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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Trinkie View Post
    Except the toxic environment is enforced by the players. Feral druids, shadow priests, any locks, elemental shaman, enhancement, survival, marksman

    They had a stigma for the entire expansion, regardless of where you were.
    Unless you're playing with people who are actually playing the game for fun. I'm in such a guild, we'd usually clear a few mythic bosses each tier, and we never really cared what spec people were, within reason.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I agree, but again I don't see how why if Blizzard followed the mindset which is only shared by the upper 5% or so of the community, it would make anything better.

    I agree the system is not perfect for anyone, but to complain about it is almost arguing that such a system is possible in the first place.
    I think it’s a misconception that this mindset is only shared by the top 5%. Player choices from the last 2 expansions clearly indicate that most players choose whatever is best. This has applied to specs, talents, legendaries, azerite powers, essences etc. Almost no one choose anything other than the meta and this mindset of being the best you can see from LFR raiders, normal raiders and heroic raiders. Blizzard try to apply a very idealistic approach of player choice to the game, but unfortunately this will most like fail because of the sad truth: Most players don’t want choice. They simply want whatever is best.

    This is also why we see BM hunter and Havoc DH being by far the two most played specs in the game. These specs just functions extremely well and that is what people want. Plain and simple. Choice is overrated. Sadly.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-07-17 at 08:44 PM.

  3. #183
    even if they balance them numbers wise there will still be a best choice everyone agrees and is only looking for in the pug world. 'oh you chose that covenant? delete char pls'

    i absolutely hated the clarity of power playstyle of shadow during wod and got kicked from so many raids once they saw i had void entropy because the internet said everything but clarity of power is shit even though given the chance i did the same damage at the end of fights just without the burst.

  4. #184
    I am Murloc!
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    If I end up playing SL I will not be choosing the covenant I identify with / like the most because I know already there are better covenants to match my spec and playstyle, and that fucking sucks ass.

  5. #185
    The consequence of the choice is much more drastic for players whose play style emphasizes player power.
    Again, the consequence of choice instead of choice of consequence. Ion will never learn.

  6. #186
    I think one point worth noting about choices in particularly BfA, is that the systems just weren't interesting enough. I know that I just kind of went with whatever procs were best, because I simply did not care about the vast majority of azerite powers. So I think polls derived from the past two expansions have a certain amount of apathy in them here and there, where people just cba about the choices. I'm not certain Covenants are enough to spark interest, but they seem to be trying... I would rather have gone with actual subclasses I think, or maybe even multi-classing in a small sense.

    Oh and, I definitely think it's a good idea that we can rep up with the other covenants over time or something, while still maintaining one as your main one.

  7. #187
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    Oh boys my covenant ability did 4.8% of my total damage and my friend's covenant ability did 5.0%. GG UNSUB STUPID GAME.

    Please stop.
    Yeah, because Blizzard is actually good at balancing shit. I don't doubt we're going to see 10%+ damage differences between covenants, and it is going to vary by class and spec. I expect the variance to be as high as 20-30% for some spec+covenant combinations, easily. If you're doing 30% less damage cause you picked the wrong covenant, it is going to feel really fucking bad. If you're doing #1 in damage cause you picked the best Covenant and then have that Covenant nerfed 3-6 weeks later, that is also going to feel bad.

    The system is setting players up for failure, and Blizzard being Blizzard means we know they aren't going to this shit balanced at launch and are unlikely to narrow it due to player power increasing and the scaling discrepancies becoming more obvious as time goes on. They'll try to fix it, but it is going to be with major nerfs and tiny buffs, because that is how they always try to fix this shit.
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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I think that's the point of all the gameplay oriented systems: by making so many layers, it's harder to find BIS combinations because there's so many combinations to test.

    People are very unlikely to all be running the same talents, covenant, soulbind, conduit AND legendaries per class because the goal is to make it so there ISN'T a BIS.
    Historically in WoW, this never happens. Blizz has a severe problem with being stubborn about certain aspects of their game, dying on a hill that makes the balance within and between systems almost always out of whack.

    If we take Legion as an example where we had artifact weapons, legendaries, and relics, there were certainly metas formed that almost everyone adhered to. I still remember for bears that one relic trait was worth 40-60 ilvls higher than it's actual ilvl, so it was basically the only choice if you cared about the power output of your bear. Your choice for legendaries with all that were given were pretty limited in terms of usefulness, with a handful being clear winners in all scenarios, regardless of class.

    The inherent problem with a layered system is that it's much harder to control balance without screwing up things down the line or across specs/classes, especially when there are choices that are too good or always good given Blizz's history with content design and difficulty. Their hope is likely that power spread across systems helps mitigate power imbalances within each system, but that only works if either the power differences within a system is very minimal from one extreme to another, or that the powers are crazy and/or cannot be quantified.

