Shadowlands Sub Rogue : "Hopefully better" then BFA? That is all?

[shoegazing]

That's what "bothers" me the most, the fact you're focusing on a single aspect of a single spec. Like it was the holy grail of everything (it wasn't). But i fully agree that the design was there (loved playing sub in Cata, didn't meddle much with WoD because the expansion sucked super ass) and they just changed it in a way that wasn't good (i like the shadow magic concept, but execution was piss poor).

As you say, they did the job already. I am not that confident they're able to replicate the scenario (though Shadowlands changes at least look promising, SnD back is okay, finally we have an aoe/cleave finisher and an actual "rotation" for it).

I'm torn about FW. On one side, i'm happy it has become something more streamlined and not just a damage buff for Shadow Dance. Though correct usage and managing of the burst windows has always been the strong point of Sub and taking that away isn't good at all.

I expect that we'll end in a similar situation with modestly changed specs and roles set in stone (assa for pve sustained dmg, outlaw for cleave, sub for pvp) because they're not able to make it work, even if they were. They're just not gonna make the specs as they were in old expansions because that would be admitting their failures and it's a bad PR move.

They're gonna try stuff, some may be working, most won't, we'll be complaining about the same things over and over.

I have a right to focus on PvP, given that my experience as a Subtlety Rogue in PvP was outstanding for the entire game's history until it dropped off a cliff in Legion, and given that more PvE focused Rogues already had two outstanding specs to choose from -- did they really need to take ours so that they could have a third and we could have none? Again, it's a pure dps class with 3 similar melee dps specs. It's a complete failure of product management to design all 3 for PvE and let PvP be an afterthought, and particularly egregious given the history of Subtlety in PvP.

I have a right to be upset as well about the radical change of direction to my RPG character in which I've invested hundreds of days time /played. Even beyond the gameplay level changes, which are obviously terrible, there's the fact that they decided on a completely different aesthetic direction for a character class in which players are already heavily, heavily invested, to the tune of over a decade of subscriptions and hundreds of days of time in game. What idiot manager signed off on that without anticipating the shitstorm it would cause?

It's been 4 years since Legion released, and even longer since the change of direction was originally announced. Consider how angry people are still, years after the fact. Go over to the official Blizzard Rogue forums, where I am not active currently, and look at the sheer number of threads and posts by other people who are still angry at the design direction since Legion and feel that they have lost something important to them.

Also, Find Weakness was never just a damage buff for Shadow Dance. You could apply it with Vanish, Prep+Vanish, or manual Restealth as well. Oh, you don't have Restealths in PvE? Maybe that's a problem with the way combat flagging PvE works rather than a problem with the design of Subtlety spec.

And if pre-Legion Subtlety was a symphony of hit & run restealths to create FW windows, it was also a concerto of crowd control, utilizing your DR categories to your full potential to disrupt your enemies and create your moment to shine. Oh, but bosses in PvE can't be CC'd? So we need to completely redesign the spec, in a game with 35 other specs, to be YET ANOTHER generic "tab target and press 12345" damage rotation to make numbers appear on your screen. Yeah, I'm sure the existing audience is gonna love having their unique playstyle replaced by a generic "rotation" bot, but this one has purple spell effects as opposed to Ret paladin's golden spell effects, to convince the masses that it's still so different and unique. We traded a masterfully unique playstyle for purple particles. I have every right to be furious about that.

[Fantazma]

(assa for pve sustained dmg, outlaw for cleave, sub for pvp)

Unfortunately, today I'm sure what the developer team believes about this is:
Assa: Play with this if you want to play with what we call "the REAL rogue" (and if you choose this spec you will be rewarded).
Outlaw: Okay, you like pirates. So take this.
Subtlety: You think you're a badass ninja and you're going to kill everyone in PVP .... but we just want you to be useful with AOE damage in PVE.

Sad....

[Coldkil]

I have every right to be furious about that.

No, you don't. Again, agree with the points but you have no right to anything, as no other player has tbh. Your only choice is to go to Classic or stop playing, and Blizzard won't care apparently, given how last expansions went.

