Unfortunately for Forsaken, Lilian Voss is much worse than Calia.

[Shampro]

A piece of shit taken after morning coffee is better than Calia, so I don't agree, even though I don't like this current Lillian.

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are they even the "forsaken" anymore? they are getting accepted by the other races now.

Who fucking knows what they are, the race is pretty much irreparable now since their very culture was centered thier leader and she isn't there now.

They're probably going to be...who the hell knows what.

[Skytotem]

are they even the "forsaken" anymore? they are getting accepted by the other races now.

Tbh I think "The Graven" is a better name, though I'd prefer they keep closer to their existing aesthetic than to Calia's Argent look, but get more creative with the Alchemy (More stuff beyond the generic melty-plague) and divide up based on groups.


I think it was a big mistake of Blizz to homogenize the factions and races as much as they have.

Things were cooler when the various nations had different specialties and the orc clans had unique traits, etc...

[oplawlz]

Even after she said The Forsaken are nothing?

You can still have a hot Blood Elf chick on the Horde, they just need to give Valeera a role. Horde doesn't need Sylvanas for the eye candy anymore.

I liked her specifically for her actions, could care less about her character model. I didn't choose horde to play nice with gnomes.

[Skytotem]

I liked her specifically for her actions, could care less about her character model. I didn't choose horde to play nice with gnomes.

Eh, her actions are stupidly-evil though

There's war and then there's senselessly self destructive aggression

[qwerty123456]

Calia doesen't belong with the forsaken. Only alliance fans relling In schadenfreude think otherwise.

While I don't like the idea of lightforged undead or Calia being one she is basically a clone of Sylvanas. Both are big titty special undead with boy toys and they don't really fit in with real forsaken.

[Powerogue]

This whole silly pissing contest about Calia and Voss, and there staring us right in the face. Dumass.

"What the forsaken need is a helping hand! Vote Dumass for Forsaken Racial Leader 2020!"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dumass

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What is it with people thinking others only like Calia as an evil plot against them? The tinfoil hats are really in nowadays. Jesus christ.
I am a player who is passionate about both factions, I play both. I have forsaken characters. I like Calia and wish she would bring a step forward to the stagnated forsaken identity and plot. Not schadenfreude. Not because of what anyone else feels about it. Just because people like different things ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it's more about how Calia hasn't felt the pain of rejection and being treated like a monster that has come to define them. They're not just called "The Zombies." Until she undergoes some character development involving that, I'd rather have an established forsaken character taking charge.

Like my candidate, vote Dumass 2020.

[Vakir]

Dumass for Forsaken Leader.

If they're gonna make them a joke, let's go all the way.

[Syegfryed]

she isn't perfect, she is away from the ideal, like we said many times, but even that, she still ten thousands better than Calia, just by the looks alone

regardless of her licking Calia foot at least she is not her, and the leadership on paper isn't Calia, so we can hope for a proper forsaken leader later.

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Calia doesen't belong with the forsaken. Only alliance fans relling In schadenfreude think otherwise.

this is so true, the same shit with Baine, the good old "i play both factions so is fine for the horde be alliance oriented"

[BrintoSFJ]

I don't like either but I like her more than Calia.
Calia is a light-controlled corpse, she's practically a puppet of the Naaru and no self-respecting Forsaken, player or NPC would ever want for a leader the embodiment of the very thing that by its very nature hurts them.
Besides, the term "FORSAKEN" starts losing its meaning.

As far as I remember, both necromancy and light resurrection magic were used to raise Calia. So we don't know what she is exactly. But the fact that there is a chance she can be controlled by light is a very dire thought. Whether it is light or void, they can not be trusted.

[Super Dickmann]

While I respect Dumass voters, I can't endorse him as leader. He has shown a tendency for reckless action and we've never seen him tie down a job. The Horde economy is in the pits according to Lor'themar and many Forsaken are unemployed. Only a man with a decade and a half of small time business experience like Jeremiah Payson can truly lead the Forsaken. His commitment to enterprise is such that not even leaving the Undercity has had him change his successful business model.

