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  1. #41
    Not trying to sound whiny or cynical, but I actually liked the pruning in Legion, so all this stuff looks daunting to my aging fingers, wrists, and eyes.

    The Night Fae ability concerns me; it's going to be very desirable (dare I say "required"?) and managing it will (for me) be annoying because there's already so much going on in a raid encounter that, 16 years on from launch, I have trouble keeping up with things now as it is!

    So, in SL, it'll look something like this:

    - DPS "rotation";
    - Maintain Seraphim and/or Inquisition buffs on yourself;
    - Boss mechanics, which seem to get nuttier and more manic with each expansion;
    - Make sure to glance over at raid frames and be ready with your macros for LoH, BoP, BoF, Cleanse, and once again, BoS;
    - Have macros set and bound for Blessing of Seasons buffs, and keep them rolling;
    - Coordinating with other Night Fae paladins in raid to maximize the buffs on one or multiple allies;
    - Don't buff them too soon or too late.

    And if you don't pick Night Fae for raiding, LOL?

    From what I've seen, Venthyr looks like it'll be the pick for players who primarily do M+.
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2020-08-05 at 05:24 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    Not trying to sound whiny or cynical, but I actually liked the pruning in Legion, so all this stuff looks daunting to my aging fingers, wrists, and eyes.

    The Night Fae ability concerns me; it's going to be very desirable (dare I say "required"?) and managing it will (for me) be annoying because there's already so much going on in a raid encounter that, 16 years on from launch, I have trouble keeping up with things now as it is!

    So, in SL, it'll look something like this:

    - DPS "rotation";
    - Maintain Seraphim and/or Inquisition buffs on yourself;
    - Boss mechanics, which seem to get nuttier and more manic with each expansion;
    - Make sure to glance over at raid frames and be ready with your macros for LoH, BoP, BoF, Cleanse, and once again, BoS;
    - Have macros set and bound for Blessing of Seasons buffs, and keep them rolling;
    - Coordinating with other Night Fae paladins in raid to maximize the buffs on one or multiple allies;
    - Don't buff them too soon or too late.

    And if you don't pick Night Fae for raiding, LOL?

    From what I've seen, Venthyr looks like it'll be the pick for players who primarily do M+.
    excepty you can pick nightfae and basically have shadowmeld.

  3. #43
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    HoPo is such a boring build/spend system.

    I wish they'd turn HoPo into a stacking-seal system. Imagine your builders actually giving you minor buffs, and you want to spend them while maintaining a single stack to keep the buff. Talents would augment the seal buffs.

    Another thing they could maybe try is gameplay like Yrel from HotS. She swings a giant hammer around, and if you charge the swing fully before releasing, it is more effective. That said, a half swing is sometimes better in a pinch, and you can use your trait occasionally to make the swing instant-cast.

    I really love Ret fantasy, but is HoPo is super boring.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    HoPo is such a boring build/spend system.

    I wish they'd turn HoPo into a stacking-seal system. Imagine your builders actually giving you minor buffs, and you want to spend them while maintaining a single stack to keep the buff. Talents would augment the seal buffs.

    Another thing they could maybe try is gameplay like Yrel from HotS. She swings a giant hammer around, and if you charge the swing fully before releasing, it is more effective. That said, a half swing is sometimes better in a pinch, and you can use your trait occasionally to make the swing instant-cast.

    I really love Ret fantasy, but is HoPo is super boring.
    They already tried a minor buff system in WoD where the Judgement gave a buff based on your Seal. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
    Empowered Seals – Your seals also cause your Judgments to empower you with an additional beneficial effect which persists through changing seals.

    Judgment of Justice boosts movement speed by 20% for 20 seconds.
    Judgment of Insight heals you for 5% of your max health every 2 seconds for 20 seconds.
    Judgment of Truth boosts your attack power by 30% for 20 seconds.
    Judgment of Righteousness increases your attack speed by 15% for 20 seconds.
    Also, the half swing sounds like how TV used to work (1/2/3 HoPo) and it never felt good using it with less than 3p.

  5. #45
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    The only way to make anything less than a fully powered HP ability worthwhile is to basically treat every 'tier' of HP spent as it's own ability. But that just gets you back in to the balance nightmare of every HP spender effectively being 3 abilities in one.