You focus on the main issue though: PvE and PvP are two different beasts. The concept and toolkit needed are completely different and in the specific case of Subtlety they even clash against each other. Even if the Sub design at some point in history was good, doesn't mean it's going to be again. I know already that they could just go back ad "remake" it, but they won't.

My point is simple: what the new Sub (and Rogue overall) brings to the table? Do i find this interesting and/or working? No need to check on numbers or bash on any side of the game. Cause it serves no purpose.

But i am 100% with you that the whole this is frustrating. I have lost count of how many times Blizzard received lots of good feedback just to completely ignore it. Just, hating something wehemently is useless.

- - - Updated - - -

Unfortunately, today I'm sure what the developer team believes about this is:
Assa: Play with this if you want to play with what we call "the REAL rogue" (and if you choose this spec you will be rewarded).
Outlaw: Okay, you like pirates. So take this.
Subtlety: You think you're a badass ninja and you're going to kill everyone in PVP .... but we just want you to be useful with AOE damage in PVE.

Sad....

If they thought that, we would be in a better place right now. You can hate "badass ninja" or "pirate", but if it works, it works. Sub right now doesn't work, and Outlaw if it wasn't for Blade Flurry wouldn't be even used in M+.

EDIT: despite all the things about class design, i'm even more worried about next expansion borrowed powers. It was shit in Legion, it is worse in BfA. It's simply wrong to have the power of our characters tied to random procs/expansion gimmicks that are taken away every time to be replaced by new ones.

I know the game is a gear treadmill. But until Legion, the feeling was that our characters became progressively stronger. With Artifacts we entered a loop where classes are shit by themselves but you get the insane OP thingymajingy that makes you perform well. If a class/spec sucks, they're just gonna make the borrowed power stronger, instead of actually fixing the class and playstyle.

That's why i'm pretty much not confident in anything they say.

[shoegazing]

No, you don't. Again, agree with the points but you have no right to anything, as no other player has tbh. Your only choice is to go to Classic or stop playing, and Blizzard won't care apparently, given how last expansions went.

I don't have a right to feel a certain way about my RPG character being stolen from me? Are you sure about that. And I already made the choice to quit playing retail as did many others.

You focus on the main issue though: PvE and PvP are two different beasts. The concept and toolkit needed are completely different and in the specific case of Subtlety they even clash against each other. Even if the Sub design at some point in history was good, doesn't mean it's going to be again. I know already that they could just go back ad "remake" it, but they won't.

In the past, we had an outstanding Subtlety PvP spec that was also great in PvE. There is no excuse for Blizzard to fail at this when they have succeeded in the past. As for them not fixing it, it's simply a matter of, 1. sunk cost into the redesign (art, animations, effects, etc), 2. too proud to admit they made a mistake, 3. fixing said mistake isn't their financial priority because there are 36 specs in the game and Subtlety isn't a popular spec to begin with, 4. they've introduced idiotic borrowed power systems and the old design doesn't fit neatly into that framework.

My point is simple: what the new Sub (and Rogue overall) brings to the table? Do i find this interesting and/or working? No need to check on numbers or bash on any side of the game. Cause it serves no purpose.

Who is bashing any side of the game? How is it bashing PvE to point out that Rogues already had 2 great specs for PvE? We had two great specs for PvE and one great spec for PvP. Now we have zero great specs for PvP and Subtlety isn't a great PvE spec either. We lost something tremendously valuable to those who loved it, and nobody gained much in return. It's not like there is some Subtlety PvE renaissance due to the redesign, that didn't happen. It's not bashing anyone's playstyle or preferred content to point that out, nor is it bashing anyone's playstyle to point out the homogenization and generic playstyle that results from Blizzard's belief that each of 36 specs needs to somehow perform well in every possible game situation that you can imagine instead of having real strengths and weaknesses.

But i am 100% with you that the whole this is frustrating. I have lost count of how many times Blizzard received lots of good feedback just to completely ignore it. Just, hating something wehemently is useless.

