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  1. #161
    Yeah, but performance can be influenced by numbers. Rogue stay viable due to sheer utility.

    Would be nice to see the same approach reinstated for all classes. There's a dire need for widespread utility.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yeah, but performance can be influenced by numbers. Rogue stay viable due to sheer utility.

    Would be nice to see the same approach reinstated for all classes. There's a dire need for widespread utility.
    Agree. We cannot really complain much about representation because even if our raid damage is middle tier compared to other classes (but we have also corruptions which are a mathemathical abomination) we're always being decently represented in any kind of content if not doing well.

    I'm always torn between "rogues are in need of fixes" and "rogues are actually still a solid class despite everything".
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by tamarin View Post
    It was an awesome design during cata, because outside of dance we had to use all our CCs properly to survive. General consensus back then was that a sub rogue could kill anyone they wanted, but they needed to play well to pull it off. So it was more or less unanimously considered one of the most balanced spec in pvp.

    So of course blizz's designers couldn't leave it alone and had to go and fuck it up.

    Now after thoroughly emptying the sub rogue's bag of trick, they are bringing back a couple things (which were considered absolute essentials back in the day, like bleeds) and we're supposed to be grateful.

    Can't be arsed to find it, but I remember a blog post where a designer circa legion explained that he wanted to make playing sub rogue feel like you are playing piano. I'm not making this shit up. Because of course, all they could think of is how to add some flair to boring PvE button press rotations.
    General consensus was that rogues were the most overpowered dps spec in arenas during Cata, and there was nothing complex about their playstyle.

  4. #164
    Banned tamarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    General consensus was that rogues were the most overpowered dps spec in arenas during Cata, and there was nothing complex about their playstyle.
    Rogue is a class, not a spec. Are you talking about sub, or about ass?
    Last edited by tamarin; 2020-09-01 at 01:21 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by tamarin View Post
    Rogue is a class, not a spec. Are you talking about sub, or about ass?
    Sub. Assa was ok but not Cata Sub great. Combat was not a spec in Cata, and would see a resurgence by the hand of Woundman of all people one expansion later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Agree. We cannot really complain much about representation because even if our raid damage is middle tier compared to other classes (but we have also corruptions which are a mathemathical abomination) we're always being decently represented in any kind of content if not doing well.

    I'm always torn between "rogues are in need of fixes" and "rogues are actually still a solid class despite everything".
    Rogues are "fine", always will be due to the nature of their kits and buttons. As most classes, they need their buttons back and according to some a revert to the core of some specs (Combat and Sub).
    Now the definition of fine of course varies. Sometimes numbers are strong, sometimes external factors increase the overall fun. However a Rogue is still mostly a Rogue.
    (although really, Gouge on the class and not Outlaw only please thank you)

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    (although really, Gouge on the class and not Outlaw only please thank you)
    Haha, totally. I feel you, we have always been "fine", but you just feel middle of the pack and honestly, all classes and specs should be "fine" by default. Legion rogue rework has been mostly a miss - conceptually fine/good (though i know @shoegazing will hate me for loving the shadow ninja theme XD) but implementation was at most functional in some cases and totally uninspired everywhere. Being able to press some buttons the right order doesn't translate in engaging and fun gameplay, any kind of content you do.

    For example Assa in SL looks more and more involved in dots sort of like an Affli lock, which to me is a very strong archetype and translates well in gameplay. Currently playing the bleed spec and i'm having fun with it, since nothing much changes from now and i get more buttons to press, it's gonna definitely be a solid option, without raw performance in mind.

    Outlaw and Sub, they need love. Apparently Sub is fun to play in beta, so my two options are there.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Haha, totally. I feel you, we have always been "fine", but you just feel middle of the pack and honestly, all classes and specs should be "fine" by default. Legion rogue rework has been mostly a miss - conceptually fine/good (though i know @shoegazing will hate me for loving the shadow ninja theme XD) but implementation was at most functional in some cases and totally uninspired everywhere. Being able to press some buttons the right order doesn't translate in engaging and fun gameplay, any kind of content you do.

    For example Assa in SL looks more and more involved in dots sort of like an Affli lock, which to me is a very strong archetype and translates well in gameplay. Currently playing the bleed spec and i'm having fun with it, since nothing much changes from now and i get more buttons to press, it's gonna definitely be a solid option, without raw performance in mind.

    Outlaw and Sub, they need love. Apparently Sub is fun to play in beta, so my two options are there.
    sub on the beta is nuts. lots of damage. not sure if fun, but thats subjective. people have fun when they do big dam.

    your sig is great btw. i think that everytime sone brings up covenants....

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by tamarin View Post
    Rogue is a class, not a spec. Are you talking about sub, or about ass?
    Meant ofc sub in this case. Assa hasn't been a real pvp spec until now and back in TBC and early wotlk.

  9. #169
    Blademaster bitterwinter's Avatar
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    i joined the game properly in mop and i mained soley just sub rogue from then until legion - i do think that the old sub was indeed more complex, and i did like it, but i also did (personally) like the sub redesign in legion, to a point, anyway; i enjoyed the theme but it does feel more simple compared to what it used to be. that said, i still enjoy sub rogue and play it from time to time. though i wasn't a fan of hemmorage etc, really felt like it was playing itself and imo, had too many dots.
    Last edited by bitterwinter; 2020-09-01 at 02:11 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    sub on the beta is nuts. lots of damage. not sure if fun, but thats subjective. people have fun when they do big dam.

    your sig is great btw. i think that everytime sone brings up covenants....
    Ha, thanks. Well, good damage is surely a plus - hopefully it's fun to play aswell. I'm terrified to choose a spec/covenant just to se it/both nerfed or whatever and be "forced" to change. The whole synergy between all the systems is going to be bonkers.

    I'm fine with soulbinds and covenants, but skills imho should just have been separated from them. As in you can borrow the power from one of the 4 forces, but your gola is to help one specific of them.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Lubefist View Post
    General consensus was that rogues were the most overpowered dps spec in arenas during Cata, and there was nothing complex about their playstyle.
    Thanks for the laugh. I have played for nearly 15 years at this point and sub back then is easily the most complex spec I ever played.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Thanks for the laugh. I have played for nearly 15 years at this point and sub back then is easily the most complex spec I ever played.
    I suppose it can be complex to some

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