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  1. #1701
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They definitely seemed to - they weakened him and eventually (over just a few moments of their formation) all he could really do was struggle to get free.
    he lost because he wasted all his power and Sylvanas keep shooting at him, it was not because the chains itself
    He broke them and it didn't matter, so again, meaningless distinction.
    if he break then the others could do the same, again, it would make more sense if it was mroe of those flying fishman and a battle for then to be taken
    I'm saying he was a creature of Death, and so he may have additional defense against whatever magic the chains use (presumably also Death). Anduin and the others are not, and so may not have had even the level of resistance Bolvar exhibited.
    that is nonsensical, being a creature of death would make the chains more useful on him, and less useful agains living or light users


    1.) Again, probably wouldn't have mattered. The Val'kyr aren't birds, and they probably don't use the air to stay aloft in the first place.
    yeah sure, they flap those wings merely by a cosmetic choice, no like the element of air would help then in the air, neither they could blast then with lighting, they are completely defenseless.
    2.) You have no idea what they were or weren't, so who's to really say. I'm saying they're powerful based on what they do, you're saying they're nameless mooks based on... well, based on nothing. Either way, neither of us know how powerful they are.
    based on then being nameless mooks in the shadowlands where you kill by the dozen, you are saying they are powerful based on your headcanon that those someway somehow are special
    3.) "Oh look the sky is darkening, this means dark angel-like beings are going to materialize any moment now to try to kidnap us." That's a silly argument and would require the expectation of omniscience on the part of the leaders in question.
    the sky is darknening, in a wierd andsuspect way, maybe there is some shit going on and should rpepare myself?

    no, it must be just a rain

    o shit 2 valkyr fucks are coming from us what we do?

    we wait patiently for then and do nothing at all




    Apparently not. I think your expectations here are unrealistic.
    my expectations were completely realistic, maybe thats why it didn't happen, lame half asset things happening all the tim became realistic for you i guess

    If I agreed with you that it was ridiculous, but I don't. You've yet to really provide a convincing argument beyond reiterating your opinion.
    me and others already did, thats just you who refuse to accept the silliness of those fishing kidnapping


    It's neither convenient nor a plot-hole, really. It's the story being told.
    bad story told in bad way
    I can't really help or hinder you there, your opinions are your own at the end of the day.
    sure, its just me who think that.

    You can take a still of anyone in the act of speaking or shouting and make a funny image out of it, doesn't really change anything of note. Memes aren't facts, either; even if the image is hilarious it's also ripped entirely out of its context to make it funny.
    you ask abou the comedy in there, the comedy is how the most powerful mortals in azeroth were fished like tuna, by just 2 people, extrmelly easy, and they did shit about

  2. #1702
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    1. The abduction as a whole is useless no matter how you look at it. On a Watsonian level, the purpose of baiting the Horde and Alliance into the Shadowlands, then the giant hole in the sky should be grounds enough for them to do so as Bolvar would rally them regardless of the abductions. From a Doylist level, you could still get these characters into the Shadowlands by simply having them be part of the vanguard, this also makes them proactive and heroic in going after the problem after sensing it rather than being damsels.
    "It's useless no matter how you look at it" is not an explanation, nor an elaboration as it's more of the same. Northrend isn't really monitored by anyone aside from Bolvar himself, so people who are oceans away may not know about the hole in the sky without going there - which the abduction both draws attention to and is a reason tp bring them to the place where the things are happening. People in the US. for example, cannot see a super-typhoon striking Japan. So that covers that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    2. Suppose the abduction wasn't useless and was in fact necessary. On a Watsonian level, the Jailor's whole MO is the conversion of souls into being his tools through torture and he has full control of the afterlife, anyone killed can go there. Furthermore, no one can observe whether after being taken, those abducted are alive or dead - Sylvanas isn't streaming hostage videos. Ergo, assuming abduction was necessary, abducting them visibly and then killing them secures the most benefit for the villains and is the most logical course of action and they are in-story discredited. It's up to the out of universe reasoning to make it pay off. On a Doylist level, this is done to raise the stakes and give us a personal reason to go to the Shadowlands because it is assumed we want to get Anduin because we're masochists. It also builds up the villain as powerful for abducting these characters, ergo, for it to work both the method must check out and the plotline produced must have pay off, hence why the following two are solely Doylist.
    That's not the Jailer's whole MO, that's mostly insubstantial speculation on your part and it isn't true for his current general, Sylvanas, whom he also didn't kill and recreate in the Shadowlands. Bolvar, however, can obviously observe it - given both his connection to the Maw and his apparent awareness of Sylvanas' plan in the opening of the same cutscene ("she will come for them all") - plus those captured had several witnesses to their capture, and like Genn quickly put 2+2 together so did they. Tack this on to the refutation of point #1 and you have a strong Watsonian reason why the abduction also happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    3. The abduction is what gets us onto the story. I will say that it was a very funny cinematic, but as we can tell from just about every platform where it's discussed where that's also the opinion it doesn't convincingly make us think that the villain is threatening. This is because the villain's victory is extremely quick and unearned and the characters either have their abduction take place off-screen (understandable so you don't repeat the same sequence over and over) or for the one on-screen example we do see, put up no resistance despite the protection they should have and their combat prowess. Instead of showing the villain as competent and dangerous and the heroes as heroic, it shows the villain's success as unearned and the heroes as dopes. This isn't a dealbreaker by itself, because as you note, it could lead into other stories, which gets us into the last point.
    It doesn't convince *you*, and you can speak only for yourself here - your opinion is your own. I can see both why and how the leaders were unable to fight back, as they were taken by surprise and considerable force. They're capture, in my view, is no real crossing of the Rubicon of absurdity as you've attempted to shoehorn into being, as I've explained already. Orchestrating a lightning and completely successful attack like this does speak to the Jailer's acumen if nothing else, and it's pretty impressive he was able to pull it off (except in the case of Tyrande herself). It's also entirely possibly a few of the other leaders did fight back, and we simply weren't privy to it as it focused on Anduin's capture in terms of visibility. And again, you've also really failed to explain why this is less than convincing beyond just saying it over and over - or why it makes the leaders look like "dopes." It's kind of makes one wonder what you yourself might do if you were just milling about outside and two winged beings dropped down from the sky overhead and fired magical chains at you apropos of nothing. I think you're giving the leaders (or yourself) a bit too much credit and expecting them to have god-like reflexes or speed of thought, especially since the entire thing beings and ends in seconds (only enough time for Anduin to unlimber his sword).