I don't agree. A lot has been accomplished due to the constant stream of negative feedback. Blind was unpruned. A burstier Dance playstyle was reintroduced somewhat. Find Weakness was returned as a talent at first, then baseline. Shiv was returned as a PvP talent first, now becoming baseline again. Poisons are returning. Slice and Dice is returning. A lot has been accomplished as a direct result of players putting in the hard work to constantly remind Blizzard that they screwed up miserably and we want fixes, and there is a lot more still to get done.

If they thought that, we would be in a better place right now. You can hate "badass ninja" or "pirate", but if it works, it works. Sub right now doesn't work, and Outlaw if it wasn't for Blade Flurry wouldn't be even used in M+.

Some players don't care only about whether it works. These are RPG characters into which people have invested hundreds of days /played, literally years of their lives. People have an emotional attachment to their character. A certain segment of the playerbase only cares about performance, but they don't speak for everybody.

[Fantazma]

I thought a lot about the subject proposed in the topic and maybe (maybe) the following changes would please me a lot and leave many other rogues satisfied:

SHADOWSTRIKE (reworked): While Stealthed, (AND ALSO IN YOUR FIRST ShadowStrike IN SHADON DANCE) you strike through the shadows and appear behind your target up to 25 yds away, dealing 25% additional damage

GOUGE: This skill is back for all specs.

SHADOW REFLECTION (as a PVP talent and reworked): Summon a shadow of yourself on the target that will watch you and memorize your damaging ability usage for the next 4 sec (it was 8 sec.). After this time, it will mimic the memorized abilities on its target over the next 4 sec.
EDIT: (1 minute cooldown. It was 2 min.)

DEATH FROM ABOVE: (reworked. More "death" and less "from above"):
This skill needs to do more damage because the animation costs a lot of time ...

If the devs announce only 50% of what I ask for above I would be the happiest sub rogue in shadowlands ...

EDIT:It is important to say that I play since Vanilla as a casual PVP player and I also think as a casual PVP player. So the changes I propose are to improve CCs and Burst damage.

[Coldkil]

I don't have a right to feel a certain way about my RPG character being stolen from me? Are you sure about that. And I already made the choice to quit playing retail as did many others.

No, you don't. It's not your property, you pay a fee to use it and it's not being stolen. You don't like how Blizzard is making it. Also, i assume you quit retail now to return for Shadowlands.

In the past, we had an outstanding Subtlety PvP spec that was also great in PvE. There is no excuse for Blizzard to fail at this when they have succeeded in the past. As for them not fixing it, it's simply a matter of, 1. sunk cost into the redesign (art, animations, effects, etc), 2. too proud to admit they made a mistake, 3. fixing said mistake isn't their financial priority because there are 36 specs in the game and Subtlety isn't a popular spec to begin with, 4. they've introduced idiotic borrowed power systems and the old design doesn't fit neatly into that framework.

Agree on all 4 points, but for them having done a good job in the past doesn't mean they're going to redo it as it seems they're unable to understand why the game was good before and why it's bad now (on certain aspect, i still like it overall, i just play it completely casually since not worth investing much time so far on it after 15 years of playing).

Who is bashing any side of the game? How is it bashing PvE to point out that Rogues already had 2 great specs for PvE? We had two great specs for PvE and one great spec for PvP. Now we have zero great specs for PvP and Subtlety isn't a great PvE spec either. We lost something tremendously valuable to those who loved it, and nobody gained much in return. It's not like there is some Subtlety PvE renaissance due to the redesign, that didn't happen. It's not bashing anyone's playstyle or preferred content to point that out, nor is it bashing anyone's playstyle to point out the homogenization and generic playstyle that results from Blizzard's belief that each of 36 specs needs to somehow perform well in every possible game situation that you can imagine instead of having real strengths and weaknesses.

You make it way bigger than it is. Old sub isn't the Holy Grail. It was a very good and entertaing spec, and you just make yourself way more tied to it than it should be. Granted i want like you for it to return to its old glory.