  6. #46
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mumba View Post
    They already tried a minor buff system in WoD where the Judgement gave a buff based on your Seal. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
    That's fair. The system I envision would actually replace the HoPo UI with the seals, and would be applied by Crusader Strike (which would be split into 3 strikes that share CD and charges). The first stack of a seal would give the most buffs, with diminishing returns on the other stacks. A spender would eat 3 stacks, but will divide the stacks by each available seal if available. Wake of Ashes damage would be empowered by each seal type active, and would extend seal duration for a bit.

    The core gameplay would be:
    - Short fights, build only the seal that does immediate damage, and spend all 3 stacks of it for quick bursts.
    - Long fights, you would want to have 1-2 of each stack active at all times, and 2 of each before using a spender. Wake of Ashes would help maintain the durations.

    I would also toss TV and make Judgement the single-target spender, because it deserves to be a better spell.

    I've thought about this redesign for a while :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Mumba View Post
    Also, the half swing sounds like how TV used to work (1/2/3 HoPo) and it never felt good using it with less than 3p.
    It's more of a timing/decision making thing in hots. A full charge doesn't necessarily do more damage, but it will stun or push enemies away. Something similar for rets would give us some more utility, without requiring another button.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mumba View Post
    They already tried a minor buff system in WoD where the Judgement gave a buff based on your Seal. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
    Fondly remembered by PvPers. Hard to master but greatly increased ret's capabilities compared to the easier choice on that tier, final verdict.

  8. #48
    Ret is not even looking that bad, a lot of utility and night fae looking really strong with the seasons buff + the movement ability if they dont nerf it is a double blink and if depending on the soulbind you pick you can even get a shadowmeld effect at the end

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleax View Post
    I do think that Holy Power is not the problem.

    Simply put Ret were perfectly fine in WoD with HP. In PvP they were a support spec that delivered (and in Legion a Dps spec that still delivered albeit differently).

    Now maybie the other specs won't be back for the best in SL with HP, but that will be a design flaw more than anything to do with HP (imo).
    Whats wrong with ret in SL? Seems like the best iteration since at least WoD. Definitely better than Legion and BFA.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Whats wrong with ret in SL? Seems like the best iteration since at least WoD. Definitely better than Legion and BFA.
    Dead talents(too many), Spec is slower, holy power generation in general has gone down. damage is low.

    Playing beta has already made me concerned this will be a dead spec at max level. there are a few abilities that could be better with number tuning.

    i copied over my retail paladin in full mythic nyalotha gear and the spec is so much worse in terms of downtime, even with 30% haste i am waiting a good 3-4 seconds auto attacking, blade of justice honestly feels like it resets less than it used to, wake of ashes only generating 3 holy power also gives me more downtime. All abilities on cd? well i can use consecration which does less damage than crusader strike lmao.

    There's a lot more to say however after playing the other melee specs i don't see a reason to play such a dysfunctional spec, 0 feedback has been responded to and it shows.

  11. #51
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mumba View Post
    They already tried a minor buff system in WoD where the Judgement gave a buff based on your Seal. I don't remember anyone enjoying it.
    That's because it was a Talent and a trash one at that for the talents it shared a row with. The Seal system in Wrath was far better than any HoPo system they've had yet.

  12. #52
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kebabmasterxd View Post
    Dead talents(too many), Spec is slower, holy power generation in general has gone down. damage is low.

    Playing beta has already made me concerned this will be a dead spec at max level. there are a few abilities that could be better with number tuning.

    i copied over my retail paladin in full mythic nyalotha gear and the spec is so much worse in terms of downtime, even with 30% haste i am waiting a good 3-4 seconds auto attacking, blade of justice honestly feels like it resets less than it used to, wake of ashes only generating 3 holy power also gives me more downtime. All abilities on cd? well i can use consecration which does less damage than crusader strike lmao.

    There's a lot more to say however after playing the other melee specs i don't see a reason to play such a dysfunctional spec, 0 feedback has been responded to and it shows.
    HoPo is just so damn boring for ret. Get 3 stacks, spend em. Maybe you have talents that allow you to spend on maintenance buffs, but that hardly improves the decision-making complexity needed for a compelling rotation.

