The "coming soon" talent ...

[Seliar]

I'm confused, did they do damage tuning already? I figured we should still be in the phase where talking about damage of any ability is ridiculous as we should be focusing on how a skill plays rather than its damage.

There isn't much to discuss regarding how the skill plays, it's just an aoe dmg finisher, in aoe situation you press this instead of evis, that's all it has, nothing fancy about it. Even if beta isn't in dmg tuning phase it's ridicolous that we have a finisher that deals less dmg than the cp builder.
But if you insist, how about the animation, which is the same as shurriken storm except that the character jumps. I can reproduce it already on live infinitely with spamming shstorm while jumping.. it's boring as hell for me.

[shoegazing]

There isn't much to discuss regarding how the skill plays, it's just an aoe dmg finisher, in aoe situation you press this instead of evis, that's all it has, nothing fancy about it. Even if beta isn't in dmg tuning phase it's ridicolous that we have a finisher that deals less dmg than the cp builder.
But if you insist, how about the animation, which is the same as shurriken storm except that the character jumps. I can reproduce it already on live infinitely with spamming shstorm while jumping.. it's boring as hell for me.

I'll will be the first and loudest person to tell you that Subtlety, a famously single target oriented spec, having any kind of AoE damage is just plain stupid and completely ruins the identity and distinct strengths and weaknesses...

...and yet, even I can see that there are in fact some applications of this ability. The animation actually makes you immune to knockback effects so you can make plays by timing it around those effects even outside of AoE situations. It also allows you to gain extra elevation after a first jump, giving additional reach when combined with skills like Shadowstep (useful on some arena maps and BGs).

I still don't think it's the right ability for Subtlety's kit at all, but there is more depth to it than anyone is giving credit. People are just obsessed with "the rotation", sims, damage meters, etc and often don't see the more complete picture of gameplay.

Also it's obvious that we haven't even had a first tuning pass yet to balance the relative damage of abilities within our kit, let alone a second tuning pass to balance our damage relative to other specs and classes. So anybody commenting on numbers at all at this point, whether positive or negative, is just completely wasting time.

[Lodravel]

...and yet, even I can see that there are in fact some applications of this ability. The animation actually makes you immune to knockback effects so you can make plays by timing it around those effects even outside of AoE situations. It also allows you to gain extra elevation after a first jump, giving additional reach when combined with skills like Shadowstep (useful on some arena maps and BGs).

Have you tried countering stuns? Kind of like DfA has a few invulnerability frames when you're suspended in the air. Judging by the animation, it would be an extremely short window in which that would hypothetically be possible, but it would be cool nevertheless.

Can't really test it myself, got close to 500ms on the PTR. :'D

[Volatilis]

I'll will be the first and loudest person to tell you that Subtlety, a famously single target oriented spec, having any kind of AoE damage is just plain stupid and completely ruins the identity and distinct strengths and weaknesses...

Your logic means a spec is completely useless for 50% of pve content.

Its clear the spec needed to shape to the modern WoW. Could it do that better? Absolutely. But being stuck as a CC pvp spec is just as limiting.

[shoegazing]

Your logic means a spec is completely useless for 50% of pve content.

Its clear the spec needed to shape to the modern WoW. Could it do that better? Absolutely. But being stuck as a CC pvp spec is just as limiting.

Rogue is a pure dps class with 3 leather wearing, agility based, melee dps specs. PvE Rogues overall are fine and will always be fine. It's not necessary for every spec to be built for every kind of content imaginable, otherwise they become very same-y mechanically and the only differences are spell FX, animations, "fantasy", etc. They become reskins of everything else.

It's better for Subtlety to be focused on its niche, on its traditional strengths, and the same for the other Rogue specs, so no matter your Rogue playstyle, the player can find a spec that fits like a glove.

[Volatilis]

Rogue is a pure dps class with 3 leather wearing, agility based, melee dps specs. PvE Rogues overall are fine and will always be fine. It's not necessary for every spec to be built for every kind of content imaginable, otherwise they become very same-y mechanically and the only differences are spell FX, animations, "fantasy", etc. They become reskins of everything else.

