SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[LazarusLong]

Who knows really? I mean some Botani survive the escape from AU Draenor and maybe they just know how to create conditions to revive/regenerate Genesaur on foreign worlds as long as there is plant life but nothing has come of it yet. Though I'll list alternate possibilities:
1. The Brokers can time travel and just grab stuff from whenever in addition to wherever.
2. It's an old Genesaur they've had in captivity for years taken from before they were hunted to extinction.
3. It's a Genesaur that was taken from Alternate Draenor, we know souls from there also head to the Shadowlands so maybe they took the opportunity to do some swiping.
4. Maybe there's a Primal afterlife?

5. It's a titan creation so it's possible that some other planet has repilcas.

[TheFirstOnes]

"There's no doubt to Sargeras being the strongest being we faced thus far, at least not when it comes to "brute force"." That's mostly due to his Fel Amp's and whatnot. He's still the most powerful Titan outside of Azeroth, yeah. But, the Fel amps and countless magical knowledge probably helped him out aswell. The Jailer also likely possesses knowledge of Countless magics, and who knows, he may end up being stronger than Sargeras.

"You mention "Sargeras's gaze" from the pre-Legion scenario. Let's be honest here; that was a gameplay mechanic meant to stop player's shenanigans. Sargeras didn't show that power anywhere in the lore... for if he really had this power things would have ended very differently at the well of eternity." The only canonical time he uses it against us is during Antorus. That's it. Outside of that, it was a gameplay thingy Blizzard added in so that players couldn't bug through Gul'dan. Then again, it could've canonically happened, albeit to some random dumbass soldiers.

"His army being weak could be explained by the fact that the whole experience takes part in the weakest part of the maw." His army is stated on more than 1 occasion to be infinite, to be as big as the Legion, and to be growing even MORE in size. So, no? Hell, when taking a quiz on the Maw at Oribos, the player is asked if they thought the Maw was challenging/overwhelming, in which the Player can respond with "Ever fought the Legion? lol". So, I'd say they can at the very least be relative atm.

"You also ridicule him about letting us take his prisoners; but if i recall correctly later on there's dialogue between him and Sylvanus where he reveals he wanted us to do exactly that. Also what he does in the end (by not killing us and his prisoners) might have something to do with him not wanting to erase us. For some reason he seems pretty hellbent on keeping these souls captive after all." Yeah. He wants us for something.

"Overall how the Jailer is presented seems very similar to what we had with Arthas... who was pretty much baiting us all expansion long." He did kinda play 5-D chess with the entire WoW Cosmology, thanks to the Dreadlords + Denathrius helping him with carrying out the plot to begin with. Not to mention the fact that he also fooled the Legion 10 fold with the creation of the LK, which did kinda lead to the Jailer winning the Third War tbh (As Arthas became the LK, therefore fulfilling his plan with the fallen prince).

"It could very much be that the Jailer also just strings us along... (either to deal with Sylvanus for him, because he doesn't trust her... or any bigger reason)" Nah, the dude just wants power.

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5. It's a titan creation so it's possible that some other planet has repilcas.

Basically this...

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Not to mention that no one officially has said he's supposed to be stronger than Sargeras. Not sure why would he be compared to him anyway.

We know so little about the Jailer atm, that it's almost impossible to come to a conclusion like that to begin with. All we know is that he rules an Infinite Army, he wants ultimate power, and that he's a Titan/Titan++ level threat who is said to destroy all of reality if freed from the Maw's grasp. We DO know that he's older than Sargeras, however, as he's stated by Bolvar to be "an evil older than reality itself".

[tommyhil622]

We know so little about the Jailer atm, that it's almost impossible to come to a conclusion like that to begin with. All we know is that he rules an Infinite Army, he wants ultimate power, and that he's a Titan/Titan++ level threat who is said to destroy all of reality if freed from the Maw's grasp. We DO know that he's older than Sargeras, however, as he's stated by Bolvar to be "an evil older than reality itself".

Yea i know. Just replying to the constant comparison between Sargeras and the Jailer. Sargeras is a Titan++ level threat, always has been since the beginning of World of Warcraft.

Imo the Titan++ is extremely vague and it's a broad spectrum. The point is the comparison between him and Sargeras is not needed and has never been officially stated by any Blizzard Official.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yea i know. Just replying to the constant comparison between Sargeras and the Jailer. Sargeras is a Titan++ level threat, always has been since the beginning of World of Warcraft.

Imo the Titan++ is extremely vague and it's a broad spectrum. The point is the comparison between him and Sargeras is not needed and has never been officially stated by any Blizzard Official.

Could argue Sargeras is only a Titan+ level threat, but you're right, it's very vague. From what I can GET however, is that the Jailer seems to be depicted as "our most powerful foe so far". Seems the Void Lords and the Light are next, tbh.