    If they added compelling stackable seals, it would add so much more to the spec. Maybe abilities cost a lot more mana now, but if you hold onto 3 stacks of wis, you can regen it all back quickly. Maybe you have 3 stacks of Seal of Inquisition up to increase your attack speed and crit chance for the boss, but adds are coming so you start using Crusader Seal for increased holy damage.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    HoPo is just so damn boring for ret. Get 3 stacks, spend em. Maybe you have talents that allow you to spend on maintenance buffs, but that hardly improves the decision-making complexity needed for a compelling rotation.
    You know, I'm going to come out and say it - I like Holy Power.

    As much as people fawn over WotLK Ret it was, quite frankly, something of a dull spec. When everything hits hard there's not really any one thing that stands out as being particularly powerful or special. All your spells really did, on functional level, was damage. The healing on Divine Storm was never a consideration in it's usage. The debuff on Judgement was never something you really thought about outside of the initial decision on which one you're going to be using. Crusader Stike and Consecration were simple damage spells without much in the way of interest going on. Hammer of Wrath wasn't interesting outside of its usage being conditional.

    There was never that one really cool thing because, well... Everything was just alright. Not incredible, not terrible, just mediocre. And the result was a mediocre spec to play.

    Holy Power, by design, builds in some anticipation to the spec. That cyclical build up time to a bursty hit followed by the payoff to repeat fixes a lot of those earlier design issues. It gives Ret a powerful attack to build towards that can be allowed to hit for crazy damage. It adds considerations to your skills beyond just their damage and cooldown.

    It allows for more interesting skills that ask the players to make more well thought out decisions. It means you can have interesting and powerful abilities and it means you can create fun and engaging gameplay loops.

    While I agree that Holy Power could be executed on better, it's still a far better system than Ret had at any point before it. Personally, I'd like to see Holy Power awarded for using Cleanse, Interrupting skills with HoJ and various other skill expresive ways to build it beyond just damage. It would create cases where the good Rets can really pull ahead of their competion.

    Just because Holy Power isn't perfect doesn't make it automatically bad. It's a hell of a lot better on a practical and a mechanical level than the old faceroll style from WotLK or the AFK auto attack Rets from Vanilla/TBC.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    I mean, sure, if you ignore all our dead talents and our trash mobility that we've been complaining about nonstop for 5 years, our constantly increasing cooldown times on builders despite complaining for all of BFA about the massive deadzone in our rotation, Retribution Aura even existing...

    Yeah, sure.

    Maybe go read the beta feedback thread, things are far from peachy.
    You have a case of not knowing the state other specs are in.

    MM hunter needs a rework like SP. It is astouding how badly designed it is.
    In Uldir they ignored all their abilities except aimed shot and the focus generator. 2 button class. That's how broken it was.
    The problems were patched with azerite traits, but now that they are gone, guess what? Likely will be broken again.

    Imagine Ret being so broken that all you use is crusader strike and TV. Nah... Ret is fine. It only needs some adjustments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    Not trying to sound whiny or cynical, but I actually liked the pruning in Legion, so all this stuff looks daunting to my aging fingers, wrists, and eyes.

    The Night Fae ability concerns me; it's going to be very desirable (dare I say "required"?) and managing it will (for me) be annoying because there's already so much going on in a raid encounter that, 16 years on from launch, I have trouble keeping up with things now as it is!

    So, in SL, it'll look something like this:

    - DPS "rotation";
    - Maintain Seraphim and/or Inquisition buffs on yourself;
    - Boss mechanics, which seem to get nuttier and more manic with each expansion;
    - Make sure to glance over at raid frames and be ready with your macros for LoH, BoP, BoF, Cleanse, and once again, BoS;
    - Have macros set and bound for Blessing of Seasons buffs, and keep them rolling;
    - Coordinating with other Night Fae paladins in raid to maximize the buffs on one or multiple allies;
    - Don't buff them too soon or too late.

    And if you don't pick Night Fae for raiding, LOL?

    From what I've seen, Venthyr looks like it'll be the pick for players who primarily do M+.
    Seasons is a single target buff. I see no point in casting them on other people except the healing one. Once it stopped being party wide, this buff lost most of it's use. The dps you will lose casting that stuff every 30 seconds hardly seems worthwhile except for the wings window.
    Unless they made it diferent buttons, you will still have to cycle through all seasons to get back to summer. That's gotta feel annoying.