It's better for Subtlety to be focused on its niche, on its traditional strengths, and the same for the other Rogue specs, so no matter your Rogue playstyle, the player can find a spec that fits like a glove.

So rogues are assassin and outlaw only for pve now? Good to know.

A well designed spec with interesting talent choices can easily do both you know. They could easily use pvp talents better

[StillMcfuu]

Rogue is a pure dps class with 3 leather wearing, agility based, melee dps specs. PvE Rogues overall are fine and will always be fine. It's not necessary for every spec to be built for every kind of content imaginable, otherwise they become very same-y mechanically and the only differences are spell FX, animations, "fantasy", etc. They become reskins of everything else.

It's better for Subtlety to be focused on its niche, on its traditional strengths, and the same for the other Rogue specs, so no matter your Rogue playstyle, the player can find a spec that fits like a glove.

I kind of disagree with this sentiment, at least I don't agree with it in the same way as if you said "mage has 3 dps specs".
Rogue is more of what happens when you try to take a class that had 3 combat modifying trees and turn them into 3 specs. If you look at common Vanilla builds for Rogue, there is no such thing as a "deep xyz" build. All builds pull one thing or another from the other trees, it just kind of depends on how you want to stab or slice your way through Azeroth. Even dedicated PvP rogue builds don't get 31 on the Sub side.

When you look at Rogue vs every other class in the game, originally the trees were more of damage modifiers and you needed a bit from each, other classes trees are each a spec of their own, unique in playstyle.

I think this differing of philosophy between Rogue and the other classes has followed it and become magnified with the Legion spec split. I think Rogue would be better suited rolling the best of Sub and the best of Assassination into one tree and letting players choose how they want to play through talent choices. Obviously there would be a bit lost in translation here, but you can see my point this way. Sub is a bit of a dysfunctional tree, it getting to see more of the functional abilities from Assa would greatly improve spec health.

If you want another example, the Survival tree for hunter was always more of the "buff melee/traps" tree vs an actual viable playstyle route. Survival getting the legion rework and becoming melee is the same symptom that Rogue faced with Sub (and Combat/Outlaw if we are honest).

[shoegazing]

So rogues are assassin and outlaw only for pve now? Good to know.

A well designed spec with interesting talent choices can easily do both you know. They could easily use pvp talents better

They can also better use set bonuses, PvE trinkets, legendaries, etc better to create a playstyle that works great for PvE without disrupting the masterpiece symphony of burst and control in PvP...

And that is my key point... It's famous as a PvP spec and players who are focused on that have had a decade or more to gravitate towards it. That history needs to be respected and that masterpiece playstyle should not be disrupted when PvE Rogues already have two other great options to choose from.

Furthermore if you look at the patch there have already been tiers where Subtlety was very well regarded in PvE without sacrificing any of the iconic PvP playstyle... Dragon Soul, HFC, etc. So, yea, just do that.

[Volatilis]

They can also better use set bonuses, PvE trinkets, legendaries, etc better to create a playstyle that works great for PvE without disrupting the masterpiece symphony of burst and control in PvP...

And that is my key point... It's famous as a PvP spec and players who are focused on that have had a decade or more to gravitate towards it. That history needs to be respected and that masterpiece playstyle should not be disrupted when PvE Rogues already have two other great options to choose from.

Furthermore if you look at the patch there have already been tiers where Subtlety was very well regarded in PvE without sacrificing any of the iconic PvP playstyle... Dragon Soul, HFC, etc. So, yea, just do that.

set bonuses were removed 2 expansions ago? Because people complained about being "forced" to use at least 4 pieces regardless of ilvl. Like it matters if you have a 460ilvl among all the 480's but I guess WoW is full of whiny people with OCD. And judging by MMO Champ forum thats not a bad shout.

And how many trinkets in BFA changed gameplay? 99% of trinkets are a main stat with a 2ndary proc or a 2ndary stat with a main stat proc.

Blizz are just getting lazier and dont wanna put the work in

[Rhelyo]

set bonuses were removed 2 expansions ago? Because people complained about being "forced" to use at least 4 pieces regardless of ilvl. Like it matters if you have a 460ilvl among all the 480's but I guess WoW is full of whiny people with OCD. And judging by MMO Champ forum thats not a bad shout.

