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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    Every player of class spec combo had the same fixed template of stats in a PvP instance, no matter the stats on your gear, you couldn't use trinkets and the stats got increased by a percentage up to a baseline of itemlevel that was very easily achievable without raiding, I think it was 800. Then you got a very marginal increase for every extra itemlevel after that up to 900. So if I remember correctly Legion was the expansion where PvP gear mattered the least of any expansion.
    As much as I dislike Kagthul, he's proven time and time again that the system didn't actually provide the effect it was supposed to. Getting BiS gear and staying on top of all the systems mattered a whole bunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    I remember liking PvP very much, and spending a lot of time playing casual PvP.
    How? With the amount of stupid Legiondaries and the lack of wPvP balancing? Or are you only talking about random BGs? For most PvPers Legion wPvP was the worst time ever (not that I care about wPvP).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    I figured I'll just use that time to have a blast doing random battlegrounds. But I found it to not be fun anymore, something changed. Again, forgive my ignorance, but I assume they did away with the system they had in Legion and made gear matter again, so I simply didn't have the gear to compete anymore, so it was no fun so I ended up not playing much at all.
    This is pretty much the experience of all PvPers in BfA and for competitve PvPers in Legion too. PvE or die, and it will, based on the information we have available now, continue in SL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    So I very much like the approach that gear does not matter in PvP. What's the fun in fighting players with better gear than you?
    To me, personally, it's not fun to fight players with better/worse gear. But this is an MMORPG, and that means that gearing is an integral part of the game. To many people "pwning noobs" is what they want out of PvP, and Legion completely killed that. Legion almost killed PvP participation.

    A much better solution was the MoP or WoD systems where you'd be able to gather a full casual PvP set (Honor gear) in ~3-4 hours, and a BiS PvP set in a weekend (Conquest gear), and that gear was the best gear for PvP. This meant that you weren't forced to do PvE to be viable, and people who liked the "pwn newbs" kind of PvP got what they want, and also no one got slain in a "pwn newbs" fashion for more than a few hours or so at most.

    Win-win-win, unlike the Legion system where PvE is the way to go (with 0 stat allocation control), no way for people to truly feel like they're getting "powerful" (i.e. the "pwn noobs" kind of players), and where newly dinged characters still got absolutely smashed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    If you have to spend lots of time playing only to get to the top of the gear chain, you'll already be bored with playing by the time you're on par with other players.
    This is, again, why gear acquistion rate should be very rapid in PvP, to ensure everyone ends up on an even playing field very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    And then you end up getting the reversed problem of being OP simply because of your gear, which is no fun as the best matches are those that are even and you have a shot to win and you need to work for it and whether you'll end up winning or losing it would have been exciting.
    Some people like that. I don't, but many do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    Gear as a testament of your progression is the way to go for PvE, but for PvP the testament of your progression should be your PvP rank on a PvP ladder, not gear.
    I don't think you'll get many PvPers telling you that they care a lot for gear, other than the fact that they crave that they don't have to do PvE to get maximum performance (at their rating range, or even BiS), and some more casual PvPers wanting to be able to "pwn noobs".

    would only be 4-5% in stats behind mythic raid geared person
    ...
    It has never, I repeat, NEVER been as equal in terms of power
    You mean, as opposed to them both just getting Conquest gear and being on the exact same power level? Why should Mythic raiders get an advantage of 4-5% against PvPers (which btw is huge, each stat % is much more than 1% output)?

    Get a grip.
    Last edited by RelaZ; 2020-07-25 at 04:00 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    It has never, I repeat, NEVER been as equal in terms of power.
    I'll admit: I thought blizzard was making up shit when they said people didn't find the PvP vendor, but I guess this stupid people actually exist. Imrpessive, I'm lost for words.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    You mean, as opposed to them both just getting Conquest gear and being on the exact same power level? Why should Mythic raiders get an advantage of 4-5% against PvPers (which btw is huge, each stat % is much more than 1% output)?

