I thought we were getting away from "Borrowed Power"

[huth]

If you hate "borrowed" powers, imagine you have to level your 3 artifact weapons and neck. And optimizing weapon traits, Netherlight, Azurite, essences and corruption in 9.0.

Oh, you think new expac should be just few new spells and gear treadmill as usual? And people wouldn't complain how "hollow" and "empty" expansion feels? Riiiight.

I honestly think that people that hate hard reset and redesign at start of expac didn't really though about it enough.

Let's not forget that the whole reason we have these systems is because Blizzard already tried the other option and found that it didn't work. And they already had plenty of examples of what happens if you don't occassionally reset things and why that is a bad idea.

[Amarys]

Hell no OP, Forums represent a dramatic minority when the subject is "general opinion about something".

What if Blizzard knows that those "borrowed powers" get players coming?

You people are doomed.

I don't think anyone likes it. I have skipped most of BfA so I don't know bad it is now but in Legion I 100% ignored it and didn't feel like it affect my characters. 1-10% more dpz compared to those who farmed it wasn't even noticeable. If it's gonna be like this in Shadowlands, it wouldn't be ideal but at least it wouldn't be the end of the world.

[A Chozo]

I don't think anyone likes it.

You... seriously thinks that unanimously not one single warcraft-playing soul likes it?

If so, you are in a bubble.

[Amarys]

You... seriously thinks that unanimously not one single warcraft-playing soul likes it?

If so, you are in a bubble.

Clearly when someone says "no one likes x", it's just a figure of speech. It just means it's widely unpopular and for a good reason.

Borrowed power has no redeeming qualities as even those who enjoy grinding generally want to keep their hard earned rewards.

[A Chozo]

Clearly when someone says "no one likes x", it's just a figure of speech.

Not when people use it to defend their botched arguments.

Blizzard keeps making borrowed power - it's the third time. Clearly people love it, it's their solution to the ability bloat that plagued the game for a while.

If you buy a modern WoW expansion for the third time and get mad at it, that's on you.

[Doffen]

The Covenant system was always going to be what people have taken to calling "rental powers," and that's not changed in any way. The big difference between Legion/BfA and Shadowlands is that this rental power system will no longer be intrinsically tied to gear. "Loot will be loot" as the motto for Shadowlands goes, with the Covenant system being a more grandiose advancement system a la the "Path of the Titans" proposal from Cata or an expanded take on Draenor Perks.

Couldn't said it better myself. Seriously, I couldn't.

I think it's pretty clear that Covenant was always the borrowed power version of Shadowlands. What I think is nice about it is that it's pretty much streamlined more like Artifact Weapon than anything we got in BfA. The issue is that they have to keep it up and relevant throughout most of the expansion.

[Amarys]

Not when people use it to defend their botched arguments.

Blizzard keeps making borrowed power - it's the third time. Clearly people love it, it's their solution to the ability bloat that plagued the game for a while.

If you buy a modern WoW expansion for the third time and get mad at it, that's on you.

Nah, Legion was just good in general and no one expected the Spanish inqui..*ahem* borrowed power. Players grew to hate it by the end though. BfA doubled down on it so it became almost universally hated. As is BFA in general. If they bring it back in Shadowlands, thats on Blizzard.

Also I only bought one WoW expansion - WoD. the rest I got for tokens so they're technically free. Might as well.

[DemonDays]

I thought I had seen that was going to be a focus, moving away from borrowed power. Looking at the screenshots posted today it looks like at least 2 different systems of borrowed power happening between covenants and anima.

They'll never move away from Rental Power. That means they would have to put effort into designing fun and fulfilling base classes.

This way they can also put player power and class fixes as a carrot on a stick, locked behind a grind.


Also there is at least 5 systems:

Covenant Signature Ability
Covenant Throughput Abilility
Soulbind Talent Tree
Conduit Gems for Soulbinds
Legendaries

Five layers of rental power. Imagine the shit show that balance is going to be LOL

[DemonDays]

Couldn't said it better myself. Seriously, I couldn't.