And how many trinkets in BFA changed gameplay? 99% of trinkets are a main stat with a 2ndary proc or a 2ndary stat with a main stat proc.

Blizz are just getting lazier and dont wanna put the work in

Thanks you just reminded me of the time they actually designed good trinkets back in Cataclysm. Still remember the OPness of the one that casted shadowbolts on all mobs near your target which was funny to see 30+ shadowbolts flying around in Alterac Valley casted from one person.Multiply that by all the casters since it was that good. Or the weapon? i think it was that procced tentacles on the ground that casted mind flay kinda like the corruption we have now.
I dont remember but melee classes had OP trinkets back then aswell but cant remember which.

[WowClassic]

set bonuses were removed 2 expansions ago? Because people complained about being "forced" to use at least 4 pieces regardless of ilvl. Like it matters if you have a 460ilvl among all the 480's but I guess WoW is full of whiny people with OCD. And judging by MMO Champ forum thats not a bad shout.

And how many trinkets in BFA changed gameplay? 99% of trinkets are a main stat with a 2ndary proc or a 2ndary stat with a main stat proc.

Blizz are just getting lazier and dont wanna put the work in

Everything being reduced to a single number "ilvl" is one of the things that ruined the game. In Classic it's amazing to see people go crazy that a green ring dropped just because it has +20NR, or a blue items from the start of the game is still used by a lot of people in Phase 5.

[Jackstraw]

I just found out about this Premed and I'm beyond perplexed.

Shadow Vault is dumb. Whirling Dragon Punch with shurikens? I sure hope it does not have the bugs connected to WDP.

Also I'd much rather have Secret Technique baseline than having an honest to god Rogue turning into a shuriken tossing spinning flying ballerina.

[Coldkil]

I just found out about this Premed and I'm beyond perplexed.

Shadow Vault is dumb. Whirling Dragon Punch with shurikens? I sure hope it does not have the bugs connected to WDP.

Also I'd much rather have Secret Technique baseline than having an honest to god Rogue turning into a shuriken tossing spinning flying ballerina.

It's an aoe finisher the spec needed. The animation is meh, but i don't care much about it at this point.

[bloodmoth13]

I kind of disagree with this sentiment, at least I don't agree with it in the same way as if you said "mage has 3 dps specs".
Rogue is more of what happens when you try to take a class that had 3 combat modifying trees and turn them into 3 specs. If you look at common Vanilla builds for Rogue, there is no such thing as a "deep xyz" build. All builds pull one thing or another from the other trees, it just kind of depends on how you want to stab or slice your way through Azeroth. Even dedicated PvP rogue builds don't get 31 on the Sub side.

When you look at Rogue vs every other class in the game, originally the trees were more of damage modifiers and you needed a bit from each, other classes trees are each a spec of their own, unique in playstyle.

I think this differing of philosophy between Rogue and the other classes has followed it and become magnified with the Legion spec split. I think Rogue would be better suited rolling the best of Sub and the best of Assassination into one tree and letting players choose how they want to play through talent choices. Obviously there would be a bit lost in translation here, but you can see my point this way. Sub is a bit of a dysfunctional tree, it getting to see more of the functional abilities from Assa would greatly improve spec health.

If you want another example, the Survival tree for hunter was always more of the "buff melee/traps" tree vs an actual viable playstyle route. Survival getting the legion rework and becoming melee is the same symptom that Rogue faced with Sub (and Combat/Outlaw if we are honest).

Agree with this completely. Sub and assassination both fulfill the exact same fantasy, the role of ninja/assassin is completely interchangeable, and with the great ability 'unprune' they are doing by sharing everything between specs, they have even less distinction.
Frankly they should bite the bullet, merge sin and sub and create a new ranged spec for rogues just for flavour. Its annoying that the only ranged physical spec is hunter, it would be nice for some variety.

[Jackstraw]

It's an aoe finisher the spec needed. The animation is meh, but i don't care much about it at this point.

The spec needing an aoe finisher is debatable at best.