I don't agree. A lot has been accomplished due to the constant stream of negative feedback. Blind was unpruned. A burstier Dance playstyle was reintroduced somewhat. Find Weakness was returned as a talent at first, then baseline. Shiv was returned as a PvP talent first, now becoming baseline again. Poisons are returning. Slice and Dice is returning. A lot has been accomplished as a direct result of players putting in the hard work to constantly remind Blizzard that they screwed up miserably and we want fixes, and there is a lot more still to get done.

Putting back old spells is just caving in to the fact they're unable to make the class interesting. Instead, the "combo system" has been basically given to many other dps in game because it works so well, while rogue got nothing. These more buttons are not going to make the rotation or playstyle more interesting. I like more things like a new AoE finisher that was missing, and things you can actually choose to use. The fact it works for Sub PvP doesn't mean it's working overall - and you only focus on that. Also, this kind of feedback on class design was long due from even before MoP, and it got always ignored. At least they're reacting after 4 expansions.

Some players don't care only about whether it works. These are RPG characters into which people have invested hundreds of days /played, literally years of their lives. People have an emotional attachment to their character. A certain segment of the playerbase only cares about performance, but they don't speak for everybody.

Wasn't talking about that. Was about the fact that right now not only the concept of the specs aren't really good, but in addition the playstyle is bad. If at least playstyle was good in execution, it would be a better situation.

Sidenote: currently playing Assa with the full expedient/bleeds build. The fact you add Crimson Tempest to the rotation, even ST, and Exsanguinate actually requires a little brain to use, makes up for a good flow and feeling of the spec as the concept suggests. For what it counts, i think this is a good starting point. For example, instead of SnD broadly everywhere, they could have added 3 finishers that were more apt to the specs. That would have been a better job (obviously would require balance).

I know already we'll never agree - too different standpoints. Still, very worth discussing.

[shoegazing]

It doesn't have to be "my property" in order for me to feel a certain way about it.

I'll respond to your other points later but need to focus on my work right now.

[Fantazma]

If they thought that, we would be in a better place right now. You can hate "badass ninja" or "pirate", but if it works, it works. Sub right now doesn't work, and Outlaw if it wasn't for Blade Flurry wouldn't be even used in M+.

EDIT: despite all the things about class design, i'm even more worried about next expansion borrowed powers. It was shit in Legion, it is worse in BfA. It's simply wrong to have the power of our characters tied to random procs/expansion gimmicks that are taken away every time to be replaced by new ones.

My real opinion about this is:
I really like the concept of class fantasy. I know this came up in LEGION along with several other unpopular changes ... but we have "ninjas" in other MMOs that are really fun to play with animated skills that make your eyes tear....and I really wanted to see that on WoW.
I would really like Subtlety today to be a mix of the CATA and WOD sub without losing the flavor of the class fantasy proposed in Legion.
About how I believe each spec should be:
Assa: Excellent sustained damage, focused on PVE and PVP.
Outlaw: Cleave and excellent survival, focused on PVE.
Subtlety: Excellent CCs and Burst damage, focused on PVP.

[shoegazing]

My real opinion about this is:
I really like the concept of class fantasy. I know this came up in LEGION along with several other unpopular changes ... but we have "ninjas" in other MMOs that are really fun to play with animated skills that make your eyes tear....and I really wanted to see that on WoW.
I would really like Subtlety today to be a mix of the CATA and WOD sub without losing the flavor of the class fantasy proposed in Legion.
About how I believe each spec should be:
Assa: Excellent sustained damage, focused on PVE and PVP.
Outlaw: Cleave and excellent survival, focused on PVE.
Subtlety: Excellent CCs and Burst damage, focused on PVP.

Those cosmetics are acceptable when coming via glyphs or other opt in systems. But keep in mind there are players like me who have played a Subtlety Rogue since 2005 and don't want all this purple shadow magic trash or ninja garbage. I want to play a basic Warcraft Rogue archetype without all the nu-Rogue reimagined fantasy.