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    4. There is no actual follow-up to this that required the abduction. Contrary to what you say, the first time we discussed this we already knew how this would go ergo that we would free the named characters from the Maw in the base release, before any expansions. This compounds every issue up to now on top of creating its own - it compounds the illogic of the baddies and makes them look stupid when they could have easily solved this issue for themselves yet didn't do so for no reason, the figleaf of them having a plan which is why they do it is gone, as the story has now concluded and no plan or explanation has materialized. It retroactively nullifies the impact of the abduction itself by making it be consequence-free for all participants save for Anduin, and when it comes to Anduin, it makes his capture even more cheap because it was clearly the only one that was meant to last longer and given the tete-a-tete with the Jailor we'll get soon, I struggle to believe they couldn't have got him there some other way.
    I would chalk this up to the perils of knowing the next chapter in a story before you've actually read the first one, as it were. I also think it's pretty far from concluded, given that to my knowledge we don't rescue them all in the opening chapters of Shadowlands, and it remains in the balance if we actually do successfully rescue them all. If you were following the narrative as intended you wouldn't know the resolution and it would be left open. I'd agree that knowing the conclusion beforehand does indeed dampen the sting or surprise of them actually being abducting, but I'd already accounted for that myself - I am unsure why you hadn't. It's pretty easy to suspend that knowledge and look at the story as it was meant to be told. Well, it's pretty easy to do that if you don't have an ulterior agenda, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    In closing, for the effort of ignoring all the issues up to this point, we've not ended up with anything meaningful - you could cut their journey to the Maw entirely and have them instead show up at Oribos and lose nothing in terms of characterization while making the Maw appear far more threatening by not having Jaina be only delayed because of a Sisyphus trap or both Thrall and Baine bravely able to take scores of them in their home turf.
    Not really. The leaders on their rescue from the Maw give a lot of exposition as to its nature and powers, not to mention serve as plot hooks for Torghast. I mean you're right in that those roles could be fulfilled by anyone, but it makes more narrative sense to have it be about characters we ostensibly care about recovering, at least in most cases. I think rescuing Thrall or Jaina is a lot more interesting than rescuing random Ebon Knight ID #54235 or what have you. Not to mention they're also getting additional story and background (e.g Thrall's torments in Torghast and the datamined content between the Jailer and Anduin). There's story to be told there that concerns the leaders' presences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    P.S: Since I didn't cover it earlier - Sylvanas has Dark Rangers, the Horde traditionally have Kor'kron they travel with, Stormwind not only has aerial forces on hand, but Anduin himself is meant to be watched by SI:7 and Genn is right there with him. The second to last part at least gets a shout out from Shaw though, so I'll let that slide.
    Sylvanas' Dark Rangers are with her, and Thrall never really travelled with the Kor'kron at his back at all times - they're an honor guard and for ceremony, and otherwise they spend their time guarding Orgrimmar as a whole. Ditto for Anduin, who we already covered above, and wasn't unguarded in the first place (not that it matters).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he lost because he wasted all his power and Sylvanas keep shooting at him, it was not because the chains itself
    Again, we seem to have watched a different cinematic - the chains definitely seem to effect him, and he goes from outright breaking them to near-paralysis in short order. He's winded, sure; but he had plenty of fight left in him until they sap him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    if he break then the others could do the same, again, it would make more sense if it was mroe of those flying fishman and a battle for then to be taken
    If they're draining his strength, then no, he couldn't - which is why he doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is nonsensical, being a creature of death would make the chains more useful on him, and less useful agains living or light users
    Um, no? You generally want to use the antithesis of a given power on someone who has that power, not the other way around. A creature made of fire isn't going to generally be weak against fire, as it were. Bolvar would've been resistant to the chains, but obviously not the point where he could no-sell them, because he evidently doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yeah sure, they flap those wings merely by a cosmetic choice, no like the element of air would help then in the air, neither they could blast then with lighting, they are completely defenseless.
    Not completely defenseless, no; they just don't get enough time to muster a strong defense. It's called being surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    based on then being nameless mooks in the shadowlands where you kill by the dozen, you are saying they are powerful based on your headcanon that those someway somehow are special
    They're probably elite versions, and not the nameless mooks who attack you en masse. You also get attacked by a named Val'kyr in the Maw that it takes you, Thrall, Jaina, and Darion combined to bring down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the sky is darknening, in a wierd andsuspect way, maybe there is some shit going on and should rpepare myself?

    no, it must be just a rain

    o shit 2 valkyr fucks are coming from us what we do?

    we wait patiently for then and do nothing at all

    Yes, the sky is darkening - who knows what might be happening. It could be an omen of ill portent, it could a sudden change in the weather, it could be *anything*. Are you telling me a sudden shift in clouds and lowering temperature are enough to make you know that 2-3 Mawsworn Val'kyr are going to appear and swoop down to ensnare you in literal seconds? I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    my expectations were completely realistic, maybe thats why it didn't happen, lame half asset things happening all the tim became realistic for you i guess
    Well I didn't really see at as "lame," obviously; not was it unrealistic itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    me and others already did, thats just you who refuse to accept the silliness of those fishing kidnapping
    Last I checked, a few people agreeing with your take didn't mean it was the truth. It is entirely possible for a popular opinion to be incorrect, after all. Which isn't even to say *my* opinion is the correct one, either - it's just an opinion that seems to be in the minority, at least in this thread so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    bad story told in bad way
    According to you, perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    sure, its just me who think that.
    Maybe, maybe not. All the people here who don't like it seems to be not liking it for different and varying reasons, when they have stated reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you ask abou the comedy in there, the comedy is how the most powerful mortals in azeroth were fished like tuna, by just 2 people, extrmelly easy, and they did shit about
    What was Genn supposed to do about it? Anduin got hauled up and away before he could likely even shift into Worgen form. Unless he had a crossbow somehow hidden on his person that wasn't going to help him much.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #1703
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "It's useless no matter how you look at it" is not an explanation, nor an elaboration as it's more of the same. Northrend isn't really monitored by anyone aside from Bolvar himself, so people who are oceans away may not know about the hole in the sky without going there - which the abduction both draws attention to and is a reason tp bring them to the place where the things are happening. People in the US. for example, cannot see a super-typhoon striking Japan. So that covers that.
    I elaborate in the very next sentence and explain why it's entirely unnecessary. Past that if you want to argue that the characters would've sat on their asses and fondled themselves without the abductions and Bolvar himself wouldn't have tipped them off to the giant hole in reality, especially as they already knew about the Maw Horde-side thanks to Bwonsamdi and also knew about the disruptions in the spirit realm per Shadows Rising, more power to you. The abduction as a means of bait is pointless for the aforementioned reasons - no bait is required unless we assume a comical level of apathy or ignorance on the part of the characters.