[Varodoc]

I could see Sylvanas being the final boss of the Ardenweald raid, if only because it would be EXTREMELY SATISFYING to have Sylvanas blow up ala Archimonde in WC3.

In fact, now that I think about it, this sounds very likely to happen. Blizzard loves to recycle plot points, and it would be perfect karma for Sylvanas to die from the very souls she burned at Teldrassil.

[tommyhil622]

I could see Sylvanas being the final boss of the Ardenweald raid, if only because it would be EXTREMELY SATISFYING to have Sylvanas blow up ala Archimonde in WC3.

In fact, now that I think about it, this sounds very likely to happen. Blizzard loves to recycle plot points, and it would be perfect karma for Sylvanas to die from the very souls she burned at Teldrassil.

I'm not so certain about her being in the Ardenweald raid. I also think Slyvannas is probably not going to die in a raid/dungeon. Will probably survive any encounter she's in. Ardenweald or otherwise. Now what happens after is the real question.

[TheFirstOnes]

I could see Sylvanas being the final boss of the Ardenweald raid, if only because it would be EXTREMELY SATISFYING to have Sylvanas blow up ala Archimonde in WC3.

In fact, now that I think about it, this sounds very likely to happen. Blizzard loves to recycle plot points, and it would be perfect karma for Sylvanas to die from the very souls she burned at Teldrassil.

Maybe? Who knows, I do see the female Nathrezim coming in tho this expac, as well as Mal'ganis.

[Addiena]

Maybe? Who knows, I do see the female Nathrezim coming in tho this expac, as well as Mal'ganis.

Didnt you know, Denathrius is Malganis, Im calling it right now and Mally has the real Denathrius locked up in Thorghast.

[UndedoKoleda]

Because the Jailer is a God of Death (Eternal One). What is a king to a God? Nothing.

Exactly. Nothing. Gods don't appoint kings, that's below them. And the Jailer is just some chained up dude with grandomania, he is nowhere near a God.

[Varodoc]

Exactly. Nothing. Gods don't appoint kings, that's below them. And the Jailer is just some chained up dude with grandomania, he is nowhere near a God.

The Jailer is an Eternal One, Titan-level beings who have been described by Blizzard as forming their own Pantheon of Death. They are essentially the Gods of the Shadowlands.

[UndedoKoleda]

The Jailer is an Eternal One, Titan-level beings who have been described by Blizzard as forming their own Pantheon of Death. They are essentially the Gods of the Shadowlands.

They are nobodies, we are killing one in the first raid. Without the HoA, without a Dragon Soul, without an entire pantheon backing us up. We just kick his face in, oldschool style.

And another one of these "Gods of the Shadowlands" had her ass handed to her in the Spires of Ascension. They are a bunch of nobodies, nowhere even close to Titans.

[TheFirstOnes]

They are nobodies, we are killing one in the first raid. Without the HoA, without a Dragon Soul, without an entire pantheon backing us up. We just kick his face in, oldschool style.

And another one of these "Gods of the Shadowlands" had her ass handed to her in the Spires of Ascension. They are a bunch of nobodies, nowhere even close to Titans.

You do realize we're getting amp'd up by the Covenants, Conduits, SL Legendaries, etc, yeah? Also, the Pantheon of Death and the Titans are of equal footing, as is with every pantheon.

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Killing an Eternal One just means we're that much stronger with the power-ups.

[Varodoc]

They are nobodies, we are killing one in the first raid. Without the HoA, without a Dragon Soul, without an entire pantheon backing us up. We just kick his face in, oldschool style.

And another one of these "Gods of the Shadowlands" had her ass handed to her in the Spires of Ascension. They are a bunch of nobodies, nowhere even close to Titans.

Right, but Ion said they are around the level of the Titans. So, since Ion is the director of this game and not UndedoKoleda the MMO-Champion Denizen, I'd rather listen to Ion.

[UndedoKoleda]

You do realize we're getting amp'd up by the Covenants, Conduits, SL Legendaries, etc, yeah? Also, the Pantheon of Death and the Titans are of equal footing, as is with every pantheon.

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Killing an Eternal One just means we're that much stronger with the power-ups.

So what? Previously we we're empowered by many other things, the ones i mentioned were just the cherry on top of everything else. And more powerful than anything you mentioned.
We had an essence of a blue dragon embodied into a weapon, we had armors empowered by the very blood of Azeroth, we had frigging artifact weapons(some of which destroyed entire worlds), we had multiple legendaries, that means absolutely nothing.

The "Eternal ones" are nowhere near the Titan Pantheon.

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Right, but Ion said they are around the level of the Titans. So, since Ion is the director of this game and not UndedoKoleda the MMO-Champion Denizen, I'd rather listen to Ion.

Where did he say that? Link.

[TheFirstOnes]

Also, in regards to the Jailer, he is NOT a nobody.

