View Poll Results: Would you sign an Open Letter without knowing of other signees?

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  1. #101
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    My view on women's restrooms is that we have more sanitary concerns than men do that can be very awkward even among other women, so giving an additional level of space and security has a need beyond concerns about sexual assault and peeping.

    As for the topic, freedom of speech includes freedom to criticize others.

  2. #102
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Are we attempting Googlefu? Nothing yet?

    Here's more from the AMA:

    The study was not designed to answer the question if gender-affirming surgery causes mortality suicide or criminality so it could not be used to say that gender-affirming surgery causes death. The study does not say that we should not treat transgender persons since they anyway commit suicide on the opposite it say that we need to improve health care for transgender people and that we need to reduce risk in both cardio vascular dead and suicide. Some people interpret that suicide or suicide is a sign of regret to gender-affirming treatment. The study does not say that. To my knowledge there is no study that had showed that suicide attempts in the transgender group is due to that they regret transition. However there are some studies showing an association with suicidality and minority stress (Bauer et al 2015; Bockting et al 2013; Marchall et al 2015).
    One of the differences of people seeks leg amputation is that gender-affirming treatment has been done since 1960. Several studies have shown that the treatment reduces gender dysphoria, and improves mental health (Murad et al 2010) and that there are few regrets to the procedure (Dhejne et al 2014). So even if it is difficult to understand especially if one is not gender dysphoric the treamtent works. Some people might still have problem even after treatment but this is mostly caused by other things and at least they don’t suffer from gender dysphoria any more.
    edit: Link to the AMA.

    Shall we move on to trans kids next, guys?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Let's get s'more in here. Lots to read. Click the link for a clickable version. I'm not interested enough in this to go through an individually link.

    Citations on transition as medically necessary and the only effective treatment for dysphoria, as recognized by every major US and world medical authority:

    Here is the American Psychiatric Association's policy statement on the necessity and efficacy of transition as the appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria. More information from the APA here

    Here is a resolution from the American Medical Association on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage

    Here is a similar policy statement from the American College of Physicians

    Here are the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines

    Here is a similar resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians

    Here is one from the National Association of Social Workers

    Here are the treatment guidelines from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and here are guidelines from the NHS. More from the NHS here.

    Citations on the transition's dramatic reduction of suicide risk while improving mental health and quality of life, with trans people able to transition young and spared abuse and discrimination having mental health and suicide risk on par with the general public:

    Bauer, et al., 2015: Transition vastly reduces risks of suicide attempts, and the farther along in transition someone is the lower that risk gets

    Moody, et al., 2013: The ability to transition, along with family and social acceptance, are the largest factors reducing suicide risk among trans people

    Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment. A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides trans youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. All showed significant improvement in their psychological health, and they had notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among trans children living as their natal sex. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.

    The only disorders more common among trans people are those associated with abuse and discrimination - mainly anxiety and depression. Early transition virtually eliminates these higher rates of depression and low self-worth, and dramatically improves trans youth's mental health. Trans kids who socially transition early and not subjected to abuse are comparable to cisgender children in measures of mental health.

    Dr. Ryan Gorton: “In a cross-sectional study of 141 transgender patients, Kuiper and Cohen-Kittenis found that after medical intervention and treatments, suicide fell from 19% to 0% in transgender men and from 24% to 6% in transgender women”

    Murad, et al., 2010: "Significant decrease in suicidality post-treatment. The average reduction was from 30 percent pretreatment to 8 percent post treatment. ... A meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that 78 percent of transgender people had improved psychological functioning after treatment."

    De Cuypere, et al., 2006: Rate of suicide attempts dropped dramatically from 29.3 percent to 5.1 percent after receiving medical and surgical treatment among Dutch patients treated from 1986-2001.

    UK study: "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition.

    Smith Y, 2005: Participants improved on 13 out of 14 mental health measures after receiving treatments.

    Lawrence, 2003: Surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives

    There are a lot of studies showing that transition improves mental health and quality of life while reducing dysphoria.

    Not to mention this 2010 meta-analysis of 28 different studies, which found that transition is extremely effective at reducing dysphoria and improving quality of life.

  3. #103
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    Shall we move on to trans kids next, guys?
    I think an interesting topic relating to this, would be a discussion about Last of Us 2 and a specific voice actor. Because of all the shit JK might be getting, the death threats the voice actress is getting for doing her job, is... interesting.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  4. #104
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    She doesn't hate transgender people though.

    She just thinks that sex is an important characteristic and one that should be defended in law and not be erased in favor of gender.

    Stop confusing disagreement for hate.
    Yeah it’s so important to her that she writes under a male pen name. That she borrowed from the guy who invented conversion therapy.

    TERFs gonna TERF.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  5. #105
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yeah it’s so important to her that she writes under a male pen name. That she borrowed from the guy who invented conversion therapy.