    That's not the Jailer's whole MO, that's mostly insubstantial speculation on your part and it isn't true for his current general, Sylvanas, whom he also didn't kill and recreate in the Shadowlands. Bolvar, however, can obviously observe it - given both his connection to the Maw and his apparent awareness of Sylvanas' plan in the opening of the same cutscene ("she will come for them all") - plus those captured had several witnesses to their capture, and like Genn quickly put 2+2 together so did they. Tack this on to the refutation of point #1 and you have a strong Watsonian reason why the abduction also happens.
    That is the way the Jailor has raised his functionally endless army and is expanded upon to be the way the Maw has been (mis)used by him. Quite obviously he didn't do it to someone he couldn't kill and needed in the world of the living, less so the faction leaders who he was in the process of converting when we find him, ergo, what he could've done anyway were they dead with magnitudes less risk to his plans. In this same segment I explain how after having witnessed the abduction the ideal move for the villains would be to simply kill their captives as there's no way for those who saw the abduction take place but not the follow up to determine whether they were alive or dead at the time of arrival and no benefit for the baddies in keeping them alive. Ergo, even if bait was necessary, the mere act of collecting them already provides the motive and keeping the captives alive after that point is only a detriment. It's only meta-knowledge that has the characters convinced that those on the other side are rescuable rather than that Sylvanas killed them.

    It doesn't convince *you*, and you can speak only for yourself here - your opinion is your own. I can see both why and how the leaders were unable to fight back, as they were taken by surprise and considerable force. They're capture, in my view, is no real crossing of the Rubicon of absurdity as you've attempted to shoehorn into being, as I've explained already. Orchestrating a lightning and completely successful attack like this does speak to the Jailer's acumen if nothing else, and it's pretty impressive he was able to pull it off (except in the case of Tyrande herself). It's also entirely possibly a few of the other leaders did fight back, and we simply weren't privy to it as it focused on Anduin's capture in terms of visibility. And again, you've also really failed to explain why this is less than convincing beyond just saying it over and over - or why it makes the leaders look like "dopes." It's kind of makes one wonder what you yourself might do if you were just milling about outside and two winged beings dropped down from the sky overhead and fired magical chains at you apropos of nothing. I think you're giving the leaders (or yourself) a bit too much credit and expecting them to have god-like reflexes or speed of thought, especially since the entire thing beings and ends in seconds (only enough time for Anduin to unlimber his sword).
    True, it doesn't convince me personally, but it also doesn't convince the average forumgoer no matter which forum you go to nor most of the posters here. The capture itself isn't any kind of high watermark of stupidity on the part of any of the participants, which is why after that initial topic I spent all of two paragraphs commenting on the cutscene. I figured it was self-evident that it was a bargain bit of stupidity, it's the dogged defense of something that's obvious busted that gets me. I quite clearly explain why it's less convincing - it has these capitals and major leaders appear undefended and these places easily assaulted and because we don't know much about the villains and there's no struggle involved, the villains don't appear as menacing but as if they've got cheat codes on, as @Syegfryed and @Darth-Piekus have both already covered. A hero who doesn't defend himself and his buddy who sits there as he's being nabbed aren't very heroic, ditto a villain who doesn't look like she earned her win isn't menacing because we don't blame her, we blame the writing staff. I personally am sure that I'd be nabbed, but I'm not the King of Stormwind with full command of a nation's worth of military and aerial patrols at my disposal or a mage who later mows these same Mawsworn down by the truckload with laughable ease.

    I would chalk this up to the perils of knowing the next chapter in a story before you've actually read the first one, as it were. I also think it's pretty far from concluded, given that to my knowledge we don't rescue them all in the opening chapters of Shadowlands, and it remains in the balance if we actually do successfully rescue them all. If you were following the narrative as intended you wouldn't know the resolution and it would be left open. I'd agree that knowing the conclusion beforehand does indeed dampen the sting or surprise of them actually being abducting, but I'd already accounted for that myself - I am unsure why you hadn't. It's pretty easy to suspend that knowledge and look at the story as it was meant to be told. Well, it's pretty easy to do that if you don't have an ulterior agenda, I suppose.
    I don't understand what you're getting at here - I pretty clearly explained in the context of going in blind. I.e, it builds up tension, but then has no pay off - all of those guys come out unchanged and it makes the villains look like chumps for not taking the obvious course of action and killing them. I.e, it works as a hook, but then fails as an overall story. What I'm getting at in saying that we knew all this is that none of that criticism is knew and it has been made repeatedly by a bunch of people over the course of the entire Beta process and that you can't hide behind not knowing the conclusion when you verifiably did and so does everyone in this thread - it goes nowhere.

    Not really. The leaders on their rescue from the Maw give a lot of exposition as to its nature and powers, not to mention serve as plot hooks for Torghast. I mean you're right in that those roles could be fulfilled by anyone, but it makes more narrative sense to have it be about characters we ostensibly care about recovering, at least in most cases. I think rescuing Thrall or Jaina is a lot more interesting than rescuing random Ebon Knight ID #54235 or what have you. Not to mention they're also getting additional story and background (e.g Thrall's torments in Torghast and the datamined content between the Jailer and Anduin). There's story to be told there that concerns the leaders' presences.
    I agree that familiar faces make the rescue more valuable, which I acknowledged in the previous test, I disagree in the way it was handled and it's why I suggested alternate means to get them there. In fact, them being bigged up is a point of critique - if Baine could take out 'dozens' of Maw goons despite him being basically just a large dude and no one there is any threat to Jaina and it's only the geography of the place that sets her back, the threat level is steeply reduced, and brings the whole abduction into question. If Joe Average or a B-list character were there, the plot could reasonably break them down and show us the Maw as actually threatening without making a check it can't cash in hurting characters that are immunized against lasting physical harm.

    Sylvanas' Dark Rangers are with her, and Thrall never really travelled with the Kor'kron at his back at all times - they're an honor guard and for ceremony, and otherwise they spend their time guarding Orgrimmar as a whole. Ditto for Anduin, who we already covered above, and wasn't unguarded in the first place (not that it matters).
    The claim was that the leaders don't keep security around them and they pretty clearly do.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #1704
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Neither the Horde nor the Alliance have ever had a secret service analogue
    This just in, SI:7 and the Kor'kron have never existed. Film at 11.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #1705
    Just wanted to say that direction, timing and execution matter a LOT. The idea can sound good on paper but the way you portray is what will make it or break it, ultimately. Take this gem of a death scene for example


    The execution in the cinematic is... poor. And that's undeniable. The fact that so many people reacted with laughter proves it. Laugh was definetely not the intended reaction. It's caused by Genn's absence during the important action when Anduin is grabbed, and his sudden reappearance at the end, the way he just grabs the air while standing in place in an almost theatrical manner, uncharacteristically instant surrender and the scream bordering on parody at the end. The way the scene plays out makes it look like he's been just passively observing the abduction, which contrasts with his reaction. And this contrast causes the humourous effect. etc etc
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-10-15 at 08:46 PM.