[Fantazma]

Those cosmetics are acceptable when coming via glyphs or other opt in systems. But keep in mind there are players like me who have played a Subtlety Rogue since 2005 and don't want all this purple shadow magic trash or ninja garbage. I want to play a basic Warcraft Rogue archetype without all the nu-Rogue reimagined fantasy.

I understand you perfectly my friend (who has been playing this game since 2005) and I also understand me (who has also played this game since 2005) ... And that's why I said "mix CATA and WOD playstyle rogue" with "legion fantasy class ". (assuming you miss the rogue of these two expansions).
And in this mix, developers could find a way for us to choose which type of rogue subtytle we find most enjoyable. I don't believe this is asking for much.
It is easy (I believe) to fix this by simply bringing back 3 or 4 talents from the past and keeping some (from legion).
I know some rogues who hated to see Combat become a Pirate, and Sub become a Ninja. Particularly I like Ninja class fantasy ..! What spoiled the spec in my opinion were the constant nerfs in CCs and Burst damage (and they also took some simply fun skills that I loved).
Not to mention my "crazy" desires ... and speaking coldly:
We need Gouge and Garrote back.
We need a really destructive Shadow Dance.
Unfortunately I'm not seeing any youtuber testing the alpha mentioning this ....

[shoegazing]

I understand you perfectly my friend (who has been playing this game since 2005) and I also understand me (who has also played this game since 2005) ... And that's why I said "mix CATA and WOD playstyle rogue" with "legion fantasy class ". (assuming you miss the rogue of these two expansions).
And in this mix, developers could find a way for us to choose which type of rogue subtytle we find most enjoyable. I don't believe this is asking for much.
It is easy (I believe) to fix this by simply bringing back 3 or 4 talents from the past and keeping some (from legion).
I know some rogues who hated to see Combat become a Pirate, and Sub become a Ninja. Particularly I like Ninja class fantasy ..! What spoiled the spec in my opinion were the constant nerfs in CCs and Burst damage.
Not to mention my "crazy" desires ... and speaking coldly:
We need Gouge and Garrote back.
We need a really destructive Shadow Dance.
Unfortunately I'm not seeing any youtuber testing the alpha mentioning this ....

However, the Legion Class Fantasy is the exact reason that we no longer have Garrote. Bleeds are Assassination's nu-Rogue ClassFantasyTM so they took it from other specs. The Legion Class Fantasy is the reason that we longer have Gouge. Being a brawler that fights dirty is Outlaw's nu-Rogue ClassFantasyTM so they Gouge away from the other specs.

And the Legion Class Fantasy is the reason that Shadow Dance has too much uptime and hits like a wet noodle. They decided that Shadow Dance is our entire ClassFantasyTM so instead of being a super exciting CD, now it's the basis of the entire rotation. And since it's the basis of the entire rotation, it can't be as bursty for obvious balance reasons.

The ClassFantasyTM is the root cause reason for the pruning and other terrible design decisions. It was all done according to the new direction of Class Fantasy. It doesn't have to be this way necessarily, but that's how Blizzard approached it -- changing the design to fit the new idea of Class Fantasy.

[Fantazma]

However, the Legion Class Fantasy is the exact reason that we no longer have Garrote. Bleeds are Assassination's nu-Rogue ClassFantasyTM so they took it from other specs. The Legion Class Fantasy is the reason that we longer have Gouge. Being a brawler that fights dirty is Outlaw's nu-Rogue ClassFantasyTM so they Gouge away from the other specs.

And the Legion Class Fantasy is the reason that Shadow Dance has too much uptime and hits like a wet noodle. They decided that Shadow Dance is our entire ClassFantasyTM so instead of being a super exciting CD, now it's the basis of the entire rotation. And since it's the basis of the entire rotation, it can't be as bursty for obvious balance reasons.

The ClassFantasyTM is the root cause reason for the pruning and other terrible design decisions. It was all done according to the new direction of Class Fantasy. It doesn't have to be this way necessarily, but that's how Blizzard approached it -- changing the design to fit the new idea of Class Fantasy.