    Get a grip.
    First of all, mythic raiders didn't get such an advantage thanks to it being itemlevel based, and there having been other ways to get high itemlevel gear in the game. Ever heard of titanforging? Yeah, my casual priest had 955 without ever setting foot inside heroic, let alone mythic antorus. Some mythic raider having 960+ itemlevel was of no concern to me. Their 1% stat increase would not help them much at all. Not enough to turn a tide if they weren't going to use their skills. That's what you, and quite a few are after. Outgear anothers skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    I'll admit: I thought blizzard was making up shit when they said people didn't find the PvP vendor, but I guess this stupid people actually exist. Imrpessive, I'm lost for words.
    It's the mother of all ironies that you talk of making shit up. That's all you seem to do inbetween lying and flinging insults, thinking that makes your arguments have some merit. It doesn't, but don't let me stop you.
    Last edited by Azadina; 2020-07-25 at 06:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    First of all, mythic raiders didn't get such an advantage thanks to it being itemlevel based, and there having been other ways to get high itemlevel gear in the game.

    Ever heard of titanforging? Yeah, my casual priest had 955 without ever setting foot inside heroic, let alone mythic antorus. Some mythic raider having 960+ itemlevel was of no concern to me. Their 1% stat increase would not help them much at all.
    Yeah, a 1% stat increase would not help at all. Clearly.

    A 1% stat increase is many percentages in terms of an output difference. Maybe that doesn't make a difference where you're playing, but for people actually trying to improve their rating, every small advantage can and will make (or break) it.

    Good try using titanforging as a way to justify the horrible system though, laughable at best. More RNG and power inequality. Good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Not enough to turn a tide if they weren't going to use their skills. That's what you, and quite a few are after. Outgear anothers skill.
    You just don't get it do you? We're not after outgearing people. We're after a balanced system with equal power to all, where PvErs don't rule the world. I.e. the opposite of what the Legion system did, where PvErs outgeared PvPers and all competitive PvPers forced into PvE.

    I'm done discussing with you. You don't seem to be reading very well.
    Last edited by RelaZ; 2020-09-02 at 04:49 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    It's the mother of all ironies that you talk of making shit up. That's all you seem to do inbetween lying and flinging insults, thinking that makes your arguments have some merit. It doesn't, but don't let me stop you.
    Yes I'm insulting you, because I don't understand how anyone would think that """5%""" advantage is more equal than no advantage. I don't have to lie - I just tell how things are from arena players PoV.

    The only reason that you didn't have equal gear in WoD has to be that you didn't find the PvP vendors or else you would have had the same gear as everyone else.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    Ever heard of titanforging? Yeah, my casual priest had 955 without ever setting foot inside heroic, let alone mythic antorus. Some mythic raider having 960+ itemlevel was of no concern to me. Their 1% stat increase would not help them much at all.
    Yeah, a 1% stat increase would not help at all. Clearly.

    a 1% stat increase is many percentages in terms of an output difference. Maybe that doesn't make a difference where you're playing, but for people actually trying to improve their rating, every small advantage can and will make (or break) it.

    Good try using titanforging as a way to justify the horrible system though, laughable at best. More RNG and power inequality. Good idea.



    You just don't get it do you? We're not after outgearing people. We're after a balanced system with equal power to all, where PvErs don't rule the world. I.e. the opposite of what the Legion system did, where PvErs outgeared PvPers and all competitive PvPers forced into PvP.

    I'm done discussing with you. You don't seem to be reading very well.
    That last bolded part is the only sensible thing you've said so far. At least you too realize discussion is beyond pointless when all you do is argue in bad faith...and lie constantly, as about to be pointed out yet again; the first bolded part. Yeah, what about it? If that wasn't completely bald faced lie yet again, you'd advocate for legion templates with NO wiggle room in stats, none. But do you? No, you don't. Equal power to all isn't at all what you actually want. Why on gods earth even bother with the pretense, rather than admitting you want to own blue pvp geared noobs with full epics (yea, you know, A LOT more of a power difference than 5% between extremes. Try 30).

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Yes I'm insulting you, because I don't understand how anyone would think that """5%""" advantage is more equal than no advantage. I don't have to lie - I just tell how things are from arena players PoV.