  6. #1706
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I elaborate in the very next sentence and explain why it's entirely unnecessary. Past that if you want to argue that the characters would've sat on their asses and fondled themselves without the abductions and Bolvar himself wouldn't have tipped them off to the giant hole in reality, especially as they already knew about the Maw Horde-side thanks to Bwonsamdi and also knew about the disruptions in the spirit realm per Shadows Rising, more power to you. The abduction as a means of bait is pointless for the aforementioned reasons - no bait is required unless we assume a comical level of apathy or ignorance on the part of the characters.
    Knowing about vague disruptions to the spirit world is a lot more indefinite than the Maw literally showing up at your doorstep to abscond with your leaders. Not to mention that that is immediately followed up by the Jailer and his Mawsworn co-opting the Scourge and attacking the now-reeling kingdoms of Azeroth directly, an act that is probably intended to capitalize on the sudden chaos of the leaders' disappearance and hopefully disorganize Azeroth further and soften them up for the blow to come. But regardless, they still need a reason to sound the call to the action in terms of the narrative and this provides one. You're just quibbling over technicalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That is the way the Jailor has raised his functionally endless army and is expanded upon to be the way the Maw has been (mis)used by him. Quite obviously he didn't do it to someone he couldn't kill and needed in the world of the living, less so the faction leaders who he was in the process of converting when we find him, ergo, what he could've done anyway were they dead with magnitudes less risk to his plans. In this same segment I explain how after having witnessed the abduction the ideal move for the villains would be to simply kill their captives as there's no way for those who saw the abduction take place but not the follow up to determine whether they were alive or dead at the time of arrival and no benefit for the baddies in keeping them alive. Ergo, even if bait was necessary, the mere act of collecting them already provides the motive and keeping the captives alive after that point is only a detriment. It's only meta-knowledge that has the characters convinced that those on the other side are rescuable rather than that Sylvanas killed them.
    I don't really think the faction leaders were meant to serve as "bait" in the manner you're referring to, so the majority of this is neither here nor there. Since the Jailer didn't really know we would have to come to him directly in the manner we do, it stands to reason that his goal in bring the faction leaders to him is something else, we just don't know what that is yet. All things being equal I'd agree the smart move is to kill them, but we already know isn't going to do that - we just don't know why (yet). I presume there's something he wants from them, something that posits they be more or less alive, but as I said before I don't know what that is (yet). I'd agree it's an aspect to the story they need to tell, and I'll be annoyed if they don't - but it's a story that is obviously going to be in the future if it is at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    True, it doesn't convince me personally, but it also doesn't convince the average forumgoer no matter which forum you go to nor most of the posters here. The capture itself isn't any kind of high watermark of stupidity on the part of any of the participants, which is why after that initial topic I spent all of two paragraphs commenting on the cutscene. I figured it was self-evident that it was a bargain bit of stupidity, it's the dogged defense of something that's obvious busted that gets me. I quite clearly explain why it's less convincing - it has these capitals and major leaders appear undefended and these places easily assaulted and because we don't know much about the villains and there's no struggle involved, the villains don't appear as menacing but as if they've got cheat codes on, as Syegfryed and Darth-Piekus have both already covered. A hero who doesn't defend himself and his buddy who sits there as he's being nabbed aren't very heroic, ditto a villain who doesn't look like she earned her win isn't menacing because we don't blame her, we blame the writing staff. I personally am sure that I'd be nabbed, but I'm not the King of Stormwind with full command of a nation's worth of military and aerial patrols at my disposal or a mage who later mows these same Mawsworn down by the truckload with laughable ease.
    4-5 people aren't really equivalent to "the average forum-goer," either. A nation's worth of military won't help you against an enemy who can pop out of the sky above you and nab you in moments, just like it wouldn't help you if an assassin snuck into your room at night and poisoned you while you slept. Your defense of this thus far has struck me as rather farcical, as you paint it like everyone from Baine to Anduin would be travelling with an entire regiment of sharpshooters at their back at all times, even while in the assumed safety of their own capitol without an imminent threat to be had. It's pretty much hyperbole, pure and simple. And it's not as if Anduin doesn't try to defend himself, either; he doesn't unsheath Shalamayne for nothing after all, but he's simply outplayed in this scenario. And as I said to Sygfried in my reply to him, you're assuming the Mawsworn sent to capture the leaders are all mooks, when you have no idea if they are. There's a named Mawsworn Kyrian in the intro scenario powerful enough to require the combined efforts of the Champion, Thrall, Jaina, and Darion to drive off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I don't understand what you're getting at here - I pretty clearly explained in the context of going in blind. I.e, it builds up tension, but then has no pay off - all of those guys come out unchanged and it makes the villains look like chumps for not taking the obvious course of action and killing them. I.e, it works as a hook, but then fails as an overall story. What I'm getting at in saying that we knew all this is that none of that criticism is knew and it has been made repeatedly by a bunch of people over the course of the entire Beta process and that you can't hide behind not knowing the conclusion when you verifiably did and so does everyone in this thread - it goes nowhere.
    They don't come out unchanged, though; they're very obviously scarred and depleted by their experiences in the Maw. You've simply decided it has no pay off without any kind of real analysis, and I don't really agree with your conclusions. And again, killing them may not have been in the Jailer's interest or his goal. People have been critical, sure, but that by no means implies that they're ultimately right considering we still don't know the full shape of the story. Even I'm only speculating based on patchwork knowledge, same as you. You're trying to tell me everything is conclusively hopeless and its all DOA, and my response remains "we'll have to see." You're free to have your own opinion of a story that's not been completed, but you're not going to have mine for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I agree that familiar faces make the rescue more valuable, which I acknowledged in the previous test, I disagree in the way it was handled and it's why I suggested alternate means to get them there. In fact, them being bigged up is a point of critique - if Baine could take out 'dozens' of Maw goons despite him being basically just a large dude and no one there is any threat to Jaina and it's only the geography of the place that sets her back, the threat level is steeply reduced, and brings the whole abduction into question. If Joe Average or a B-list character were there, the plot could reasonably break them down and show us the Maw as actually threatening without making a check it can't cash in hurting characters that are immunized against lasting physical harm.
    Baine is essentially taken out in the Maw and left practically for dead, a victim of some kind of soul-draining that the Mawsworn carry out, so your example above doesn't really bear out. The Jailer seems to delight in his charges seemingly escaping from their imprisonment and then bringing them back to heel over and over, as a way of breaking them down slowly but surely. In the intro scenario Jaina's says she's escaped countless times, but she's always caught and brought right back, over and over for what she said has been "countless times." It's obviously he's just toying with them in the Maw. Perhaps it's his way of judging Azeroth's possible threat level before his full-scale invasion, seeing what their most powerful exemplars can do against his methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The claim was that the leaders don't keep security around them and they pretty clearly do.
    They really don't and never have, not unless they're heading into battle or in the midst of some special occasion.