I think it's pretty clear that Covenant was always the borrowed power version of Shadowlands. What I think is nice about it is that it's pretty much streamlined more like Artifact Weapon than anything we got in BfA. The issue is that they have to keep it up and relevant throughout most of the expansion.

The issue is that it is impossible to balance.

Player choice is all well and good in a singleplayer RPG but when a lot of people like competing with their friends it doesn't really work.

In an ideal world where these things were within 1-5% of each other it would be okay. But Blizzard has NEVER EVER gotten it that close. They have a zero percent success rate on these types of systems.

Zero percent.



I'll provide two examples for people who don't seem to be able to grasp the issue.

PVE:

Say Boss 1 in the new raid is designed with a specific DPS requirement. What happens when these Covenants are wildly imbalanced and only 3/15 of the people in the raid picked the most optimized covenant? Whereas 12/15 just chose "what looked cool".

How do you tune that boss around both a raid group with FULL optimization and one that has barely any? Does the optimized group just steamroll the entire raid on day one? With zero challenge? Or does the group that just "chose what they wanted" like Ion says struggle to even kill the first Boss?

PVP:

DKs have an ability called Abomination Limb from Necrolords. It constantly Death Grips a player towards you over and over for 10 seconds. Are all DKs going to be tuned around having this ability in PvP? Because it is very clearly the "pvp choice" as it has little merit or use in PvE encounters.

If so? Does Blizzard tune DKs damage down because of this ability? What about the other 75%(random number) players who didn't pick Necrolords? Are they fucked in PvP?



The best example of this happening was in Legion. Emerald Nightmare is considered a joke raid to most because those raid groups that got multiple people who were lucky with their Legendary drops and got the best ones first just STEAMROLLED the entire raid because Blizzard had to tune it for people who got the WORST legendaries. Because once again - Blizzard is fucking AWFUL at balancing.


It's a god damn balancing nightmare. Zero percent success rate.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's not forget that the whole reason we have these systems is because Blizzard already tried the other option and found that it didn't work. And they already had plenty of examples of what happens if you don't occassionally reset things and why that is a bad idea.

Would you say that the design they used in BfA "worked". I mean - you would try and argue that with a straight face? Considering that Ion himself has admitted it didn't.

They stripped far too many rental systems away and the new rental system failed to fill any gaps leftover.

- - - Updated - - -

If you hate "borrowed" powers, imagine you have to level your 3 artifact weapons and neck. And optimizing weapon traits, Netherlight, Azurite, essences and corruption in 9.0.

Oh, you think new expac should be just few new spells and gear treadmill as usual? And people wouldn't complain how "hollow" and "empty" expansion feels? Riiiight.

I honestly think that people that hate hard reset and redesign at start of expac didn't really though about it enough.

It's almost like having no rental systems worked for 10+ years of the game.

When the game was at its highest subscription numbers ever.

Legion babies are so cute.

[Thage]

I thought I had seen that was going to be a focus, moving away from borrowed power. Looking at the screenshots posted today it looks like at least 2 different systems of borrowed power happening between covenants and anima.

I think it was less 'getting away from borrowed power' and more 'getting away from infinite grinds.' And from all accounts, it doesn't feel like you'll be endlessly grinding anima the way we did Artifact Power and Azerite. One thing they should look into getting away from, side note, is the alternate-advancement systems all being abbreviated AP because it makes it annoying to abbreviate fluidly without having to clarify anyway.

Also, the borrowed powers this time around at least look pretty reasonable. Granted, we'll see what fuckery beta unleashes upon us, but for now it looks like there is significantly less fuckery afoot from Anima as opposed to Azerite.

[Mardux]

I thought I had seen that was going to be a focus, moving away from borrowed power. Looking at the screenshots posted today it looks like at least 2 different systems of borrowed power happening between covenants and anima.

Why would we get away from borrowed power? That was Legion's biggest thing and people love Legion.