    The only reason that you didn't have equal gear in WoD has to be that you didn't find the PvP vendors or else you would have had the same gear as everyone else.
    You don't have to, but you do anyway. It's hilarious how you figure one can go to WoD pvp vendor and be instantly decked like top pvp players, but somehow you adamantly object having to anything whatsoever during legion to have the same itemlevel as others. I wonder why that would be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    but somehow you adamantly object having to anything whatsoever during legion to have the same itemlevel as others. I wonder why that would be.
    Where was the legion PvP vendors? I didn't find them

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Where was the legion PvP vendors? I didn't find them
    I'm sure you didn't. You see, in legion one had to hit the log in button to have equal gear with others, if in WoD you got them by visiting pvp vendor once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    I'm sure you didn't. You see, in legion one had to hit the log in button to have equal gear with others.
    Didn't you say ilvl increased your stats in legion? So which one is it?

  10. #50
    IMO, pvp and pve gear should give stats equivalent to the raid cleared/rating attained.

    Then you can use this gear in pvp or pve, no matter if you only did pvp or pve... So at the highest pvp rank or highest raid difficulty, you get gladiator which would equal Mythic gear.

    You get one set of items no need to switch...pvp with pve are unified. I like. If secondary stats are different, a reforge or whatever could change that.

    So yes to pvp vendors with real pvp gear, not cosmetic only.

    WoW need supported pvp badly, because it's a generalist game, it is meant to be played on different levels (more than just on a heroic/mythic pve level).

  11. #51
    I really don’t see a problem with PvP gear being used in PvP and PvE gear being used in PvE and not going with PvP gear into PvE and vice versa.

    The only argument I saw against that is “but what about world pvp?”. Who the fuck cares about balance in world PvP?

    Legion eliminated gear progression which made it boring. It’s important to have a progression system in an RPG, even in PvP. The question should be where the better items come from and how long it should take to get them.

    I liked the progression system from back in the days way more than what we have now. Random BGs for honor gear and a few arena wins per week for conquest gear. If you had no gear, you were farmed. If you had gear, you farmed the noobs who had no gear and were on an even ground against others with gear. The same it is now and I think it’s a good system in general. It’s important to have the power difference between new and old player. That’s motivating for new players to get that good gear and be just as strong as that guy who killed you. It sure was motivating for me 10 years ago to keep grinding those BGs.
    The big difference to now is that it didn’t take long to get your starter gear. It was actually very fast. I had 3 PvP alts that I was playing in MoP-WoD. Unthinkable nowadays.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I really don’t see a problem with PvP gear being used in PvP and PvE gear being used in PvE and not going with PvP gear into PvE and vice versa.
    I think it's better if your gear is "works" in every sort of content and not magically becomes better or worse because you fight another player.

    It however has become increasingly difficult to execute because of the many changes made to the game over the years, i believe it's a noble goal, one that will not work out however without serious drawbacks for one side (Be it PvP or PvE).

    Back in the day, one path (or game mode) was not the "sole" way to gearing your character, you had to engage in multiple activities to improve / complete your character.

    Looking at Classic, gearing yourself solely via raids was not an option (at least for some characters), you also needed Profession based items, some PvP Ranks or whatever, simply because a single source or game mode didn't give you a good item for every slot.

    Another example would be in TBC, sure, a lot of people chose to the easy way to gear their characters later on by AFK'ing in Battlegrounds to grab easy S1 / S2 items, but those didn't fill out your entire character (Trinkets / rings).
    These PvP items also lacked certain crucial stats for PvE, such as Hit or mana regen for healers (not to mention defensive stats for Tanks).

    The gear was still good for PvE, but not to the point where wearing full Glad made you equivalent to a PvE raider of the same gear, in fact, most people saw wearing the full honor / gladiator set in PvE as a sign for you being a terrible player, because you lacked these stats.

    Nowadays, gearing has become very streamlined, hit or mana regen no longer exists, this causes serious problems with Blizzards concept of PvE = PvP.
    Especially the addition of multiple difficulties makes it even more difficult.

    If Battlegrounds would award ~Heroic Ilvl, Battlegrounds woul be full of AFK Leechers while no one bothers doing M+ below +15 or heroic raids, because you'd just AFK leech your way to gear.

    If Battlegrounds would ~normal Ilvl, they would be far too bad, you could just farm M+ and get similiar rewards...and for what would you want to do PvP if you already geared yourself completely via an alternate path?

    It is a serious problem in this game right now due to the multiple layers of difficulty, multiple game modes without any barriers: How do we reward each type of content or Game mode?