    This whole back and forth has telescoped into a rather exhausting four-sided melee, so I'm going to bow out at this point as I've got other things to attend to. But everyone is welcome to put in their own $0.02 if desired.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This just in, SI:7 and the Kor'kron have never existed. Film at 11.
    SI:7 is a spy agency more akin to the CIA, and the Kor'kron guard Orgimmar and serve as the Warchief's honor guard (a largely ceremonial position). They're not tantamount to the secret service.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  7. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    SI:7 is a spy agency more akin to the CIA, and the Kor'kron guard Orgimmar and serve as the Warchief's honor guard (a largely ceremonial position). They're not tantamount to the secret service.
    I suggest you let Matthias Shaw know, he seems to have a small crisis over his failure to guard Anduin.

    The idea that any of the kidnapped people were unguarded is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  8. #1708
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, we seem to have watched a different cinematic - the chains definitely seem to effect him, and he goes from outright breaking them to near-paralysis in short order. He's winded, sure; but he had plenty of fight left in him until they sap him.
    the chains only affect him for real in the end, when he was exauste by being shot by Sylvanas norris and using his death power, he break the chains with raw strenght, he is not a parmer to be used.

    If they're draining his strength, then no, he couldn't - which is why he doesn't.
    IF, again, this is your headcanon and assuming, now the chains are just too powerful to break, drain power, silence people, can travel in the speed of light and other shenanigans, like i said, the more you try to defend they look even more obnoxious convenient.

    Um, no? You generally want to use the antithesis of a given power on someone who has that power, not the other way around
    what

    light destroy death magic, light is specially more effective against undead and death magic, the light was able to save Uther soul, it destroy the frostmourne and did other shenanigans, Anduin light power would definitly break those chains

    A creature made of fire isn't going to generally be weak against fire, as it were.
    you know a good way to end a fire? a fores fire by example? you start another fire

    if a creature is made of death magic he is more susceptible to be outplayed by someone with more death control than him, isn't like the whole point people denfed her winning against bolvar? that she got power up?
    Bolvar would've been resistant to the chains, but obviously not the point where he could no-sell them, because he evidently doesn't.
    and hus, Anduin would be
    Not completely defenseless, no; they just don't get enough time to muster a strong defense. It's called being surprised.
    its called being bullshit because they were literally in their own kingdom, they had a buddy on their side and they saw they comming so they could do something

    in orgrimmar there is literally dozens of manticores riders flying around and powerful shaman who could do something about, its not surprise is stupidity, is another plot convenience that blizzard don't think trought before doing some shit

    They're probably elite versions, and not the nameless mooks who attack you en masse.
    yeah, so convenient, who could have forseen this, those are probably high powerful elite versions that we will never see again just like he potent fel poison that we never saw again
    You also get attacked by a named Val'kyr in the Maw that it takes you, Thrall, Jaina, and Darion combined to bring down.
    and it was not herwho fished those characters

    Yes, the sky is darkening - who knows what might be happening.
    they looking at the sky darkneing in agner must be that they were pissed that the rain would wet their clotches, not that some omnious thing was happening


    It could be an omen of ill portent, it could a sudden change in the weather, it could be *anything*.
    no, it could not be anything
    Are you telling me a sudden shift in clouds and lowering temperature are enough to make you know that 2-3 Mawsworn Val'kyr are going to appear and swoop down to ensnare you in literal seconds? I don't think so.
    is enough to make you put your damn guard up and prepare to something, its not like shit like this happens all the time in a world of magic.

    Well I didn't really see at as "lame," obviously; not was it unrealistic itself.
    why would you, you already defended worse.
    Last I checked, a few people agreeing with your take didn't mean it was the truth.
    its to show im not rly alone and its not just my personal and unique opinion, besides, you defending don't make it your point right either

    so we are in impasse here i guess?
    It is entirely possible for a popular opinion to be incorrect, after all. Which isn't even to say *my* opinion is the correct one, either - it's just an opinion that seems to be in the minority, at least in this thread so far.
    majority of people that i saw is making fun to the silliness of this cinematic and how lame it is fishing people out of their cities without a problem, only 2 people are defending this that i saw, you and other dude in the 9.0 thread, but he quickly stop because he knew better when to stop to fight a lost cause

    According to you, perhaps.
    not just me, i would like to point out.

    Maybe, maybe not. All the people here who don't like it seems to be not liking it for different and varying reasons, when they have stated reasons
    we must be seeing different topics, everyone is not liking for the same reasons, how it is silly for then to kidnap the leaders without a problem in a moronic way
    What was Genn supposed to do about it? Anduin got hauled up and away before he could likely even shift into Worgen form. Unless he had a crossbow somehow hidden on his person that wasn't going to help him much.
    literally anything, dude is a goddamit werewolf, he could have jumped and break the chains, if he at least tried to and falling would be something better than this passive thing.

  9. #1709
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The way Anduin was abducted was absolutely fucking hilarious. I took the piss out of Sylvanas loyalists nabbing them away in bags like bank robbers, but two dudes popping out of the clouds, snapping him up and fleeing is basically that with the added benefit of Genn yelling at clouds.

    The fact that Bolvar's speech is 100% content-free platitudes because of Sylvanas's incomprehensible characterization is also great and so is him hailing Acherus like a taxi.

    Amazing, would watch again and have already done so.
    Makes it pretty stupid that Sylvanas didn't win the war in a stroke if two of the minions of the minion of her sugar daddy were enough to abduct Anduin or even powerhouses like Jaina and Tyrande at any time.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  10. #1710
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    SI:7 is a spy agency more akin to the CIA, and the Kor'kron guard Orgimmar and serve as the Warchief's honor guard (a largely ceremonial position). They're not tantamount to the secret service.
    the korkron are not a honor guard and ceremonial position since Garrosh took over man, they are elite guards of orgrimmar and are everywhere.

  11. #1711
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I suggest you let Matthias Shaw know, he seems to have a small crisis over his failure to guard Anduin.

    The idea that any of the kidnapped people were unguarded is absurd.
    Well it's understandable Shaw would be taken aback, but I think it's less "I wasn't there to protect him personally" and more the fact that it was an intelligence failure on his part, as in he didn't even know an attack was underway until it was far too late. Shaw's just being hard on himself, as he is demonstrably wont to be. There's no way he could've foreseen the manner of attack that came, considering it was launched from a reality he didn't even know existed in such a way.