[huth]

Would you say that the design they used in BfA "worked". I mean - you would try and argue that with a straight face? Considering that Ion himself has admitted it didn't.

They stripped far too many rental systems away and the new rental system failed to fill any gaps leftover.

You're talking about a different type of issue. The system worked in regard to the problem i was referring to, yes. Whether the system was in and of itself a good design is a different question.

But the fact remains that without the so-called rental power, their only feasible long-term option is to not give us new powers at all.

[DemonDays]

You're talking about a different type of issue. The system worked in regard to the problem i was referring to, yes. Whether the system was in and of itself a good design is a different question.

But the fact remains that without the so-called rental power, their only feasible long-term option is to not give us new powers at all.

No.

As I stated in a previous reply. There is a completely feasible way of doing things.

Rental Powers by themselves aren't a bad idea. If the BASE CLASS itself is a fully functioning, complete unit.

I shouldn't be fixing design flaws in my class via 3-5 rental systems. Only for them to be stripped away at the expansions end and to be left with a desolate husk.

[huth]

No.

As I stated in a previous reply. There is a completely feasible way of doing things.

Rental Powers by themselves aren't a bad idea. If the BASE CLASS itself is a fully functioning, complete unit.

I shouldn't be fixing design flaws in my class via 3-5 rental systems. Only for them to be stripped away at the expansions end and to be left with a desolate husk.

Which has exactly nothing to do with the reason we get rental powers. You keep confusing "why" with "how".

[Tronski]

you basically have 3 choices for how loot and class systems work in an MMO:
1. every power increase stays forever and are inherent to the class, and all future development is then limited by what came before it.

2. you have "borrowed power" that exists for the life of an expansion but doesn't become inherent to the class.

3. you don't have any significant power deviations, instead sticking with a baseline kit that doesn't really change.

i've played an MMO operating off #1, which is everquest, and the problem there is you end up hampering certain classes for literally years because of a single item or ability that was overpowered and never got changed.
i think that the WoW community wouldn't handle #3 well because it would lead to nothing really changing and people complaining about how boring and samey the game is after so many years.

IMO a baseline toolkit that defined the class that doesn't get tweaked too much in combination with expansion-long themed power systems are actually a pretty good balance.
it keeps things interesting and changing, and lets the dev team introduce experimental shit that could be stupendously overpowered without then having to either 'take away' new toys, or be limited in the future in class development because of an overpowered ability.

When you say "stupendously overpowered" you mean balanced within the system. It took Blizz 3 days to nerf falling stars paladins. Fun was detected.

[huth]

When you say "stupendously overpowered" you mean balanced within the system. It took Blizz 3 days to nerf falling stars paladins. Fun was detected.

Wouldn't call some invincible orange bouncyball oneshotting you "fun".

[Syegfryed]

you though we were, but we aren't

[Alkizon]

DemonDays
No.

As I stated in a previous reply. There is a completely feasible way of doing things.

Rental Powers by themselves aren't a bad idea. If the BASE CLASS itself is a fully functioning, complete unit.

I shouldn't be fixing design flaws in my class via 3-5 rental systems. Only for them to be stripped away at the expansions end and to be left with a desolate husk.

Mostly agree with your previous posts, BUT! what you're saying imposes certain limitation on design/amount of “Borrowed powers”(otherwise, they'll always be brought to point of absurdity, like now, and cause multiple, both small and fatal, errors/problems) and turns them into... what? - usual universal characteristics that were before, right? So, all their cerebration smoothly and accurately, in such conditions, will return to basic "role customization" without any influence on class fantasy (and even more so without giving any "additional" abilities, which is for granted), but then it will cease to be such (= “outrageous” for players, easy and cheap (don't forget about inflation, which they themselves organized before by virtue of total incompetence) in manipulation for devs (joke pictures stolen from here), who can only think “within limits of this expansion”, but not “within the whole design”) factor that they want it (its current state) to be

Do you see/understand this?

But, unfortunately, this is what all new expansion is dancing around, even dungeons' design.