[cparle87]

the horde has moved from alliance side kicks to alliance puppets.

Don't you love how there's genocidal lunatics and Alliance puppets with no grey area in between!? /s

[Verdugo]

What is it with people thinking others only like Calia as an evil plot against them? The tinfoil hats are really in nowadays. Jesus christ.
I am a player who is passionate about both factions, I play both. I have forsaken characters. I like Calia and wish she would bring a step forward to the stagnated forsaken identity and plot. Not schadenfreude. Not because of what anyone else feels about it. Just because people like different things ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You play forsaken about as much as Golden, which is not at all.

[Ardenaso]

If we're talking a council of leaders for the Forsaken, I'd suggest the following:

Voss as the nominal head and representative in the greater Horde council.
Calia as spiritual advisor and vizier.
Dark Ranger Velonara as head of the Dark Rangers.
High Executor Anselm as head of the Deathguard.
Commander Belmont as head of the Deathstalkers.
Faranell as head of the Apothecaries.

This would represent all the main factions of Forsaken society in a unified and varied council with different interests, stances, and backgrounds.

I dare think the existence of Belmont and the Apothecaries would be a huge disservice to the Alliance and will give them a reason to keep the peace. I don't think Tyrande will just stop at Sylvanas, after all Belmont and the RAS are immediate aggressors to the Night Elves

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I'd still take Voss over Calia, or even worse - Leonid

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Kind of wish the Desolate Council wasn't wiped out in "Before the Storm" now. I feel like the Forsaken is really the only group that could really use council-like leadership rather than the Horde as a whole.


But it is apparent what must be done.


The Forsaken must raise Lord Othmar Garithos and he must lead the Forsaken.

[Hugnomo]

"What the forsaken need is a helping hand! Vote Dumass for Forsaken Racial Leader 2020!"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dumass

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I think it's more about how Calia hasn't felt the pain of rejection and being treated like a monster that has come to define them. They're not just called "The Zombies." Until she undergoes some character development involving that, I'd rather have an established forsaken character taking charge.

Like my candidate, vote Dumass 2020.

I understand that. That is justifiable to me, I just have a different preference.
Calia's development in the book, her genuine concern for the forsaken, her role in facilitating the reunion, how it symbolically shattered the foundational myth of the forsaken identity - that they'd always be rejected and reviled by their human relatives, that they'd remain "forsaken" - has made her into someone I wish would lead the forsaken to a bold new future.
She didn't have their same experience, that is irrefutable. But while Sylvanas, their savior, viewed them as nothing more than "arrows in her quiver", as meat shields that stood between her and death, Calia was the polar opposite. She anonymously did everything to help her people in achieving their humane desire for reconciliation (which Sylvanas repressed and only allowed as a means to an end), and only revealed herself when the forsaken themselves asked her to. Her royal relevance in the lordaeronian kingdom was noted, and thought to be a uniting beacon for these fleeing forsaken. While Sylvanas sacrificed forsaken lives to keep her from dying, Calia actually ended dying for them. In her first major interaction with them no less. In my book, that more than earns her at least some consideration.
Since then, she has shown the forsaken that her devotion for them has not ended. She has helped Derek deal with his forced transition and mental coercion (which was supposed to be a capital sin in forsaken culture, turning someone into undeath by force and without freedom of choice or thought, yet perpetrated by Sylvanas). She is now helping the, once again forceably raised and coerced, undead kaldorei at the request of Lillian Voss - a prominent forsaken character who has noted her efforts and has a similar goal of helping undead in their transition.
I understand the concerns for the themes and aesthetic of the forsaken being put into question with Calia leading. I personally like the possible new themes that she could bring. But I understand those who feel otherwise.
I also think that Calia won't be the light loving puppet people are making her out to be. My hunch is that, in the way that she was a discipline priest in the legion order hall, she is a balance of light and shadow (which the forsaken of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow supposedly enshrines). She was raised both by a living human and a forsaken priest, I think she's supposed to embody both the shadow necromancy of the forsaken (alonsus faol) as well as the light empowered resurrection (anduin wrynn). And in that way, I don't think they would be transformed into light worshiping angels. I think they'd keep a lot of their themes, but with an added focus on their lordaeronian heritage probably.