    But again, as has been said ad nauseum at this point, Anduin wasn't unguarded - Genn was there with him. It probably wouldn't have mattered if a dozen guards had been there, either; unless there were all armed to take down an aerial assault they had no call to know was coming. Even the aforementioned gryphons probably wouldn't have changed things, especially since the mere presence of the Mawsworn seemed to spook even trained mounts such as with Reverence (Anduin's steed). Gryphons may not have even wanted to approach the area despite their master's urgings.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  12. #1712
    OK, Aucald, you have fun trying to convince yourself and us with your famous headcan... er, "speculation"... that the cinematic wasn't laughably bad. It'd be nice if you could refrain from the personal attacks and dishonest claims that all of us criticizing it somehow disagree, but you do you. Don't hurt yourself carrying Blizzard's water, or at least find a way to get paid for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #1713
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    OK, Aucald, you have fun trying to convince yourself and us with your famous headcan... er, "speculation"... that the cinematic wasn't laughably bad. It'd be nice if you could refrain from the personal attacks and dishonest claims that all of us criticizing it somehow disagree, but you do you. Don't hurt yourself carrying Blizzard's water, or at least find a way to get paid for it.
    It's fortunate that taste is subjective, I guess; I can enjoy you something you find "laughably bad" without any danger to myself or others. I also don't see any personal attacks in anything I've said, aside from saying that people are being overly critical in my view of things (both in the specific and in general) - which is just the fact of my own perspective, and I call them like I see them. Your concern for my health is heartening, as well; and rest assured I'm in no pain - just out of spare time for now.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #1714
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "It's useless no matter how you look at it" is not an explanation, nor an elaboration as it's more of the same. Northrend isn't really monitored by anyone aside from Bolvar himself, so people who are oceans away may not know about the hole in the sky without going there - which the abduction both draws attention to and is a reason tp bring them to the place where the things are happening. People in the US. for example, cannot see a super-typhoon striking Japan. So that covers that.



    That's not the Jailer's whole MO, that's mostly insubstantial speculation on your part and it isn't true for his current general, Sylvanas, whom he also didn't kill and recreate in the Shadowlands. Bolvar, however, can obviously observe it - given both his connection to the Maw and his apparent awareness of Sylvanas' plan in the opening of the same cutscene ("she will come for them all") - plus those captured had several witnesses to their capture, and like Genn quickly put 2+2 together so did they. Tack this on to the refutation of point #1 and you have a strong Watsonian reason why the abduction also happens.



    It doesn't convince *you*, and you can speak only for yourself here - your opinion is your own. I can see both why and how the leaders were unable to fight back, as they were taken by surprise and considerable force. They're capture, in my view, is no real crossing of the Rubicon of absurdity as you've attempted to shoehorn into being, as I've explained already. Orchestrating a lightning and completely successful attack like this does speak to the Jailer's acumen if nothing else, and it's pretty impressive he was able to pull it off (except in the case of Tyrande herself). It's also entirely possibly a few of the other leaders did fight back, and we simply weren't privy to it as it focused on Anduin's capture in terms of visibility. And again, you've also really failed to explain why this is less than convincing beyond just saying it over and over - or why it makes the leaders look like "dopes." It's kind of makes one wonder what you yourself might do if you were just milling about outside and two winged beings dropped down from the sky overhead and fired magical chains at you apropos of nothing. I think you're giving the leaders (or yourself) a bit too much credit and expecting them to have god-like reflexes or speed of thought, especially since the entire thing beings and ends in seconds (only enough time for Anduin to unlimber his sword).



    I would chalk this up to the perils of knowing the next chapter in a story before you've actually read the first one, as it were. I also think it's pretty far from concluded, given that to my knowledge we don't rescue them all in the opening chapters of Shadowlands, and it remains in the balance if we actually do successfully rescue them all. If you were following the narrative as intended you wouldn't know the resolution and it would be left open. I'd agree that knowing the conclusion beforehand does indeed dampen the sting or surprise of them actually being abducting, but I'd already accounted for that myself - I am unsure why you hadn't. It's pretty easy to suspend that knowledge and look at the story as it was meant to be told. Well, it's pretty easy to do that if you don't have an ulterior agenda, I suppose.



    Not really. The leaders on their rescue from the Maw give a lot of exposition as to its nature and powers, not to mention serve as plot hooks for Torghast. I mean you're right in that those roles could be fulfilled by anyone, but it makes more narrative sense to have it be about characters we ostensibly care about recovering, at least in most cases. I think rescuing Thrall or Jaina is a lot more interesting than rescuing random Ebon Knight ID #54235 or what have you. Not to mention they're also getting additional story and background (e.g Thrall's torments in Torghast and the datamined content between the Jailer and Anduin). There's story to be told there that concerns the leaders' presences.



    Sylvanas' Dark Rangers are with her, and Thrall never really travelled with the Kor'kron at his back at all times - they're an honor guard and for ceremony, and otherwise they spend their time guarding Orgrimmar as a whole. Ditto for Anduin, who we already covered above, and wasn't unguarded in the first place (not that it matters).

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, we seem to have watched a different cinematic - the chains definitely seem to effect him, and he goes from outright breaking them to near-paralysis in short order. He's winded, sure; but he had plenty of fight left in him until they sap him.



    If they're draining his strength, then no, he couldn't - which is why he doesn't.



    Um, no? You generally want to use the antithesis of a given power on someone who has that power, not the other way around. A creature made of fire isn't going to generally be weak against fire, as it were. Bolvar would've been resistant to the chains, but obviously not the point where he could no-sell them, because he evidently doesn't.



    Not completely defenseless, no; they just don't get enough time to muster a strong defense. It's called being surprised.



    They're probably elite versions, and not the nameless mooks who attack you en masse. You also get attacked by a named Val'kyr in the Maw that it takes you, Thrall, Jaina, and Darion combined to bring down.



    Yes, the sky is darkening - who knows what might be happening. It could be an omen of ill portent, it could a sudden change in the weather, it could be *anything*. Are you telling me a sudden shift in clouds and lowering temperature are enough to make you know that 2-3 Mawsworn Val'kyr are going to appear and swoop down to ensnare you in literal seconds? I don't think so.



    Well I didn't really see at as "lame," obviously; not was it unrealistic itself.



    Last I checked, a few people agreeing with your take didn't mean it was the truth. It is entirely possible for a popular opinion to be incorrect, after all. Which isn't even to say *my* opinion is the correct one, either - it's just an opinion that seems to be in the minority, at least in this thread so far.



    According to you, perhaps.



    Maybe, maybe not. All the people here who don't like it seems to be not liking it for different and varying reasons, when they have stated reasons.