    A good example of what I mean is Door of Shadows: you cannot exactly quantify how much DPS you will gain from this ability, but given Blizz's history you can safely assume you'll gain a LOT beyond even DPS compared to Summon Steward or Fleshcraft. Now if you take the Night Fae ability Soulshape, that's probably closer in line to Door of Shadows since they're similar abilities yet very different in how they work. Again, given Blizz's design history, Door of Shadows will likely have better results than Soulshape, but both will likely exceed Fleshcraft and Summon Steward by a huge amount. If you do not touch these covenant abilities, that means Blizz would have to make the Soul Conduits and class abilities gained from the Necrolords/Kyrians insanely powerful to compensate. What are the chances of this? Extremely low. This isn't even going into if, for example, Venthyr has good Soul Conduits and a great class ability for what you like to play, while what the Kyrians offer you is mediocre to useless.

    The problem is this: Blizz cannot design/tune encounters assuming you have certain borrowed powers, because they are locking you into a choice that you cannot change. They have said that they want to make all abilities shine at some point, which is code for "we'll try to add a mechanic that makes use of certain Signature Abilities"... but it won't make or break your progression. However, it doesn't solve the problem of some abilities/powers always being useful in all scenarios with some just being niche.

    If you're a mythic raider like myself, it's pretty obvious that Blizz tends to designs encounters that can be easily trivialized or made insanely easier with two types of utility: immunities and movement abilities (especially teleport/gateway movement). Blizz having covenant abilities that are major movement abilities (while the others are very niche) is a glaring issue when it comes to balance.
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  9. #189
    High Overlord Fiacla's Avatar
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    Chad Ion rekt Preach tbh.

    K.O.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Oops, you picked the wrong covenant. Now you're permanently locked out of endgame raiding because your utility/damage skill is sub-par. The only thing that should be a permanent choice in this game is your class.
    So you're okay with your raid spot being determined at the character generation screen? And you're okay with it being based on your gearing choices, I assume? But you're not okay with it being based on some difficult but not impossible to change other choice?

    So, some fairly easy to fix choices are fair game, and a choice only repairable by starting over is fair game, but something in between is not. I think the 'why' of this is worth examining. So, why?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiacla View Post
    Chad Ion rekt Preach tbh.

    K.O.
    Yeah. Sad to see Preach being snarky at the end - we keep asking for more transparence, and once Ion gives in he receives... that.
    I hope he agrees to more interviews in the future but such behaviour from Preach reduces my hope a little bit.

  12. #192
    Ultimately the decision comes down to balance.
    Pfffff... as if they ever did it well. The whole point is to keep it imbalanced, randon and changing to keep you, hamsters, running the wheel. Because the house always win.

  13. #193
    reading the interview notes its all very tiresome,year in year out we get the same speil,were doing this for reasons or trying to do this for another reason its all the same lines from his last interviews,in the end sl will play out exactly the same as last 3 expansions.and after 3 months the changes will come and another 3 months more changes untill the pitchforks and torches are out and the cycle goes on,wow doesnt have to be this mundane and boring,ion just keeps making it this way.nothing against the guy but its become more evident he is the problem.

  14. #194
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    I understand the perspective of both sides but ultimately guess Ion has the better one for most players.

    If you try to design WoW for the upper 1% that would sell their mother for a miniscule amount of player power this game will die, it will become dry and bland as old bread.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    People will always choose the easiest way to do things. It's why most people will use Method or Limit's strat instead of making their own.
    Funny thing is, the strats Method or Limit (or other top 10 guilds) come up with aren't always the easiest for other guilds to execute, and copying them isn't always the best answer for another guild, given that their players will have different strengths and weaknesses to Method's.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by BB8 View Post
    1-2% wow....
    that is awfully low to make a mess about what is the best ability for a game
    Do you really think that only 2 % in an rpg care about being as powerful as possible?

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Do you really think that only 2 % in an rpg care about being as powerful as possible?
    The majority of players care about ease than they do about power. If a build requires you to have the reflexes and eyes of an eagle ninja but does 10% more dmg than the next build most players wont pick it over the easier option. But if there is some easy extra dps or heals most people will pick it because it makes stuff easier. Most players don't actually want to make a game harder for themselves, which is why you have people in a game like warframe who cookie cutter op builds and then complain the game is too easy and yet they could challenge themselves by using different shit.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-07-17 at 09:36 PM.

  18. #198
    I totally understand Preach's perspective on this whole covenant thing, but he was acting childish at the end of that interview.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiacla View Post
    Chad Ion rekt Preach tbh.

    K.O.
    Uhh, in which reality did that happen?

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The majority of players care about ease than they do about power. If a build requires you to have the reflexes and eyes of an eagle ninja but does 10% more dmg than the next build most players wont pick it over the easier option. But if there is some easy extra dps or heals most people will pick it because it makes stuff easier. Most players don't actually want to make a game harder for themselves, which is why you have people in a game like warframe who cookie cutter op builds and then complain the game is too easy and yet they could challenge themselves by using different shit.
    This is true of course.

    But if someone choose a covenant they don't like for a 4% or so power gain, that's their choice to do so. It all comes down to what you value most for some people. I don't really see a problem with that. But many people want to have it all I guess.

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