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You play forsaken about as much as Golden, which is not at all.

You know nothing about me. You are ridiculous.

[korijenkins]

The Forsaken should never have been a playable race. They have no future and everyone knows it.

[Super Dickmann]

@Hugnomo

I appreciate the honesty in admitting that you support Calia because she destroys the foundation of the Forsaken. But there is no additive property here, Calia is a complete replacement, root and stem. The downside, beside of course that it substitutes a certain product with another to the complete disinterest of its extant audience and is based around a series of hamhanded retcons, is that the experience she and the nu-undead provide is already serviced just as well by humans and especially by worgen. That Calia herself has her total contribution to the Forsaken across fifteen years amount to attending a single meeting, whereupon she spends the following two years hiding out in a Kul Tiran house with her boyfriend while the Forsaken were in a war speaks for itself as does that the only reason she got involved at all were dreams from a holy windchime.

There is absolutely nothing new in having their Lordaeron heritage, this was already a massive element of Cataclysm. What is new is the disqualification of their entire existence as undead of having any relevant meaning and as being entirely forced upon them - their only identity is the one that is identical to that they had as living Lordaeronians. Ditto, there is no shadow element in Faol, nor a Forsaken one - he's a neutral holy priest.

[Hugnomo]

@Hugnomo

I appreciate the honesty in admitting that you support Calia because she destroys the foundation of the Forsaken. But there is no additive property here, Calia is a complete replacement, root and stem. The downside, beside of course that it substitutes a certain product with another to the complete disinterest of its extant audience and is based around a series of hamhanded retcons, is that the experience she and the nu-undead provide is already serviced just as well by humans and especially by worgen.

Well ... I would thank you if not for it being an abusive interpretation of what I said.

- I don't think she destroys the foundation of the forsaken. It's like saying abolition should have never happened because it destroyed the foundation of the US (though unfortunately, some do argue that). The forsaken ethos was born from human prejudice and persecution, which became a dogmatic belief in the forsaken society - the foundational core philosophy I mentioned. The reunion, which had the participation of willing and hopeful forsaken AND humans, was an experience that would begin to shatter those guiding principles (I understand you might not have liked BTS, but it is canon). Societies grow, change, transform, all while retaining their history and being informed by it. Evolving from dogma and past prejudices is an expected and logical theme in the narrative of societies and communities.

- That it completely disinterests its audience is your assumption. We are individuals with a few anecdotal interactions, we have no idea what's the audience preference.

- Story progression =/= retcon.

- Again, you only have assumptions on what her experience might provide (which is fine, I will speak on assumptions pertaining to future content, but I think it's more correct to be transparent that it is an assumption). I personally don't agree with that assumption. I think there is potential for unique themes that are not derivative of the human/worgen ones.

[Aucald]

- I don't think she destroys the foundation of the forsaken. It's like saying abolition should have never happened because it destroyed the foundation of the US (though unfortunately, some do argue that). The forsaken ethos was born from human prejudice and persecution, which became a dogmatic belief in the forsaken society - the foundational core philosophy I mentioned. The reunion, which had the participation of willing and hopeful forsaken AND humans, was an experience that would begin to shatter those guiding principles (I understand you might not have liked BTS, but it is canon). Societies grow, change, transform, all while retaining their history and being informed by it. Evolving from dogma and past prejudices is an expected and logical theme in the narrative of societies and communities.

