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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    I disagree that sub and assassination fulfil the same fantasy. Assassination is a drain spec, entirely about placing debuffs. Sub is for the most part a self-buff spec relying on careful timing to execute instant burst attacks. They are as different as affliction warlock and arcane mage.

    However, if you wanted to introduce a ranged rogue spec then outlaw would clearly be the most sensible place to start as you already have pistols as a signature ability. It could also work to differentiate its weird mishmash of random self buffs from subtlety's core playstyle.
    Your mistaking gameplay for fantasy. Affliction warlocks use dark demonic magic, arcane mages use the polar opposite, not only are their gameplay completely different their fantasy is too, thats a terrible comparison!
    And there really isnt much distinction, assassin is barely more drain focused than sub, both have a stacking dot poison, both have rupture, thats a piss poor way of distinguishing them! and for buffing? both have SnD, aaaand thats it. The only difference really is envenom & mutilate vs shadow dance, but those 3 abilities would make just as much sense in the other spec as the base spec, sub is forced into daggers regardless and would love mutilate, assassin lacks interesting cooldowns so they would love shadow dance, and envenom is a perfect talent upgrade option for eviscerate.
    Ninjas and assassins are effectively the same thing, you can distinguish what type of ninja or assassin you are through talents, if you want a more drain focused spec, pick envenom and empowered shiv, if you want a more bursty focused spec, pick the shadow dance talents.

    Outlaw fulfills a more unique fantasy compared to the other two, they are brawlers, privateers, pirates, scoundrels, blade dancers, more traditional 'rogue's. They are perfectly fine with little overlap with other specs, assassination and sub though are the same spec split into two.

    Honestly i think rogues have some of the worst talent choices in the game, they all feel pretty boring. Merging the two dagger specs into a single much more rich spec would be awesome, splitting their more unique things throughout the talent tree.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    both have a stacking dot poison, both have rupture, thats a piss poor way of distinguishing them! and for buffing? both have SnD, aaaand thats it.
    In Shadowlands yes, and this is a step backwards from Legion and BfA where they were much better differentiated. In Legion and BfA, subtlety only has one debuff, Nightblade, which is a relatively weak dot but a strong personal damage buff and healing debuff. Likewise assassination has zero offensive self buffs. That was a good thing as far as class fantasy goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Ninjas and assassins are effectively the same thing
    That's semantics. Assassination rogues and subtlety rogues are not "effectively the same thing", any more than thugs are "effectively the same thing" as spies. The part where you went wrong is thinking of WoW assassination rogues as real world assassins in terms of class fantasy, because real world assassins conjure strong notions of being stealthy. Subtlety rogue class fantasy involves a lot of stealth, assassination rogues not so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Outlaw fulfills a more unique fantasy
    It does, and that's problematic because it's too specific. If I want to make a pure duellist rogue without any pirate flavour, I can't.
    Last edited by Celfydd; 2020-09-02 at 10:15 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    1: In Shadowlands yes, and this is a step backwards from Legion and BfA where they were much better differentiated. In Legion and BfA, subtlety only has one debuff, Nightblade, which is a relatively weak dot but a strong personal damage buff and healing debuff. Likewise assassination has zero offensive self buffs. That was a good thing as far as class fantasy goes.

    2:That's semantics. Assassination rogues and subtlety rogues are not "effectively the same thing", any more than thugs are "effectively the same thing" as spies. The part where you went wrong is thinking of WoW assassination rogues as real world assassins in terms of class fantasy, because real world assassins conjure strong notions of being stealthy. Subtlety rogue class fantasy involves a lot of stealth, assassination rogues not so much.

    3:It does, and that's problematic because it's too specific. If I want to make a pure duellist rogue without any pirate flavour, I can't.
    1- eh, assassins were very poison focused in legion, which was cool, while subtlety was focused on shadows and were almost occultic. The extreme poison focus wasnt unthematic but it bordered on apothecary, and sub almost bordered on occultist. Those themes felt a little forced like they needed to do as much as possible to distinguish them, but in the end it still makes sense for sub to use poisons and assassins to use shadows, they pushed them so far out just to create some artificial difference, but thematicaly they could easily be combined.

    2: assassin rogues still use stealth, and there is nothing to stop them from using it other than it having to be exclusive with subtlety. Thats a big point, both have poisons and stealth, focusing more on one should be an 'intra-spec' thing, not an interspec thing. And honestly its kind of moot talking about real world ninjas and assassins, neither really fight in wars and fail in protracted fights, they generally use tricks to kill without fighting, with fighting being more about maneuvering and escaping. Wow however is focused entirely on fighting, but i digress, they have far too similar identity and only miss out on cool tools that would make sense because they need to make them exclusive specs.

    3: I actually really agree with that, i think there should be pirate themed talents, rogue themed talents and duelist themed talents. Rogue was always the only real option for the swordmaster fantasy (warrior fulfills a different version) and the pistol shot (regardless of whether i like it or not) clashes with that. They could just make them melee baseline and offer the pistol versions as optional upgrades. For example, replace pistol shot with reflective strike (or something) which deals lower damage than sinister strike, but sinister strike can make it free. Make pistol shot a t1 talent that replaces it, increases its proc chance and range. Gameplay is the same, just that that particular talent brings out that pirate fantasy.

  4. #64
    away from fantasy, back to the OT:
    Premeditation is working during dance on current PTR.

    the buff refreshes every 2ish seconds and does not require "real" stealth.
    oh, and you get BOTH the SnD duration AND the 2CP if SnD is running.

    if you use Enveloping Shadows or have enough mobs for 5CP SS to recharge SD fast enough, you can stack SnD to over 5 minutes (i stopped at 5 min displayed)

  5. #65
    If they actually gave Rogues a ranged spec I would probably re sub for Shadowlands, but everything ive seen just screams lazy development so I will just stick with FF14 (which has actual ninjas).

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Stopher121 View Post
    If they actually gave Rogues a ranged spec I would probably re sub for Shadowlands, but everything ive seen just screams lazy development so I will just stick with FF14 (which has actual ninjas).
    a range spec in wow LOL

    blizzard has never introduced another ranged into WoW

  7. #67
    Rogues dont need a ranged spec. Outlaw shouldnt even have a pistol in my opinion. It should be the best spec out of stealth and just rely on guile and duel swords/axes/maces etc. And assassin/sub utilize stealth to be just as strong but in different ways.

    They need to introduce a class that can tank and has a ranged dps option. The game needs more tanks more than anything so finding dungeon groups etc isnt such a drag.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

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