Ret getting nerfed hard again in alpha while not addressing gameplay issues.

[LazuOG]

What a silly statement.

If pure dps specs should always be ahead of hybrids... who should make up for the bottom half dps specs if neither them nor hybrids should be down there? I mean, someone has to be down there.

The point isn't even about who's supposed to be down there, it's more about the same handful of specs always being down there with little to no exception. Ret players don't demand to always be #1, they'd just like it to be the case that they're not #23 90% of the time and #16 at their best times.

You didn't understand the statement tbf.

Pure dps =3 specs, semi-hybird = 2 dps specs, true hybrid = 1 dps spec. (Arbitrary titles given by me)

If I understand correctly he wants the top dps specs to consist of at least one pure dps spec, while all hybrids can be found at least in the mid-tier. The bottom tier therefore is made up by specs whose dps counterpart already has a place in high/mid tier.

[Tyris Flare]

Basically that yeah. But I mean also, the delta shouldn't look like the insane mess of 8.3. Other tiers have been much closer to the 10-15% gap rather than 30%+ gap we have now.

But pure dps have 3 specs so it is okay for those specs to be a little more niche. That means sometimes they'll excel on a fight and sometimes they won't, but at least the player can change to x instead of y. For classes like monks and paladins, there is 0 choice. Their kit needs to be competitive for all types of content with a simple talent swap, but that probably means they shouldn't be the best at any particular type of fight (single, cleave, spread cleave, etc).

Ret is in the middle very frequently, which is fine. Windwalkers are usually dumpster tier, which is not at all fine.

[Varaben]

The pure vs hybrid debate should have died a long time ago. It made sense when Ret brought judgment of light/wisdom (both of which were incredibly strong) and Rogues brought no utility. Why would rogue do the same or less dps? The hybrid tax made sense and those of us playing hybrids were ok paying it. Ask enhancement shamans in TBC. They brought so much raid damage that no one questioned their inclusion (assuming you brought a melee squad).

But now, why wouldn’t they try to balance all of the dps specs? I understand mathematically that having 3 dps specs gives you the best chance of having a competitive spec. However I think there’s still some belief that because Ret brings LOH, we shouldn’t do competitive dps, and that doesn’t make sense to me.

[Justitiaxx]

The pure vs hybrid debate should have died a long time ago. It made sense when Ret brought judgment of light/wisdom (both of which were incredibly strong) and Rogues brought no utility. Why would rogue do the same or less dps? The hybrid tax made sense and those of us playing hybrids were ok paying it. Ask enhancement shamans in TBC. They brought so much raid damage that no one questioned their inclusion (assuming you brought a melee squad).

But now, why wouldn’t they try to balance all of the dps specs? I understand mathematically that having 3 dps specs gives you the best chance of having a competitive spec. However I think there’s still some belief that because Ret brings LOH, we shouldn’t do competitive dps, and that doesn’t make sense to me.

^ Agree with this 100%, especially when you see "pure" DPS specs outheal and outdamage "hybrid" snowflakes. Blizzard's hybrid tax worked in WOTLK because of the manner in which talent trees and specialisations double dipped in Stam > Intel (Prot Holy) [ Pre 3.2.2], Str based on x% MP+INT and x% Stam (ProtRet) [Post 3.2.2], coefficient of holy shock (Shockadin = 34/0/37 build) and who can forget Ret Healer 0/20/51 build that outhealed healers on Valithria Dreamwalker due to Sheath of Light mechanics and Art of War procs .

Sadly all that is gone now. Woe to Ghost Crawler and Ion Hazzikostas.

[Uvania]

After 15 years of paladin i rerolled in 8.3 to a hunter instead... I never liked the holy power management and now im forced to it in all 3 specs, bring back tbc and wotlk paladins, best damn time ever ������

Ret was decent for me in 8.3 with the right essences and corruption, i might reconsider paladin halfway through shadowlands or something?

[AlmightyGerkin]

The "community" perception means just as much as actual performance, at least for M+. My ret is my only alt and even at 2kIO with 3.8kIO on my main it was painful to try to get into even just a weekly +15-16.

With countless players playing dps specs and dwarfing the % of people playing healers and tanks finding a dps spot is difficult when it comes to keys cause people are picky when it comes to m+. Way around this is just so your key. Never get declined and eventually get your 15 in for the week.

[iosdeveloper]

i'm playing ret, cuz it was my main in WotLK and shlands feels like an expansion to "relive" WotLK