I believe that the big problem was not the creation of class-fantasy, but the execution of this.
My main-char was already a sub-rogue when in Legion they made my rogue a "ninja with shadow-magic powers". I found it interesting. But then they took the poisons from us ... (and I thought: Okay, so at least give me "shadow-poisons" .... but they didn't). In Legion they also took a Garrote from us (and I thought. Okay, no problem ... but then give me some "silence-skill-from-the-shadows" ... but they didn't). Gouge was taken from us ... and they gave us nothing in return for this important CC. They took from us several things that (in their view) didn’t match a "ninja with shadow-magic powers" and forgot to give us new skills (or ninja skills) that had the same utility as Garrote, Poisons, Gouge etc ...! Did you understand my point? If they had painted us shadow-magic-purple from the feet to the head ... I would be fine with that ... the problem was the poor planning of our class-fantasy that nerfed us too much.

[shoegazing]

I believe that the big problem was not the creation of class-fantasy, but the execution of this.
My main-char was already a sub-rogue when in Legion they made my rogue a "ninja with shadow-magic powers". I found it interesting. But then they took the poisons from us ... (and I thought: Okay, so at least give me "shadow-poisons" .... but they didn't). In Legion they also took a Garrote from us (and I thought. Okay, no problem ... but then give me some "silence-skill-from-the-shadows" ... but they didn't). Gouge was taken from us ... and they gave us nothing in return for this important CC. They took from us several things that (in their view) didn’t match a "ninja with shadow-magic powers" and forgot to give us new skills (or ninja skills) that had the same utility as Garrote, Poisons, Gouge etc ...! Did you understand my point? If they had painted us shadow-magic-purple from the feet to the head ... I would be fine with that ... the problem was the poor planning of our class-fantasy that nerfed us too much.

1. If they had painted us shadow magic purple from the feet to the head, YOU would be fine with it but a lot of others wouldn't be.

2. When Blizzard said ClassFantasy they aren't just talking about what color icons and spell effects do you have, they are talking about how does the gameplay and the entire experience of playing a spec add up to that fantasy.

If all you want are cosmetic changes, specializations aren't the right vehicle to deliver that. It can be achieved through glyphs and other systems such as the Warlock's Green Fire quest. You don't need to have an entire separate specialization just to have purple abilities.

[Fantazma]

1. If they had painted us shadow magic purple from the feet to the head, YOU would be fine with it but a lot of others wouldn't be.

2. When Blizzard said ClassFantasy they aren't just talking about what color icons and spell effects do you have, they are talking about how does the gameplay and the entire experience of playing a spec add up to that fantasy.

If all you want are cosmetic changes, specializations aren't the right vehicle to deliver that. It can be achieved through glyphs and other systems such as the Warlock's Green Fire quest. You don't need to have an entire separate specialization just to have purple abilities.

1- You're right. I like the all purple stuffs from shadow magic effect but many don't. And yes, a glyph could be useful at this point.
p.s: I already told you that if Blizzard recolor Mythic Tier-19 in purple and black, maybe I will go crazy?

2 - I understood again. Sometimes I think that Blizzard could simply put on the table ALL the TALENTS and skills that it has already created for the 3 Rogue specs and we could take which one we like best. Of course, there would be a limit to over power skills .... (although I think a company that sells fun shouldn't impose limits on fun ..)

3 - Now just one question: In the WOD, which level 100 talent did you choose: Venon Rush, Shadow Reflection or Death from Above?

[Coldkil]

When Blizzard said ClassFantasy they aren't just talking about what color icons and spell effects do you have, they are talking about how does the gameplay and the entire experience of playing a spec add up to that fantasy.

This - so fucking this. We can discuss all we want about if "shadowninja" is a good or bad class concept, but in the end, the problem is how this impact gameplay. There are people who like that, people who hate it, and people who are just neutral to it. It's just an opinion and it ends short.

