Ret getting nerfed hard again in alpha while not addressing gameplay issues.

[Thylight]

coming in Shadowlands or in the game now?

Coming in Shadowlands.

Also, Ret's gameplay on Beta isn't bad. Yes its slow spec at the beginning of the expansion, but it's not like you dont have anything to press. In SL you almost always have something to press, hence, Ret is almost GCD locked (every GCD being used). Only in rear moments there is nothing to press. However, as mentioned before, it's slow spec due to low haste and long GCDs. It takes time for spells to recharge, which I personally don't like and much rather enjoy havoc or fury. Might come back to Ret later in the expansion when there are more stats.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

As long as I still feel like a knight with divine powers, send to shield others and act retribution upon the wicked, I'll still feel like a paladin!

[Kalisandra]

Coming in Shadowlands.

Also, Ret's gameplay on Beta isn't bad. Yes its slow spec at the beginning of the expansion, but it's not like you dont have anything to press. In SL you almost always have something to press, hence, Ret is almost GCD locked (every GCD being used). Only in rear moments there is nothing to press. However, as mentioned before, it's slow spec due to low haste and long GCDs. It takes time for spells to recharge, which I personally don't like and much rather enjoy havoc or fury. Might come back to Ret later in the expansion when there are more stats.

That's not true. If you take the talents that give 45s and 1 min CDs you'll have plenty to press for a short window, then it's back to a rotation with holes all over, and as Blade has a longer CD, there are plenty of those holes.

Haste, in SL as now, will make the holes shorter but more common.

[Demsi]

Just go sword&board "ret" for PVP.

This is on ptr right? because on the ptr essences and azerite traits can still be used, i'm more curious to see if you can do this on the beta

[Gloriandus]

Holy mackerel arena is boring it watch. People running around pillars over and over

[Thylight]

That's not true. If you take the talents that give 45s and 1 min CDs you'll have plenty to press for a short window, then it's back to a rotation with holes all over, and as Blade has a longer CD, there are plenty of those holes.

Haste, in SL as now, will make the holes shorter but more common.

Have you tried it in Beta or just read the news, watched YouTube reviews? Because I did, and as I've mentioned before, of course you have plenty to press, Ret is almost GCD locked. Blade feels fine with the middle row talent (forgot the name of it). My main concern that it's SLOW due to low haste levels. You have ability (e.g. Blade) off CD which you could press, but you can't do it immediately do to long GCD because of low haste.

Additionally, 1 min CD talents are fun to play, but with current numbers tuning they're not rewarding, you're setting up for this huge burst with 3-4 CDs and your damage is just average compared to like one eye beam.

[ExiHext]

Just took a look at the "talent trees" from soulbinds. Man, are they boring. 80% is stuff you won't even notice. I mean weapon durability? Fall damage? Ok. That feature is not worth the hassle. And looking through ret conduits it's almost all "x% chance to do y% of damage"...Just let those things do full damage and decrase the chance. I mean 15% TV damage? Come on. And seeing how other classes get things like "your main damage cd is increased by x sec" or "you get x% of your main ressource" I can't help the feeling that there wasn't put much effort into ret.

[Kalisandra]

Have you tried it in Beta or just read the news, watched YouTube reviews? Because I did, and as I've mentioned before, of course you have plenty to press, Ret is almost GCD locked. Blade feels fine with the middle row talent (forgot the name of it). My main concern that it's SLOW due to low haste levels. You have ability (e.g. Blade) off CD which you could press, but you can't do it immediately do to long GCD because of low haste.

Additionally, 1 min CD talents are fun to play, but with current numbers tuning they're not rewarding, you're setting up for this huge burst with 3-4 CDs and your damage is just average compared to like one eye beam.

Yes, I tried it on the beta. And no, Ret is not almost GCD locked outside of wings/execute range (HoW makes it locked), unless Art of War procs constantly and evenly and that means having the talent and some decent luck. At best this locks us into that one talent or we have a rotation that feels awful. I suppose we should be thankful it's by far the best talent on that row.