Look at Mueh'zala, for example. He:

1. Took Odyn's eye so that he could show the Prime Designate a glimpse into the Shadowlands, which was so amazing that Odyn could not believe wtf is happening, and made the Halls of Valor as a result of him being so inspired by Bastion.

2. Empowered Helya to her Titan-Keeper level state, which gave her access to creating Hellheim, and keeping the Prime Designate of the Keepers in 1 spot.

And 3. Is the most powerful Loa ever. Reminder, he's likely beyond Keeper level, and we slapped the fuck out of him in a dungeon. And if you say we don't, we do. It's not like Helya in Legion, where all we did was annoy her, Mueh'zala legit said "BESTED BY MORTALS?! HOW?!". We'll likely fight him again, but he'll be more empowered by the Jailer.

ALL OF THIS, WHILE BEING EMPOWERED BY THE JAILER FROM AN INFINITE DISTANCE, WHILE HE WAS TRAPPED AND STUCK IN THE MAW! (As the Shadowlands contains infinite realms, and is infinite, which therefore should mean there is infinite distance. Tho, I may be wanking a small bit).

He's also confirmed to be a very important part in the Warcraft Cosmology (About as important as the Void Lords and Sargeras, likely), and is highly likely to be the dude responsible for the Enemy Infiltration Plot, and the Dreadlords + Sire Denathrius' ordeal in carrying it out. Even Il'gynoth implied this shit, in I think either BFA or Legion? I forget. :/

We already know this fucker fooled the Legion in WC3 due to his 9-D chess game with the Helm of Domination + Frostmourne.

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So what? Previously we we're empowered by many other things, the ones i mentioned were just the cherry on top of everything else. And more powerful than anything you mentioned.
We had an essence of a blue dragon embodied into a weapon, we had armors empowered by the very blood of Azeroth, we had frigging artifact weapons(some of which destroyed entire worlds), we had multiple legendaries, that means absolutely nothing.

The "Eternal ones" are nowhere near the Titan Pantheon.

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Where did he say that? Link.

We did use the Dragon Soul, yes. But that not only failed to kill Deathwing (A puppet of N'Zoth), but it also still required the Aspects aid to destroy him completely. Reminder, we're beyond the aspects now in SL. That's kinda supposed to be the point, especially regarding the "age of mortals".

The blood of Azeroth doesn't mean we're Titan level. Can just mean we're empowered by a Titan and all, which can also mean we're capable of taking hits from Old Gods, or someone like Azshara. Reminder, N'Zoth still almost had us, had it not been for the HoA empowering us, as well as the reorigination thing saving us. Did I mention the cloak? Azerite Armor is just extra defense, if anything. And that still made us at least Azshara level.

"we had frigging artifact weapons(some of which destroyed entire worlds)" A lot of these weapons are more powerful than just "destroying planets". The scepter of Sargeras, when used to its full potential, can unleash some of Sargeras' true might on enemies, and Sargeras is far beyond planetary, which is something people (unfortunately) not get, etc etc. But yeah, the Artifacts are very powerful. In fact, one of our Artifacts was the Blades of the Fallen Prince, which was used from the shards of Frostmourne, which was a piece of DOMINATION gear that LOST ITS POWER!!!! So...

Not helping your case, I guess?

The amps we're getting from the Shadowlands are beyond most of what we're capable of getting from reality, and this is mostly due to the help of outside factors, such as conduits, or the Eternal Ones blessing us.

Also, yes they are. The Eternal Ones and the Pantheon are comparable, and Steve literally states that the Eternal Ones are "Titan-like" in power. Other interviews house the Winter Queen as Keeper level, but that is VERY easy to negate, if you look at Mueh'zala and how he fell so easily.

And to answer your Jailer question: https://www.wowhead.com/news=316804/...of-shadowlands

Other interviews have him at Titan Level, but WoWhead's is the most credible.

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Oh yeah, btw

The reason Argus was such a massive challenge for us was because he was being empowered by Death, which is basically Shadowlands magics. Dude literally became the Death Titan, and was using Death Magics to enact his "End of All Things" spell, which IS canon, lore-wise. And wanna know what that can do?

IT CAN END CREATION! Something Sargeras or the other Titans cannot do, because Argus was empowered by magics FROM THE SHADOWLANDS!

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I assume he's also using magics from the Jailer aswell, which I guess could make sense, as the Jailer seems to have chatted with the Legion a bit prior to the LK's creation? Maybe he and Sargeras have special connections, and the Jailer was going to use this amp to satisfy his needs, while secretly cucking Sargeras of his own regarding Argus and Azeroth? Idk...

Both wished to see the end of existence though at that moment, so maybe their goal was common there? Idk, I'm just assuming at this rate. Argus was empowered by magics from the Shadowlands tho.

[Varodoc]

Where did he say that? Link.