    TERFs gonna TERF.
    This is where gamer gate and TERF find common ground... how fucked up is that?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  6. #106
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I think an interesting topic relating to this, would be a discussion about Last of Us 2 and a specific voice actor. Because of all the shit JK might be getting, the death threats the voice actress is getting for doing her job, is... interesting.
    I think a better discussion would be in regards to the TERFs piling on the most successful feminist author alive right now -- Margaret Atwood. TERFs have the child's author, and trans people have the actual feminist writer.

  7. #107
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    This is where gamer gate and TERF find common ground... how fucked up is that?
    Not really, if you consider Gamergate was preceded by Elevatorgate and Dawkins’ “Dear Muslima” letter. Using feminism as a cudgel against minorities is a time honored practice for British academics.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  8. #108
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Hey, do you all think our two boys here have read the WPATH SoC? It's only been the guiding document for transgender healthcare for 41 years. It's funny how TERFs never mention it, right?

    C'mon boys, think you can honestly think you can discuss us without knowing the actual SoC? I'll link it for you. It's only, like, 70 pages, and then you have 20 more pages of citations to mine! You'll be ready for that WPATH version 8 symposium in no time flat!

    Link.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    Yup, I read it. It's hyperbolic, which is what Parker was pointing out and I intentionally cut off. That's my entire point. You people (particularly TERFs) are built to exist on pure hyperbole. That's her entire schtick. That's Rowling's entire schtick. Nothing you guys claim is remotely connected to reality -- like claiming the neo-Nazis can be reasoned with or trans people existing making you out to be Nazis.

    I'm looking forward to burying you in data tonight if this doesn't get shut down, btw.
    Data that people don't abandon hateful groups or what are effective methods of making people abandon hateful groups???

    Like I said her article isn't particularly offensive or disconnected from reality bc I dont think the science is even settled on this

    Its not something I would do but the article describes the case of someone that has seen success at it

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Uhm... there is literally a dude defending Rowing, arguing that women bathrooms are salvation from being raped by men. But... Ednus...
    It's just seems odd to me.
    A year ago he's quoting Ghandi. Nowadays he's preaching that hate should be fought with hate, violence should be fought with violence. This reversal is intriguing. But I have to wonder if this reflects personal growth.

  11. #111
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Data that people don't abandon hateful groups or what are effective methods of making people abandon hateful groups???

    Like I said her article isn't particularly offensive or disconnected from reality bc I dont think the science is even settled on this

    Its not something I would do but the article describes the case of someone that has seen success at it
    Of course it is. She's compared treating transgender kids to conversion therapy, which runs completely counter to what the American Academy of Pediatrics and American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians have concluded.

    She also seems to think that trans kids in the UK are being prescribed right away. The average NHS wait time for trans folks in the UK to even get an appointment to talk about HRT is 18 to 36 months. Precisely one clinic treats trans kids, and the wait time is even longer.

    But, sure, rushing!

    You have a LOT of reading to do now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    From the document linked above, about the Danish study TERFs like to quote

    One widely cited study, using data on 127 Dutch youth, counted participants as desisters if they did not actively return to the clinic as teenagers. Although the authors’ program was the only child and adolescent gender clinic in the Netherlands, it is possible that some persisters sought treatment elsewhere, continued to have gender dysphoria or transitioned without medical help.

    Furthermore, family or peer pressures cause some research participants to hide their ongoing gender dysphoria. In one case, a 15-year old claimed to have no gender dysphoria at follow-up, but contacted the clinic a year later to say that she had “lied” about her feelings because she was embarrassed. These cases are examples of how research findings can be far less clear than they seem, especially when participants feel pressured to accept their sex assigned at birth.

  12. #112
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's just seems odd to me.
    A year ago he's quoting Ghandi. Nowadays he's preaching that hate should be fought with hate, violence should be fought with violence. This reversal is intriguing. But I have to wonder if this reflects personal growth.
    You can't possibly be speaking about me, but you seem to be. Nothing you've stated here in any way reflects anything I have ever posted to these forums.

    You're making shit up, seemingly because you can't actually address the meat of my actual argument.

  13. #113
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's just seems odd to me.
    A year ago he's quoting Ghandi. Nowadays he's preaching that hate should be fought with hate, violence should be fought with violence. This reversal is intriguing. But I have to wonder if this reflects personal growth.
    It would seem odd... because arguing to tolerate intolerance, is odd... comparing someone expressing their view that a comment was hateful, to being hateful... is odd... I would evaluate holding an opinion, that I recognize as odd.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You can't possibly be speaking about me, but you seem to be. Nothing you've stated here in any way reflects anything I have ever posted to these forums.

    You're making shit up, seemingly because you can't actually address the meat of my actual argument.
    It must suck to be a teacher now a day... every kid that gets a test answer wrong, has to be reassured it’s not because of hate, but due to not understanding the subject.