Having Rogues being constantly locked in an animation that actively punishes you for pressing a button you have to press for performance is straight up a flaw in my eyes.
You get rooted in place, move on the Y axis (counts as movement, triggers conditionals tied to movement) and needs to be spammed in 3+ targets situations.
Imagine the situation: some burst damage comes that you cannot prevent, but you just about pressed Vault and you'll land in a second. Or maybe there's some no moving mechanic such as Heartstop Poison in Tol Dagor, or Burning in horrific visions.

Shadow Vault can't be opted out. You have to Vault in aoe. And that's ignoring the great point made by @Shoegaze, with Subtlety seldom having been an aoe spec. There could have been more to be done with the theme of the spec without adding the Ballerina.

[Celfydd]

Sub and assassination both fulfill the exact same fantasy, the role of ninja/assassin is completely interchangeable, and with the great ability 'unprune' they are doing by sharing everything between specs, they have even less distinction.
Frankly they should bite the bullet, merge sin and sub and create a new ranged spec for rogues just for flavour. Its annoying that the only ranged physical spec is hunter, it would be nice for some variety.

I disagree that sub and assassination fulfil the same fantasy. Assassination is a drain spec, entirely about placing debuffs. Sub is for the most part a self-buff spec relying on careful timing to execute instant burst attacks. They are as different as affliction warlock and arcane mage.

However, if you wanted to introduce a ranged rogue spec then outlaw would clearly be the most sensible place to start as you already have pistols as a signature ability. It could also work to differentiate its weird mishmash of random self buffs from subtlety's core playstyle.

[Fantazma]

My most sincere opinion about the rogue class fantasy:

I really loved the idea when it appeared on Legion. No problem for me "Combat" being a pirate now called Outlaw, Assa being the "master poisoner" and Sub being the Ninja.
The problem was not the idea, but its execution.
Subtlety was totally broken and clearly weaker than the WOD version.
As a PVP player I always loved Subtlety. It was a fast and efficiently lethal spec. This is over.
I really don't mind the poisons just being with the assassination ... but taking the bleeds, gouge, the old premed, and especially the terrible nerf in the Shadow Dance window ended up with the spec. And what about them taking Shadow Reflection from us ?? God, I loved that ...! It was a lot of fun to call a copy of yourself to apply the latest skills that were applied in the last 8 seconds ..!

Now they are saying that Sub is better than BFA. I think this is because it is impossible to get WORSE than BFA. haha ha...!

Although better than BFA, not even 20% of the changes needed for the spec to return to its glory's days were performed.

But I haven't tested the new Sub yet and it seems to me that we were very well presented with the skills of the Covenants. (Serrated Bone Spike from the Necrolords is fantastic). I believe that only in the pre-patch will we be able to say a more solid opinion.

Just one more thing. I am disappointed with the feed-back of the rogues on the official Blizzard forum. It looks like players paid by Blizzard to say that everything was fine. Some were even asked for the class to suffer some nerfs.
Clearly, that Shadow Vault is totally useless.
Clearly, we need Gouge and a single, much more powerful SD window.
Almost nothing was said about it there.

Anyway ... whatever the Old Gods want ...

In the pre-patch we talked more about it ... because I believe that no more changes will be made until then.

[bloodmoth13]

I disagree that sub and assassination fulfil the same fantasy. Assassination is a drain spec, entirely about placing debuffs. Sub is for the most part a self-buff spec relying on careful timing to execute instant burst attacks. They are as different as affliction warlock and arcane mage.

However, if you wanted to introduce a ranged rogue spec then outlaw would clearly be the most sensible place to start as you already have pistols as a signature ability. It could also work to differentiate its weird mishmash of random self buffs from subtlety's core playstyle.

Your mistaking gameplay for fantasy. Affliction warlocks use dark demonic magic, arcane mages use the polar opposite, not only are their gameplay completely different their fantasy is too, thats a terrible comparison!
And there really isnt much distinction, assassin is barely more drain focused than sub, both have a stacking dot poison, both have rupture, thats a piss poor way of distinguishing them! and for buffing? both have SnD, aaaand thats it. The only difference really is envenom & mutilate vs shadow dance, but those 3 abilities would make just as much sense in the other spec as the base spec, sub is forced into daggers regardless and would love mutilate, assassin lacks interesting cooldowns so they would love shadow dance, and envenom is a perfect talent upgrade option for eviscerate.
Ninjas and assassins are effectively the same thing, you can distinguish what type of ninja or assassin you are through talents, if you want a more drain focused spec, pick envenom and empowered shiv, if you want a more bursty focused spec, pick the shadow dance talents.