    What was Genn supposed to do about it? Anduin got hauled up and away before he could likely even shift into Worgen form. Unless he had a crossbow somehow hidden on his person that wasn't going to help him much.
    thanks for such good explanation.
    I wanted to do it myselft. last few pages ppl go nuts without normal reason


    ----------------




    It's obvious that Bolvar uses powers of Helm of the Domination. as soon as Sylvanas takes it off him, he loses this powers

    even before wearing Helm, Bolvar was seen lying on Throne, powerless (he was plagued, burned by dragonflame, tormented physically and psychologycally by the Lich King), how can anyone expect from him to handle even a Ghoul on his own

    he has strong will and uses Helm for power.

  15. #1715
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Knowing about vague disruptions to the spirit world is a lot more indefinite than the Maw literally showing up at your doorstep to abscond with your leaders. Not to mention that that is immediately followed up by the Jailer and his Mawsworn co-opting the Scourge and attacking the now-reeling kingdoms of Azeroth directly, an act that is probably intended to capitalize on the sudden chaos of the leaders' disappearance and hopefully disorganize Azeroth further and soften them up for the blow to come. But regardless, they still need a reason to sound the call to the action in terms of the narrative and this provides one. You're just quibbling over technicalities.
    That it's followed up by the Scourge attacking is a point in favor of my argument, not against it. Loosing the Scourge right after from Icecrown pretty much ensures attention there. My point is that the abduction narrative serves no narrative purpose, cut it and you still have a hook - Bolvar going to the leaders, saying hey, guys, Sylvanas kicked my ass, there's a giant hole in the sky and the Scourge are attacking, you can still get those characters in the Maw and you save yourself a procession of plot problems. It's not like that lacks for excitement, hell, given the reaction, it's a lot more exciting than us losing guys who've already got too much attention.

    I don't really think the faction leaders were meant to serve as "bait" in the manner you're referring to, so the majority of this is neither here nor there. Since the Jailer didn't really know we would have to come to him directly in the manner we do, it stands to reason that his goal in bring the faction leaders to him is something else, we just don't know what that is yet. All things being equal I'd agree the smart move is to kill them, but we already know isn't going to do that - we just don't know why (yet). I presume there's something he wants from them, something that posits they be more or less alive, but as I said before I don't know what that is (yet). I'd agree it's an aspect to the story they need to tell, and I'll be annoyed if they don't - but it's a story that is obviously going to be in the future if it is at all.
    As said, the only object of mystery here who is likely to have a real plot later is Anduin. Everyone else gets cut loose within the questlines. It could be done like Bolvar alludes to destabilize the factions but again, this would not nullify the endless advantages to just killing them instead, which we agree on. I am willing to be optimistic when it comes to Anduin because there's a reason other than pandering for him to be there since he actually stays in the Maw long term and he's also the only one who's being there serves some kind of purpose - when Bolvar looks for him, he draws the Maw closer, ergo, the Jailor extracts some benefit from keeping him alive since if he were dead he'd not be rescuable. The others not so much.

    4-5 people aren't really equivalent to "the average forum-goer," either. A nation's worth of military won't help you against an enemy who can pop out of the sky above you and nab you in moments, just like it wouldn't help you if an assassin snuck into your room at night and poisoned you while you slept. Your defense of this thus far has struck me as rather farcical, as you paint it like everyone from Baine to Anduin would be travelling with an entire regiment of sharpshooters at their back at all times, even while in the assumed safety of their own capitol without an imminent threat to be had. It's pretty much hyperbole, pure and simple. And it's not as if Anduin doesn't try to defend himself, either; he doesn't unsheath Shalamayne for nothing after all, but he's simply outplayed in this scenario. And as I said to Sygfried in my reply to him, you're assuming the Mawsworn sent to capture the leaders are all mooks, when you have no idea if they are. There's a named Mawsworn Kyrian in the intro scenario powerful enough to require the combined efforts of the Champion, Thrall, Jaina, and Darion to drive off.
    Go to any given forum or copy of the video and you'll see what I mean. As @bagina points out it was largely found funny and you yourself acknowledged it wasn't very good. The overarching opinion is that it failed. Now, the majority can be wrong, but it can also be right especially in an instance where broad swathes of people from very different positions and interests in the lore agree on what the issues are. Everything said when it comes to the presence of the guards doesn't require a contingent of troops, that's a strawman, it requires an acknowledgment of these being defended places and of the abilities of both parties. I already told you how I'd do it, incidentally solving the issue of thinking those being assumed to be mooks - Anduin looks up, gryphon riders go up to engage, get fried in a few frames, then he gets chained and nabbed or maybe he tries to cast but we see the glow in his hand fade from the chain, implying its silenced. None of these are hard things to do - it's not difficult to get the scene's point across, it just doesn't do so.

    They don't come out unchanged, though; they're very obviously scarred and depleted by their experiences in the Maw. You've simply decided it has no pay off without any kind of real analysis, and I don't really agree with your conclusions. And again, killing them may not have been in the Jailer's interest or his goal. People have been critical, sure, but that by no means implies that they're ultimately right considering we still don't know the full shape of the story. Even I'm only speculating based on patchwork knowledge, same as you. You're trying to tell me everything is conclusively hopeless and its all DOA, and my response remains "we'll have to see." You're free to have your own opinion of a story that's not been completed, but you're not going to have mine for me.
    Jaina quite literally is only taxed in any way at all because the door is locked. Otherwise she's running the assorted Maw minions over. Baine and Thrall who are generic, but skilled warriors by this stage are also cast as being very successful against their captors. Hell, Jaina sounds more mildly annoyed than anything else as she ices another set of goons. Their story in the Maw is concluded and was concluded at the time of writing as well. They could hypothetically be haunted by it later, but let's face it, if getting beat up by the PCs didn't stall her step some fodder definitely won't. The one open plotline is Anduin's and it's also the only one that has consequences because by imprisoning him wherever he did, the Jailor taunted Bolvar into further opening up the Maw.