People focus on the beats in a given story that call out to them, I think - which is why people have this projection of the Forsaken people as a monolith (in this case an evil, maniacal, life-hating one). But that denies that the Forsaken still possess their essential humanity, and that stories like that of Yvette Farthing, Kegan Darkmar, Renee Lauer, Gretchen Dedmar, Parqual Fintallas, and Vellcinda Benton. Those individuals with their desires, regrets, and essential nobility are also part of the Forsaken nation and just as important as any mad Apothecary or vengeful Deathstalker.

[Super Dickmann]

- I don't think she destroys the foundation of the forsaken. It's like saying abolition should have never happened because it destroyed the foundation of the US (though unfortunately, some do argue that). The forsaken ethos was born from human prejudice and persecution, which became a dogmatic belief in the forsaken society - the foundational core philosophy I mentioned. The reunion, which had the participation of willing and hopeful forsaken AND humans, was an experience that would begin to shatter those guiding principles (I understand you might not have liked BTS, but it is canon). Societies grow, change, transform, all while retaining their history and being informed by it. Evolving from dogma and past prejudices is an expected and logical theme in the narrative of societies and communities.

You may not think so, but you would be wrong. The retcon, which is what it is, diminishes both the Forsaken and their opposition. It diminishes the Forsaken in a fairly obvious way - the entire fifteen years of their existence prior to this point are a farce that could easily be resolved within an hour, their condition, the curse of undeath that diminishes positivity, detaches one from core elements of the human experience and turns their faith into something that burns them, is in reality a purely physical and unremarkable ailment. It also diminishes their opposition - their opposition are no longer compelled by a fairly reasonable position on a 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep' style skepticism towards those deprived of core elements of the human experience, like empathy, or from religious issues, nor even their conduct, given that all participants in that conduct have dropped off the face of the earth - they are dummies who can't get over a relatively minor breach quickly.

It further destroys the Forsaken because it turns them entirely into an entirely passive pushovers, victims of their own weakness, stupidity and lack of initiative at that. Where before Sylvanas was riding the tiger with the Forsaken, who at multiple junctures found her insufficiently committed to their goals and opposed her and to whom she had to pander, both culturally in her use of Lordaeron symbolism and the reappraisal of undeath that got them before it did her, they are now sheep, who rather than be part of a transactional relationship are in a wholly abusive one and one they are unable to escape or resist on their own, but are instead dependant on others to save them from it. Self-actualization, a huge deal for the Forsaken in both a positive and negative sense is entirely jettisoned - their goals and acts for the past fifteen years are shown as entirely unnecessary and fake as compared to what they were as living people, which is the only identity of theirs that really matters. Where before people like Darkmar or Judkins could through their own volition decide that they were part of something bad and oppose while others could do greatly heroic things in a struggle with parties that want to destroy them the new Forsaken require an outside party to define them and will waste away in its absence. Hence how the figure who does actually reflect their experiences, grievances and the like and who did something for the Forsaken, albeit being shoehorned into that role, namely Voss, defers completely to Calia, who represents the outside party here to save these oxygen thieves from themselves.

Is that a society that has changed? Yes, but it has changed through retcons and has changed for the worse. That mention of Lordaeron or leaving the Forsaken or the like were banned can be disproven within literally the first two minutes of doing the Forsaken intro quests. The product of that change are wastes of space - people who lack initiative and or any effect on their own identity, who react to the loss of one cult figure by admitting their own helplessness in resolving their problems and instead glomping onto another cult figure.

- That it completely disinterests its audience is your assumption. We are individuals with a few anecdotal interactions, we have no idea what's the audience preference.

Go to any given forum on the game of your choice and when it comes to story, Calia's support comes almost exclusively outside of the Forsaken playerbase or even the Horde one. The better branch of this are those who consider it out of story karma and admit openly it's bad but that they want it to remove an element of the game they don't like. That's a respectable position. The 'how do you do fellow Forsaken fans' branch on the other hand are almost universally kidding others or themselves.