I am so well-documented that I can give you not one but two different links to that major interview:

Shadowlands is the first expansion in a while where we're walking in knowing exactly who the antagonist and final boss will likely be in the form of the Jailor. What are the challenges involved with that, and how did you decide to go down that route?

Frankly, it's almost the opposite of a challenge. I think it's an easier way to tell a story and set up an expansion with very clear theming, harkening back to the wrath or our Cataclysm Deathwing days.

Part of why we didn't openly talk about who the end boss of some recent expansions was going to be, was that it wouldn't have made sense if we said it at the time. It would have given away story spoilers or twists and turns along the way. Starting out in Warlords of Draenor and being told, "hey, you're gonna fight Archimonde at the end of this one" would have been kind of a head-scratcher when it comes to understanding the theming of the expansion.

But here, there is a major, Titan-level antagonist that we are facing. And we have many steps in our journey to uncover the nature of the Jailor's plan, and put together the forces and support to even have a chance against him. And the story is going to wind its way through all the Shadowlands and our content updates until we ultimately do get a chance to confront the Jailor himself.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200714...on-hazzikostas

Honestly, it's almost the opposite of a challenge (having the identity of the final boss public at the start). It's almost an easier way to tell a story and set up an expansion with a very clear theme, harkening back to the Wrath or Cataclysm/Deathwing days. We didn't openly talk about the end boss for some recent expansions because it wouldn't have made sense at the time, or it would have given away story spoilers and twists. For example, in Warlords of Draenor, if you were told you'd fight Archimonde at the end, it would have been a head-scratcher. But here, there is a major titan plus plus level antagonist that we are facing, and there are major steps in our journey to undercover the nature of the jailer's plan and put together the forces to have a chance against him. That story will wend its way through all of Shadowlands and our content updates, until we ultimately do get a chance to face the Jailer.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200709...of-shadowlands

[TheFirstOnes]

I assume the WoWhead interview just went off what he said when talking, while the other interview was more concrete with the point lmao. Same result either way.

[UndedoKoleda]

I am so well-documented that I can give you not one but two different links to that major interview:




https://web.archive.org/web/20200714...on-hazzikostas



https://web.archive.org/web/20200709...of-shadowlands

That is the antagonist. Not the Pantheon of Death. The Jailer juiced up for who knows how long, he is far more powerful than the rest of them. Yet, he is still not a God level.

[TheFirstOnes]

That is the antagonist. Not the Pantheon of Death. The Jailer juiced up for who knows how long, he is far more powerful than the rest of them. Yet, he is still not a God level.

None of the Pantheon's are really "Gods". The First Ones, or Elune fit into that reign more than anything. The Titans AT MOST are said to be God-like. The same way the Eternal Ones are God-like, etc.

The Pantheon of Death is also weakened by the drought a bit, and Denathrius is getting juiced up not by the Anima he's been keeping in store (Which is why he's still at his prime), but also by the Jailer, who now has a direct Anima connection from Revendreth to the Maw, so he can not only get amp'd up himself, but he can now also amp up Denathrius to a crazy degree.

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Oh, and the Jailer is still an Eternal One. So...

[Houle]

The reason Argus was such a massive challenge for us was because he was being empowered by Death, which is basically Shadowlands magics. Dude literally became the Death Titan, and was using Death Magics to enact his "End of All Things" spell, which IS canon, lore-wise. And wanna know what that can do?

IT CAN END CREATION! Something Sargeras or the other Titans cannot do, because Argus was empowered by magics FROM THE SHADOWLANDS!

So. First of all, you argued that the "Gaze of Sargeras" thing is just gameplay. But now that "End of Creation" thing is definitely lore, and not just gameplay?
You cant have it both ways mate. Blizz needed an abillity which one-shotted the raid, and to make it sound more dramatic they added that creation part.
The thing just exists as gameplay. Argus was most definitely not able to just end the entire cosmos like that. It would make him the most OP fucker of all time, with no need to obey Sargeras or anyone else.

Alsoooo, that bit about him being especially "empowered" by Shadowlands magic is just headcanon of yours. We have no confirmation for that AT ALL.
Titans can just use magic from all realms (Eonar used life often, Sargeras started using fel etc), doesnt mean Argus ewas especially empowered by anything more than the others.

We already know this fucker fooled the Legion in WC3 due to his 9-D chess game with the Helm of Domination + Frostmourne.

IDK why everyone thinks the Jailer played some 5-D chest with that. He got the helm, gave it to the Legion knowing theyd use it, which would be good for him. Nothing about that is in any way extremely complicated or outstandingly smart.
If anything, it was simply supremely stupid of the Legion to use an incredibly powerful magical death helmet with no idea how it actually works and what it can do (gj there kil'jaeden).
But thats blizz for you, dumbing down old characters/villains to make new ones look smart.