However the problem is exactly that to give the spec a new feeling that matched the concept, they just disrupted gameplay, which is infinitely more important. As you mentioned, the change in SD uptime that went from a burst to a maintenace window and so on. That's what made sub abysmal.

People don't play sub because it sucks to play it, and on top of it it's not effective as it should be. The fact Rupture is red and not purple has very little to do with it (excluding personal tastes again. Perfectly fine with the "i don't like it at all position", as i am pretty neutral about it).

I really dig the idea of a "green fire quest". I loved it on my warlock in MoP, there should be more stuff like that in game.

[Gotural]

I agree with shoegazing and Coldkil on nearly everything.

Imo the best Sub design was WoD, with the only caveat being our passive which made multistrikes shorten the duration of Rupture.

Sometimes you spent 10 combos points to set up a juicy burst, you wait until your energy went back to full and ... RNG multistrikes dropped the duration of Rupture so much that dancing would be a waste, and you need to do it again.

In contrary I think there is one thing good from the Legion iteration, one single thing, which is the stealth-only teleport on Shadowstrike.
It allows some cool stuff like using Shadow Step on someone let's say a Mage in arena, the enemy healer thinks he is safe to cast and then you Vanish Shadowstrike Kick him instantly.

Or let's say you used Vanish to sap an enemy healer after a Blind, you want to come back on your target which is a bit far away. You use Shadowstrike to get to him instead of Shadowstep, then you can still Cheap Shot thanks to Subterfuge. The enemy healer decides to trinket the sap because he sees you went back on your kill target and don't expect to get sapped on his trinket, then boom you can Shadowstep on him and use Kick or Kidney (or even Sap if he started with a hard cast ability and didn't get into combat).

It's like a second 2 min CD Shadow Step but with a fair draw back, I like it.

[Naiattavain]

i want all rogues to feel happy and full of life again. this goes for all specs. please fix the rogue specs to where they feel happy once more.

- - - Updated - - -

Rest in peace Rekful.

[Seliar]

Those cosmetics are acceptable when coming via glyphs or other opt in systems. But keep in mind there are players like me who have played a Subtlety Rogue since 2005 and don't want all this purple shadow magic trash or ninja garbage. I want to play a basic Warcraft Rogue archetype without all the nu-Rogue reimagined fantasy.

Or you could have glyphs that revert the cosmetic changes to the plain old ones for the likes of you who don't want the shadow ninja style...
Btw shadowstrike's firts iteration was modified not because of pvp, but because in pve you could teleport into your death on multiple bosses and that was unacceptable. That's the main reason they removed DfA from our pve toolkit too, rather than just fixing the skill.

hey decided that Shadow Dance is our entire ClassFantasyTM so instead of being a super exciting CD, now it's the basis of the entire rotation. And since it's the basis of the entire rotation, it can't be as bursty for obvious balance reasons.

It can be pretty bursty with fw, nightstalker, prey on the weak and dark shadow talents and optimal azerites.

[Velerios]

Hey at least you can hope to be better then BfA. Blizzards stance on shadow priest is: We don't even care anymore!

[Jackstraw]

You focus on the main issue though: PvE and PvP are two different beasts. The concept and toolkit needed are completely different and in the specific case of Subtlety they even clash against each other. Even if the Sub design at some point in history was good, doesn't mean it's going to be again. I know already that they could just go back ad "remake" it, but they won't.

I guess this is the hardest inconsistency: PvP and PvE have been proven to have different balancing knobs with the same overall design (Find Weakness in Cata was 70% in PvP instead of 100% in PvE iirc).

There's no excuse for Sub to be this barebones, as much as there was no excuse for Arms in WoD to be as bad as it was. It's a proper shame.

Also makes no sense that the only semblance of the class as it existed for almost the entirety of the game is split between Assa and Outlaw, who for some reason is the only spec that gets to keep Gouge.

Current game has glaring design flaws, and in my opinion the parallel with the steady decline of the player base (that retention maneuvers cannot help at all given the current supershard move) cannot be mere coincidence.