play in a high key dungeon. It's a different type of content with a different gameplay, oftentimes with a different talent build. That player A who you'd pick, well he knows mythic carapace. He wiped at it hundreds of times. But how does that help in mythic+? Maybe he has no idea how bosses work and just killed them in a burst but it's tyrannical week and you need to know the boss exactly. He wiped hundreds of times at Carapace but he never wiped in Kings Rest. He doesn't know the bosses and he will very likely deplete your key.

    PvE does not equal PvE. Dungeons and raids are very different parts of the game that need different knowledge to be good at. ESPECIALLY when that player is a tank. Being 11/12m does absolutely nothing if the tank has no clue about the route.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    but a mythic raider does not automatically know how to play in a high key dungeon. It's a different type of content with a different gameplay, oftentimes with a different talent build. That player A who you'd pick, well he knows mythic carapace. He wiped at it hundreds of times. But how does that help in mythic+? Maybe he has no idea how bosses work and just killed them in a burst but it's tyrannical week and you need to know the boss exactly. He wiped hundreds of times at Carapace but he never wiped in Kings Rest. He doesn't know the bosses and he will very likely deplete your key.

    PvE does not equal PvE. Dungeons and raids are very different parts of the game that need different knowledge to be good at. ESPECIALLY when that player is a tank. Being 11/12m does absolutely nothing if the tank has no clue about the route.
    I definitely agree with the tank part, tanks need to know exactly what and when to pull.

    I think that a person who is pushing for cutting edge has most definitely done all the +15 mythic dungeons at least two or three times, which is more than enough to know exactly what is going on. Dungeon bosses mechanics aren't rocket science, they're mostly simple.

    It's just my opinion and I might be wrong, because I'm looking at it from my perspective, where I've been doing those dungeons from day one of BfA, but I guess there might be a person who just started in 8.3, he did raids but hasn't done many (or all) of the dungeons so he doesn't know, for an example, to click the coffins in King's Rest when someone gets entombed.

    You make a good point.

  6. #46
    I dont get it - why is a depleted run on your score a bad thing to show? If you spent time in the key and leave - that time is completely wasted, no items, no echos at least.

    If i have 2 players - one with no run in underrot and one that depleted a 16 underrot, I would ofc take the one with the depleted underrot: 1. he has done the run, start to finish even tho its not in time and 2. he didnt leave even though he could have.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Thanks for letting me know how I should spend my own time. Does it really bother you that much that somebody does something different than you?
    When someone says something that I think is crazy I find it interesting to engage to try to discover if there are things I just don't understand. That you interpreted my curiosity as me being bothered is the lulz.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. Regardless, I update the addon manually two or three times per day and I still end up with wildly different numbers on the website from the addon.
    There are some players who get many hundreds of points within several hours (e.g. reuniting with old key-pushing friends after inactivity&re-gearing). I feel I'm justified if I ever happen to use their score that is 1 day old.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    (Some players don't have IO on the addon but do on the website.)
    These are normally the players who just transferred or name changed. Their website already updated, but the addon did not catch up yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I think it has a lot to do with Blizzard's API for M+ being a bit wonky in the first place. (I've had runs straight up fall off the face of the planet, for example.)
    Yeah, depleted keys of very low levels might never got on Blizz leaderboards, and hence never reach raider.io. But now that we can (request raider.io to) parse our highest timed keys for every dungeon directly from armory, at least we never lose score due to the limitations of Blizz leaderboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    All that said, I don't think it's a bad habit to use both if you have the opportunity... especially if you're looking to push your key.
    Yea, it's never bad if you care to put in the effort.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    That's all raider.io is. It's a proof that you know the dungeon, your role and how mythic+ works in general. It's not just some "gearscore". We are way past that silliness.
    The score shows some experience, but it's certainly not a proof of anything such as skill.

    On a related note, many people underestimate the psychological factor of being invited into content that is considerably above the invitee's experience level. I am generally up to bring my casual friends into keys that are "very high" for them (the highest we think can be completed before people want to quit, normally around +19-22 depending on who wants to come). I can remember multiple depletes where we were about to time a high key against all odds, but then someone becomes too over-hyped or over-nervous and makes the dumbest of mistakes just because of that (after being on top of much more complicated things for the entire run). The mental fortitude is important, and the sheer fact of having been a part of multiple timed keys at level +Z (no matter how much of a "boost" it was) - helps people every next time they attempt keys at level +Z.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoLcano View Post
    While nothing is wrong with it but most of people here never did +20 keys , in any +20 keys people will also check your recent dungeon on top of your score so yes depleted key have negative effect for high keys .
    That's just you being you. People who are progressing in +25 keys will invite just about anyone into +20s, because that's a very low and easy key level for them. More generally, having played high keys since mid-Legion, I have realized I stopped being too protective about whom I invite even into the keys that are high for me... I have depleted hundreds of keys, and it made me numb over time... Depleting one more key is not the end of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I do this sometimes when I go above 20 and I need to pug, but I don't consider myself as a average wow player. And again it only would matter if I saw a history of 10 depleted keys and only 2 timed or so for that dungeon I am about to do.
    Depleted run information is a data point one can use, but not always a meaningful one. I have been a part of several premade groups over the years, and only in one group we regularly cared to finish fucked up keys just to reroll them. But most of the time you would see very few depleted keys in my premade groups. At times, I can be burned out and only ever run keys with my premade group; and I would only care to be as good as I have to... Just making sure I am not the one who drags the group down... And then there are times when I go crazy on keys, convince myself I just love to play hard content, and join any pug group that would invite me, no matter how scuffed/inexperienced they might look. Such indiscretion in group choices leads to numerous depleted keys on my profile, but that's also when I'm at my sharpest because that's when I play the most and love doing it the most (and pugging requires one to be sharper in general).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartoo View Post
    You can't tell me that a person with high mythic raid progress is not more mechanically capable than someone who has none, right ? And to answer your question, I would probably go for the person A, because I am sure that someone who has done mythic carapace knows his shit. But that's just me, I presume most people would go for the person B.
    This logic is probably true when applied to people who are progressing low keys like 15-18s. But if you ever try to push "as high as you can" for fun&challenge, your raiding experience becomes meaningless (unless you are currently progress raiding in like world rank 10 guild -- then I would trust you to learn on the fly from what I explain to you during the run).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fartoo View Post
    I, for an example, mostly do one or two +16 dungeons per week, just to get my weekly chest. And I have been doing so since BfA came out. I know every nook and cranny of those dungeons after doing them so many times.
    Oh no, you do not. There's a wealth of knowledge/experience to be gained in M+, and you could not have noticed even a fraction of it by doing just +16s (because it all still does nearly 0 damage and has 0 impact in the scaling that you get at +16 level). Not even if you timed all your +16s in the first week of this tier (so in sub-460 gear). But then, it's also clear you're just not interested in learning/experiencing the depth there is to M+, just as I'm not interested in pet battles. It's a fair choice.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-07-10 at 06:26 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    The score shows some experience, but it's certainly not a proof of anything such as skill.
    I didn't say it's a proof of skill. I said it's a proof of knowledge. As much of a proof as it can be, at least. There are always ways to cheat the system but for most people who have a 1.5-2k rating I can expect of them a baseline level of knowledge about the dungeon and their class/spec. I'm not expecting them to perfectly dodge all aoe while doing ridiculous dps and knowing all the cheese strats. I'm expecting people to know the boss mechanics and to not do ~30k dps.

    On a related note, many people underestimate the psychological factor of being invited into content that is considerably above the invitee's experience level.
    Such people are at least hungry for dungeon completion and don't just leave midway because it's not going to be a smooth run.

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