    Like, look at PvP right now, in order to get a Mythic Ilvl out of your weekly box, you need 2,1k Rating(!), compare that to your weekly +15, the amount of skill required between these two is utterly laughable.

    In my opinion, it is better for the game if PvP Gear would be equivalent to PvE Gear, but not in the current game, because it creates this massive problem that one mode suddenly becomes much more attractive to the target audience of the other mode if it's the easier to path yourself and thus invalidate their favored mode.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think it's better if your gear is "works" in every sort of content and not magically becomes better or worse because you fight another player.

    It however has become increasingly difficult to execute because of the many changes made to the game over the years, i believe it's a noble goal, one that will not work out however without serious drawbacks for one side (Be it PvP or PvE).

    Back in the day, one path (or game mode) was not the "sole" way to gearing your character, you had to engage in multiple activities to improve / complete your character.

    Looking at Classic, gearing yourself solely via raids was not an option (at least for some characters), you also needed Profession based items, some PvP Ranks or whatever, simply because a single source or game mode didn't give you a good item for every slot.

    Another example would be in TBC, sure, a lot of people chose to the easy way to gear their characters later on by AFK'ing in Battlegrounds to grab easy S1 / S2 items, but those didn't fill out your entire character (Trinkets / rings).
    These PvP items also lacked certain crucial stats for PvE, such as Hit or mana regen for healers (not to mention defensive stats for Tanks).

    The gear was still good for PvE, but not to the point where wearing full Glad made you equivalent to a PvE raider of the same gear, in fact, most people saw wearing the full honor / gladiator set in PvE as a sign for you being a terrible player, because you lacked these stats.

    Nowadays, gearing has become very streamlined, hit or mana regen no longer exists, this causes serious problems with Blizzards concept of PvE = PvP.
    Especially the addition of multiple difficulties makes it even more difficult.

    If Battlegrounds would award ~Heroic Ilvl, Battlegrounds woul be full of AFK Leechers while no one bothers doing M+ below +15 or heroic raids, because you'd just AFK leech your way to gear.

    If Battlegrounds would ~normal Ilvl, they would be far too bad, you could just farm M+ and get similiar rewards...and for what would you want to do PvP if you already geared yourself completely via an alternate path?

    It is a serious problem in this game right now due to the multiple layers of difficulty, multiple game modes without any barriers: How do we reward each type of content or Game mode?

    Like, look at PvP right now, in order to get a Mythic Ilvl out of your weekly box, you need 2,1k Rating(!), compare that to your weekly +15, the amount of skill required between these two is utterly laughable.

    In my opinion, it is better for the game if PvP Gear would be equivalent to PvE Gear, but not in the current game, because it creates this massive problem that one mode suddenly becomes much more attractive to the target audience of the other mode if it's the easier to path yourself and thus invalidate their favored mode.
    The easy solution is “don’t force PvP to be equal to PvE”. Ain’t nothing wrong with needing a separate set for PvE and PvP. All the problems PvP has right now is because Blizzard has this idea that good gear should be good everywhere. Guess what, itemization isn’t really interesting when items are good no matter what you do.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    Guess what, itemization isn’t really interesting when items are good no matter what you do.
    I mean...yes?
    Isn't that what i said, considering you didn't need as much hit for PvP than for PvE?
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-08-01 at 04:49 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Didn't you say ilvl increased your stats in legion? So which one is it?
    Yikes dude. Azadina destroyed you here, you might want to let this one go..

    Have any gear that isn't from pvp disabled when you enter instanced pvp. Easy pvp fix.
    Hi

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    The whole point of this game is to obtain the best pieces of gear possible and kill people, it's not rocket science.

    Seems like it is for Blizzard since they removed PvP gear from the game.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they said they will do like wod, maybe its the gear scaling back?
    I am not sure why people are still arguing about this when the second post had the perfect solution to this issue. Disable pve trinkets in pvp as well if it's such an issue and you are good to go: pvp gear is the best for pvp, 3 tiers of gear (crafted green, honor blues, conquest purples) that offer good progression that with a bit of dedication can be done easily via random BGs and daily pvp rewards (easier if you do arena obviously), no rating required for any gear so even casuals have something to look forward to and thus increases participation, you can adjust your stats to your liking via different pieces etc etc.