Outlaw fulfills a more unique fantasy compared to the other two, they are brawlers, privateers, pirates, scoundrels, blade dancers, more traditional 'rogue's. They are perfectly fine with little overlap with other specs, assassination and sub though are the same spec split into two.

Honestly i think rogues have some of the worst talent choices in the game, they all feel pretty boring. Merging the two dagger specs into a single much more rich spec would be awesome, splitting their more unique things throughout the talent tree.

[Celfydd]

both have a stacking dot poison, both have rupture, thats a piss poor way of distinguishing them! and for buffing? both have SnD, aaaand thats it.

In Shadowlands yes, and this is a step backwards from Legion and BfA where they were much better differentiated. In Legion and BfA, subtlety only has one debuff, Nightblade, which is a relatively weak dot but a strong personal damage buff and healing debuff. Likewise assassination has zero offensive self buffs. That was a good thing as far as class fantasy goes.

Ninjas and assassins are effectively the same thing

That's semantics. Assassination rogues and subtlety rogues are not "effectively the same thing", any more than thugs are "effectively the same thing" as spies. The part where you went wrong is thinking of WoW assassination rogues as real world assassins in terms of class fantasy, because real world assassins conjure strong notions of being stealthy. Subtlety rogue class fantasy involves a lot of stealth, assassination rogues not so much.

Outlaw fulfills a more unique fantasy

It does, and that's problematic because it's too specific. If I want to make a pure duellist rogue without any pirate flavour, I can't.

[bloodmoth13]

1: In Shadowlands yes, and this is a step backwards from Legion and BfA where they were much better differentiated. In Legion and BfA, subtlety only has one debuff, Nightblade, which is a relatively weak dot but a strong personal damage buff and healing debuff. Likewise assassination has zero offensive self buffs. That was a good thing as far as class fantasy goes.

2:That's semantics. Assassination rogues and subtlety rogues are not "effectively the same thing", any more than thugs are "effectively the same thing" as spies. The part where you went wrong is thinking of WoW assassination rogues as real world assassins in terms of class fantasy, because real world assassins conjure strong notions of being stealthy. Subtlety rogue class fantasy involves a lot of stealth, assassination rogues not so much.

3:It does, and that's problematic because it's too specific. If I want to make a pure duellist rogue without any pirate flavour, I can't.

1- eh, assassins were very poison focused in legion, which was cool, while subtlety was focused on shadows and were almost occultic. The extreme poison focus wasnt unthematic but it bordered on apothecary, and sub almost bordered on occultist. Those themes felt a little forced like they needed to do as much as possible to distinguish them, but in the end it still makes sense for sub to use poisons and assassins to use shadows, they pushed them so far out just to create some artificial difference, but thematicaly they could easily be combined.

2: assassin rogues still use stealth, and there is nothing to stop them from using it other than it having to be exclusive with subtlety. Thats a big point, both have poisons and stealth, focusing more on one should be an 'intra-spec' thing, not an interspec thing. And honestly its kind of moot talking about real world ninjas and assassins, neither really fight in wars and fail in protracted fights, they generally use tricks to kill without fighting, with fighting being more about maneuvering and escaping. Wow however is focused entirely on fighting, but i digress, they have far too similar identity and only miss out on cool tools that would make sense because they need to make them exclusive specs.

3: I actually really agree with that, i think there should be pirate themed talents, rogue themed talents and duelist themed talents. Rogue was always the only real option for the swordmaster fantasy (warrior fulfills a different version) and the pistol shot (regardless of whether i like it or not) clashes with that. They could just make them melee baseline and offer the pistol versions as optional upgrades. For example, replace pistol shot with reflective strike (or something) which deals lower damage than sinister strike, but sinister strike can make it free. Make pistol shot a t1 talent that replaces it, increases its proc chance and range. Gameplay is the same, just that that particular talent brings out that pirate fantasy.