I hope FR isn't over-nerfed as I quite like it (though it being simply centred on your current target would be better than the reticle it has now, I think). I'm okay with ES - it least it's interesting in its current form. Seraphim I really dislike and hope it's not a clear top performer, but it probably will be if ES+FR is the preferred build, because it stacks with them so well.

Damage certainly need tuning. Currently when we're bursting we're maybe matching the output of some of the higher performers sustained DPS, and as we hit like a wet noodle outside of cooldowns, that's just not acceptable.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot - you can use Consecration as a filler if it's off cooldown, so that does actually make us almost GCD locked. It's almost worthless, but it's there.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

So how viable is Consecration in the rotation? It would seem like a nice DoT

[naeblis495]

you only press it on 8+ targets or when you have holes in your rotation .

[Demsi]

So how viable is Consecration in the rotation? It would seem like a nice DoT

It has no interactions with anything in your kit and the damage is terrible, so not very viable

[ExiHext]

I legit am afraid of login into prepatch. Already see people complaining that ret rotation is slow af. If I factor in the loss of Memory of Lucid Dreams come SL I am not sure I can stand that. Anyone share their insight?

[Lorianus]

So how viable is Consecration in the rotation? It would seem like a nice DoT

You press it when everything is on cooldown and nothing comes off cooldown in the next 1.5 seconds global cooldown, thats how terrible it is.

[Fargus]

When was the last time ret was actually a upper-mid to top dps spec in the game? I haven't played since Legion but it sounds like the same story, time and time again.

[Varaben]

When was the last time ret was actually a upper-mid to top dps spec in the game? I haven't played since Legion but it sounds like the same story, time and time again.

It was competitive in WOD at least in the first couple tiers.

- - - Updated - - -

You press it when everything is on cooldown and nothing comes off cooldown in the next 1.5 seconds global cooldown, thats how terrible it is.

It really is terrible right now. It’s honestly more of a flavor ability and used in pvp for breaking stealth and stuff like that.

[Justitiaxx]

So how viable is Consecration in the rotation? It would seem like a nice DoT

It's a filler, does very low damage atleast in beta and even on live pre-patch.

[Nynax]

When was the last time ret was actually a upper-mid to top dps spec in the game? I haven't played since Legion but it sounds like the same story, time and time again.

It was competitive in WOD at least in the first couple tiers.

Will 2nd this. I felt like a badass in WoD. Even in Hellfire Citadel, I had some glorious moments.

[Hoeth]

The "community" perception means just as much as actual performance, at least for M+. My ret is my only alt and even at 2kIO with 3.8kIO on my main it was painful to try to get into even just a weekly +15-16.

[Tyris Flare]

When was the last time ret was actually a upper-mid to top dps spec in the game? I haven't played since Legion but it sounds like the same story, time and time again.

It was top half in EP.

Though in my opinion, hybrid dps specs should never be top tier but also never be below half. If you only have the one dps spec, it needs a complete toolkit capable of handing all kinds of content.

Windwalker monk is the ultimate embarrassment of Blizzard balance for many years running. At least ret isn't that terrible!

The "community" perception means just as much as actual performance, at least for M+. My ret is my only alt and even at 2kIO with 3.8kIO on my main it was painful to try to get into even just a weekly +15-16.

Yeah I almost never pugged until the end of the tier, but it was difficult getting into high teens even with a 3300 on my paladin where I had done all 20/21s.

still seems like the tyranny of rogues will endure in SL as well

[Gasparde]

Though in my opinion, hybrid dps specs should never be top tier but also never be below half. If you only have the one dps spec, it needs a complete toolkit capable of handing all kinds of content.

What a silly statement.

If pure dps specs should always be ahead of hybrids... who should make up for the bottom half dps specs if neither them nor hybrids should be down there? I mean, someone has to be down there.

The point isn't even about who's supposed to be down there, it's more about the same handful of specs always being down there with little to no exception. Ret players don't demand to always be #1, they'd just like it to be the case that they're not #23 90% of the time and #16 at their best times.