    The kyrian ability comes with a 5% matery bonus and versatility bonus.
    Night fae soulbinds are not very good from what i see either. So far you cannot have 3 output conduits with them either.

    This stuff is kyrian vs Venthyr imo, assuming the necrolord ability requires a gcd.

    But, ofc, this needs testing and i'm not on beta.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-08-10 at 11:05 PM.

  15. #55
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You have a case of not knowing the state other specs are in.

    MM hunter needs a rework like SP. It is astouding how badly designed it is.
    In Uldir they ignored all their abilities except aimed shot and the focus generator. 2 button class. That's how broken it was.
    The problems were patched with azerite traits, but now that they are gone, guess what? Likely will be broken again.

    Imagine Ret being so broken that all you use is crusader strike and TV. Nah... Ret is fine. It only needs some adjustments.
    Your PvE rotation is not the whole game, smartypants. You have a case of not seeing beyond raid performance, maybe that's all you care about, but you don't speak for the rest of us.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-11 at 01:42 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Your PvE rotation is not the whole game, smartypants. You have a case of not seeing beyond raid performance, maybe that's all you care about, but you don't speak for the rest of us.
    You make no sense whatsoever. But, whatever. If you want to turn a blind eye to bigger issues in the game, it is your choice to do so. As it is my choice to point out it is reductive.

  17. #57
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You make no sense whatsoever.
    You were just complaining about MM's rotation being 2 buttons because they only used Aimed and Steady Shot, and then went on to say Ret isn't broken because it doesn't also have a 2 button rotation... you were complaining about a broken rotation that was the result of bad tuning... I am complaining about mostly mechanics.

    If you want to turn a blind eye to bigger issues in the game, it is your choice to do so.
    I have done that literally not once, not to mention the fact that what constitutes a "bigger issue" is 1,000% opinion, if someone's "bigger issue" is class design, who the hell are you to tell them they are wrong?

    Us wanting fixes for Ret's issues - which include no less than 6 dead talents (not including PvP talents), several of which are trap talents that are detrimental to even pick (like Final Verdict, and Healing Hands, which is completely nonfunctional in ranked PvP, it literally does not function in Arenas and RBGs because the one ability it alters, Lay on Hands, cannot be used there), garbage mobility, a gaping rotational deadzone, and the fact that Blizzard has ignored our feedback on the Retribution passive (now Aura) that nonsensically rewards us for the death of an ally for all of legion, BFA, and SLands beta - does not detract from other parts of the game, not to mention most of what you probly consider a "bigger issue" is handled by a completely different group of developers than the ones handling class design... If you think the above-mentioned things don't warrant fixing I don't know what to say to you.

    You go voice your concerns for shit you want fixed, we'll voice ours. You complaining about our complaints doesn't help you in any way, so sod off.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-11 at 06:48 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You have a case of not knowing the state other specs are in.
    -snip-
    hey, shitwad, this is a thread on the ret spec in the paladin forum, fuck off with your whataboutism.

    Please refrain from insulting other forum users. -Malthanis

  19. #59
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    hey, shitwad, this is a thread on the ret spec in the paladin forum, fuck off with your whataboutism.
    Also this.
    @Swnem If you have complaints about Hunter don't come into a Ret thread in the Paladin forum section to whine about how you think you need attention more, go to your own damn forum section and complain there.

    That being said, your whine about hunters in Uldir only pressing two buttons won't come true again now that traits are gone, because it wasn't "fixed later with traits", it was caused by them, specifically the trait that caused Steady Shot to put a stacking debuff on your target that increased the damage of Aimed Shot... Without Azerite traits that problem literally could not have existed, so your complaint about how it "likely will be broken again" without Azerite is based on completely false information. The removal of these traits cannot cause that problem to resurface because THE TRAITS WERE THE PROBLEM. In the future I'd suggest you educate yourself on the issues you wish to complain about before you complain about them instead of wasting everyone's time, including yours. You currently have a case of not knowing the state of your own goddamn spec.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-11 at 06:52 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigxy View Post
    Don't worry, it's only alpha, they'll fix it - just like every other expansion clearly proved!

    ...Now with that mandatory, sorry excuse out of the way: Yeah, I'm not expecting much.
    Don't worry it's only alpha, beta, release, x.1, x.2, x.3, oh wait it's over.

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