    Edit: imagine a kid handing in a history report from the perspective of the lizard people conspiracy. Then have their parents start bitching while looking for zippers on the faculty.
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-07-09 at 03:32 AM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  14. #114
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Now, let's look at Kristina Olson's work on trans youth. I like this short FAQ where she provides answers and links to her research from the APA.

    We have two main findings so far. The first is that the gender development of socially transitioned trans kids seems to look a lot like that of cisgender kids [kids who are not transgender]. They show similar gender preferences and similar gender identities as their gender-matched peers and gender-typical siblings. These are kids that are saying, “I’m a girl,” and on all the traditional measures of gender development in the literature they look like the average cisgender girl (Child Development Perspectives, Vol. 12, No. 2, 2018).

    Our second finding is that these kids, who are living as their gender identity in everyday life and supported by their families in that identity, seem to have pretty good mental health (Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, Vol. 56, No. 2, 2017). They have slightly higher anxiety compared with cisgender kids but similar rates of depression—nowhere near the kind of clinical levels that we often see in prior studies of transgender teens and transgender adults.
    Right. Previous studies that look at transgender teens and adults have often found very high rates of anxiety, depression and suicidality. But the majority of people who are transgender adults today didn’t have the kinds of experiences that the kids I’m following did. Namely, they didn’t live as their identified gender early in their development. They didn’t necessarily have family support for their identity. It was a different time in history. What we’re trying to do now is to understand which of those differences might explain why these kids are doing so well. And we want to follow these kids to understand whether this good mental health we’re seeing at early ages continues as they move into adolescence.
    Oh man, the kids are happier than the adults who were forced to wait? I wish we could post battered old memes because I so want to post a surprised Pikachu face.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    It would seem odd... because arguing to tolerate intolerance, is odd... comparing someone expressing their view that a comment was hateful, to being hateful... is odd... I would evaluate holding an opinion, that I recognize as odd.
    My main issue with the whole paradox of tolerance is that its being used as an excuse to silence opinions people don't like

    If you haven't read this piece by the ACLU

    https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie

    It describes a case the ACLU took where they defended the first amendment rights of nazis and it goes into length about how in other contexts the laws that are introduced to stop Nazis from marching could have been used to criminalize progressive movements.

  16. #116
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    My main issue with the whole paradox of tolerance is that its being used as an excuse to silence opinions people don't like
    No, your whole problem is you tried to defend a numpty children's author in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence and chose to believe her rather than seeking out said evidence.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenGoldSharpie View Post
    Of course it is. She's compared treating transgender kids to conversion therapy, which runs completely counter to what the American Academy of Pediatrics and American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians have concluded.

    She also seems to think that trans kids in the UK are being prescribed right away. The average NHS wait time for trans folks in the UK to even get an appointment to talk about HRT is 18 to 36 months. Precisely one clinic treats trans kids, and the wait time is even longer.

    But, sure, rushing!

    You have a LOT of reading to do now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    From the document linked above, about the Danish study TERFs like to quote
    Employees at Tavistock have literally stated that they rush kids



    Now you are going to tell us about how the BBC is some alt-right group or what??
    Last edited by NED funded; 2020-07-09 at 03:38 AM.

  18. #118
    The Lightbringer GreenGoldSharpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Employees at Tavistock have literally stated that they rushed kids



    Now you are going to tell us about how the BBC is some alt-right group or what??
    You mean the people who worked there for a relatively short time and one who quit in 2004 and have subsequently built a career being TERFs? See, this is what happens when you use TERF resources. They lie. Just like the how Dhejne is quoted.

    How can they be rushed when the wait is several years long, exactly?

  19. #119
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    My main issue with the whole paradox of tolerance is that its being used as an excuse to silence opinions people don't like
    This is a lie. You're lying.

    Being told to fuck off and take your hate somewhere else is not "silencing" anyone. It's telling them "not on my property". That's it.

    They're free to go anywhere else that'll have them, or to stand in a public space and say their peace.

    They are not "silenced".

    The claim that they are is a lie.

    If you haven't read this piece by the ACLU

    https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie

    It describes a case the ACLU took where they defended the first amendment rights of nazis and it goes into length about how in other contexts the laws that are introduced to stop Nazis from marching could have been used to criminalize progressive movements.
    And?

    That's a weakness of American law, yes; that it couldn't distinguish between the two based on content and context. That isn't a positive.

  20. #120
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And?

    That's a weakness of American law, yes; that it couldn't distinguish between the two based on content and context. That isn't a positive.
    Why not? The ability to project a minority opinion is an important right. It was integral for women's rights, civil rights, LBGTQ rights, and now trans rights. The reason we don't want the government to dictate the morality of speech, to decide what is right or wrong, is because even if you are absolutely convinced that you are 100% right and at no point in the future will your current views be expanded upon further, your preferred political party isnt going to stay in power indefinitely. Even if Trump loses in November, it does not mean that the Democrats will have an eternal monopoly on governance.

    In other words, if you want the government to be able to decide what is protected or what is not depending on context, you need to be ready for that to be turned around on you.

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