You can't make choice at all, since system will depend not on your choice, but on devs' subsequent actions (previously, only one system's part has such influence and this was Class's one). So now, how, after all that has been said, can “it” be called “controlled/fair choice”? It doesn't exist, since it will have every chance of being depreciated in next iteration, and generally abandoned and forgotten after expansion, how can it be "meaningful" in such conditions? It just don't. And all because it's inserted in wrong place, or... they are lying (which is much more likely) and its purpose is completely different (not provide you with meaningful choices)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If skip their initial nonsense about "motivation by choice", "RPG" and other generated (by brainstorm of marketing department) phrases this (= covenants as example) is duplicate system that tries to act as class's one (choice of which is made when creating character once and for all), while not only it's not the one (it's temporary/not attached to just character and yet with possibility of changing, albeit difficult: class can't be changed; current system of specs makes same mistake, only in this case 3rd level tries to replace by itself 2nd one, and in case of covenants 4th behaves this way, the lowest of them all), but it also causes conflicts in system’s processing (violation of priorities, which is true not only in relation to system's choice itself, but also to its "repair") of different levels in hierarchy: it either has to be “this level” (= be inside class interface, obey only its rules) or is “higher/lower” (= not have significance of this level), but not duplicate (= have same significance, but be something different; same true for any its level), especially since it’s temporary.
- What is first thing to repair/change/develop in case of conflict, class part or "next crippled system", which unexpectedly is also kind of same?
- How should system behave in case of their mutually exclusive orders?
- Which one will obey other, which one shouldn't be preferred, part of which of them can be sacrificed in case of incompatibility?
This pass is slippery and wrong on all sides.

We already discussed this thing here (careful with topic, a lot of banhammer's frags ):
<1><2><3><4><5><6><7><8>
Also thread from US-forum.

ps. People criticized on forums that kind of systems at least already since Legion announcement, "But anyway the cart's still there today."

Palapop
Gear progression IS NOT THE SAME as concept of borrowed power!

Harbour
Blizzard want the Class Focus (c) but their Covenant philosophy and design contradict it.
- - -
you get level cap, you have your class/specs with all cool stuff baked in them so you can fully enjoy it

Nerovar
There's an obvious difference between gear and borrowed power. Gear enhances the numbers of your class abilities but very rarely changes the way you play. Borrowed power "competes" with your class kit and (because it's usually mostly passive) reduces the importance of player input proportionally while creating another thing for Blizzard to balance.

StillMcfuu
I disagree that gear is "borrowed power". Gear gets replaced, not to mention as you level your secondary scaling changes, which is why some expansions feel like there is a dip at max level vs the level before in the same gear.
Gear is fundamentally "earned power". It is earned and replaced. Borrowed power is simply given, you get it for existing in the game. Gear is replaced by something better or at the players whim ... Borrowed power abilities are replaced out of player control.

Gear (as carriers of characteristics) isn't "that" borrowed powers, just lowest level of customization and urging/benefiting part of progress through content. And most importantly, they'll never become obsolete as long as they have at least 1 relevant characteristic or stat, and exists at least 1 character of appropriate level (I don't accept items' scalability within design of this game).
- - - snip - - -
sets were not bad, just supplemented existing system, emphasized/pushed to desired direction of development, while their substitutes push not to obtain content, but to farm existing&received one and this is bi-i-i-ig difference.

Nightsinger
Artifacts and Azerite = Borrowed Power

Gems, Enchants, Slots, Upgrades, stuffthat can be made by other players = Player Power.

The players build their own power. Crafters raided for rare recipes to bring more power to the masses in exchange for more money…Guilds used to unite around a crafter and work hard to bring down that really tough boss hoping that their crafter could make them all stronger, instead of Esports sponsorship…

Thanks, OP. I couldnt quite put my finger on how all these changes took away from the game, but now that I understand how these changes altered player motivations, it became clear.

Why group with friends and allies if you are handed individual borrowed power each expack, andn one of it matters?