    There is literally nothing against the WoD pvp-gearing system, which is a million times better than the templates of Legion for which some people seem to have such a hard-on.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Yikes dude. Azadina destroyed you here, you might want to let this one go..

    Have any gear that isn't from pvp disabled when you enter instanced pvp. Easy pvp fix.
    What the hell does destroying even mean in this context - making illogical posts? What's the point of making these kind of unintelligent comments. How is that "Easy pvp fix" when there is obvious downsides to that. Like why do you jump in a discussion without understanding what has been talked about?

    edit: if you think something is "easy fix", there is very high probability that you don't understand the issue at all. So you should probably try to understand it first before making stupid posts.
    Last edited by dzd; 2020-08-15 at 01:48 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    What the hell does destroying even mean in this context - making illogical posts? What's the point of making these kind of unintelligent comments. How is that "Easy pvp fix" when there is obvious downsides to that. Like why do you jump in a discussion without understanding what has been talked about?

    edit: if you think something is "easy fix", there is very high probability that you don't understand the issue at all. So you should probably try to understand it first before making stupid posts.
    Oof, you better let this one go mate.
    Hi

  20. #60
    One extremely important thing to realize right now that despite PvP vendors being in the game, we don't know how easy the currency to buy the pieces will be, nor where it all comes from exactly.

    Furthermore, if you take a look at the blue-quality gear on the PvP vendor, I can actually craft better/higher ilvl blues than whats available there. This sort of indicates what has happened in the past to some degree in previous expansions when PvP vendors were a thing: PvE people might work towards weapons in PvP (currently there's are some weapons which you can buy for gold on the vendor, may just be for testing), then not worry about using that system anymore (unless RNG is RNG, and you need to fill in a slot). Even then, if you chain-run normal lvl 60 dungeons, you can probably get a weapon in short order if you want to avoid PvP. If the ilvl is low enough, most PvE people won't care and the gear will likely be readily accessible. As long as there's a path to higher ilvl gear that requires more PvP investment, that's where the actual balance should be.

    When it comes to the epic PvP gear at 195 ilvl, there's currently no currency listing for it implemented yet. There's a LUA error that indicates there is a currency required, and probably a rating, but we don't know the values of the cost of items yet or if it will remain conquest points. The 195 ilvl epic weapons will be gated behind a 5k conquest points in season 1 FoS achievement, but again that is subject to change. If we take the weekly vault as an example, where 875 conquest points gives you three options to choose from, getting that currency likely won't be a short venture. Maybe there will even be a weekly cap on the currency, who knows. There's just way too many unknown variables to have a concrete opinion on how the system will probably work out with any sort of certainty.

    I will say that there's an odd 'gap' between the blue and epic PvP gear right now, and I think historically that's where a 'middle set' of pvp gear would go. Blue gear is 155, epic gear is 195... so there's room to put in maybe a 170 set potentially. I can understand that they might not want to do that, as that could add a third currency, or be a "trap" to spend your conquest on if it's rare to come by. Suppose you could just jack up the honor prices so that you have to invest a lot of time in PvP to get the gear. Or you can make the 195 ilvl gear all have a 2.4k rating threshold or something, so dedicated PvPers know they can save their conquest for getting that. It's mostly an issue that springs up because of the number of difficulties there are in raids right now, which I think is a legitimate issue overall.

    Anyways, if you're concern is about raiders and PvE-centric people having more gear than you in PvP, that's just how the gear structure works right now and actually may not be a problem in the long run. Keep in mind, there's no longer WF/TF or spam-running M+ for near-mythic raid level gear anymore. That'll have a huge impact in gear disparity between PvP and PvE on the vast majority of the player base. This means that if you're dedicated to PvP, you will probably outgear any 'casual' PvPer unless they happen to be a mythic raider. The same should happen in the opposite direction: if you're dedicated to PvE, you'll probably outgear any 'casual' PvEer unless they're a high rated PvPer. The overlap between high-end PvP and PvE players is not that great (there's obviously some), and I'd surmise a decent chunk of that overlap is just to fill out gear sets (I'm guilty of this in the past).
    Last edited by exochaft; 2020-08-15 at 04:33 PM.
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