    Baine is essentially taken out in the Maw and left practically for dead, a victim of some kind of soul-draining that the Mawsworn carry out, so your example above doesn't really bear out. The Jailer seems to delight in his charges seemingly escaping from their imprisonment and then bringing them back to heel over and over, as a way of breaking them down slowly but surely. In the intro scenario Jaina's says she's escaped countless times, but she's always caught and brought right back, over and over for what she said has been "countless times." It's obviously he's just toying with them in the Maw. Perhaps it's his way of judging Azeroth's possible threat level before his full-scale invasion, seeing what their most powerful exemplars can do against his methods.
    The last part is pretty much the only explanation that'd make the Jaina situation somewhat bearable. Have the Sisyphus situation be her against phantasms, always on the verge of getting out, but not qutie managing. It is however, as with most explanations discussed in this thread not actually in evidence from the story itself, it's all post-factum explanation. From what we can see she's not psychologically encumbered in any way from all this, she's more annoyed that she isn't being let out, not that anything there is a threat to her. As for Baine, his stint in Orgrimmar took him out for a patch, he's already chilling on the stairs in Oribos with Thrall by the time we let him out. We also aren't given any insight into these characters through the process, though I reserve my judgment on Thrall.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-16 at 11:09 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #1716
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Alliance has airships, if a ground assault failed because of the Blight Anduin could've just as easily called in the air support to bombard Undercity from above. Jaina showed up at the 11th hour and made that unnecessary, though. Again, the Blight didn't really kill the Alliance in any great numbers, either. Just forced a retreat from the field and ended their ground assault for a time. Could you call it a tactical blunder? Sure, I suppose; Anduin should've known that Sylvanas wouldn't care a whit for her own forces - but he's also naïve and idealistic, so that was realistic enough for him as a character. Anduin always underestimates what lengths tyrants and the truly evil are willing to go for power or victory, it's kind of what makes him Anduin.
    No airship was present during the entire siege, could you call it a tactical blunder, are you serious? From any tactical standpoint the whole battle was downright retarded from start to finish on both sides, if his outlook makes it impossible for him to understand what his adversaries might do and he does not plan accordingly, he is unfit to command.

    In war always expect your enemy to go after your civilians and use any means necessary to win, in essence be prepared for as many possibilities as you can, that is how wars are waged. Anyone who disregards such basic rules of warfare is an idiot.

  17. #1717
    Superdickman&Syegfryed Vs Alucard is netflix series good .

  18. #1718
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    Superdickman&Syegfryed Vs Alucard is netflix series good .
    It is interesting seeing the defense/offense of a silly ending to a cinematic go for so long. I personally don't get the need for essays to prove or disprove anything regarding the ending of the cinematic. Its plain as day or just agree to disagree and move on. Just a weird place to draw a line in the sand.
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-10-16 at 11:54 AM.

  19. #1719
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No airship was present during the entire siege, could you call it a tactical blunder, are you serious? From any tactical standpoint the whole battle was downright retarded from start to finish on both sides, if his outlook makes it impossible for him to understand what his adversaries might do and he does not plan accordingly, he is unfit to command.

    In war always expect your enemy to go after your civilians and use any means necessary to win, in essence be prepared for as many possibilities as you can, that is how wars are waged. Anyone who disregards such basic rules of warfare is an idiot.
    Well, realistically speaking he probably is unfit to command, at least by our standards - he's a kid with zero experience commanding an army guided by other figures with little to no experience (most of whom are rulers due to family lineage and not merit of any kind), except perhaps Tyrande who wasn't present. But then you're also arguing from realism in the context of a fantasy video game, so you're probably going to have to relax a few standards from the get-go.

    Real world military experience is also replete with goofs, blunders, and ill-advised tactical decisions from the Charge of the Light Brigade to the Battle of Bannockburn to the Siege of Gibraltar. Some of them make for great dramatizations and set-pieces, as well. I'm also not really going to say Anduin isn't an idiot, because he is in quite a few ways, which is again to be expected of a young and naïve king who was promoted purely due to bloodline and not his military acumen or experience. The society of WoW is still a decidedly medieval one, despite their schizo-technology, and the people of the Alliance and Horde largely aren't conditioned to question their leaders even when they should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That it's followed up by the Scourge attacking is a point in favor of my argument, not against it. Loosing the Scourge right after from Icecrown pretty much ensures attention there. My point is that the abduction narrative serves no narrative purpose, cut it and you still have a hook - Bolvar going to the leaders, saying hey, guys, Sylvanas kicked my ass, there's a giant hole in the sky and the Scourge are attacking, you can still get those characters in the Maw and you save yourself a procession of plot problems. It's not like that lacks for excitement, hell, given the reaction, it's a lot more exciting than us losing guys who've already got too much attention.
    Not if you combine the sudden mobilization of the Scourge with the equally sudden loss of leadership for both the Alliance and the Horde, taking some of their most powerful players off the board and leaving both factions scrambling - and that so soon after the disastrous Fourth War. I mean sure, you still have a hook - no one's is really saying the abduction is *required*, but as you've said yourself several times now it raises both the stakes and the drama, not to mention also serving as a hook in and of itself (the Scourge attacks giving us no reason to journey to the Maw). Sylvanas alone wouldn't be reason for us to go to hostile territory, they'd probably opt to draw her out and attack her on Azeroth, if they were otherwise unaware of the plot going on in the Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    As said, the only object of mystery here who is likely to have a real plot later is Anduin. Everyone else gets cut loose within the questlines. It could be done like Bolvar alludes to destabilize the factions but again, this would not nullify the endless advantages to just killing them instead, which we agree on. I am willing to be optimistic when it comes to Anduin because there's a reason other than pandering for him to be there since he actually stays in the Maw long term and he's also the only one who's being there serves some kind of purpose - when Bolvar looks for him, he draws the Maw closer, ergo, the Jailor extracts some benefit from keeping him alive since if he were dead he'd not be rescuable. The others not so much.
    Anduin and Tyrande, actually. But again, the presumption is that there's a story at play here - with presumably future dividends, at least one hopes. Not to mention the story of actually rescuing the four of the leaders themselves, serving as the intro to Torghast and its environs. It'd be a means-to-end fallacy to entirely discount the narrative surrounding those events just to say "well it doesn't matter because you rescue them anyways" when that's the story being told. That's the kind of argument you could telescope out and simply say "well none of it actually matters because you'll be victorious in the end anyways," which kind of misses the point of both games and stories. It's not about the end, it's about the journey to it, to put it succinctly.

    [QUOTE=Super Dickmann;52729060]Go to any given forum or copy of the video and you'll see what I mean. As bagina points out it was largely found funny and you yourself acknowledged it wasn't very good. The overarching opinion is that it failed. Now, the majority can be wrong, but it can also be right especially in an instance where broad swathes of people from very different positions and interests in the lore agree on what the issues are. Everything said when it comes to the presence of the guards doesn't require a contingent of troops, that's a strawman, it requires an acknowledgment of these being defended places and of the abilities of both parties. I already told you how I'd do it, incidentally solving the issue of thinking those being assumed to be mooks - Anduin looks up, gryphon riders go up to engage, get fried in a few frames, then he gets chained and nabbed or maybe he tries to cast but we see the glow in his hand fade from the chain, implying its silenced. None of these are hard things to do - it's not difficult to get the scene's point across, it just doesn't do so.

    I said it wasn't great, nor was it terrible. Most of the arguments I've seen against it are the same kinds of bad faith arguments you see constantly, and that's mostly what I'm arguing against. Looking at the Wowhead thread on the cinematic I see mostly mixed responses, some negative and some positive, but no real invective to speak of. For example:

    "Love <3"
    "Wow great reaction time there Graymane lol"
    "I love the quality of their in game cinematics..."
    "Honestly even with his defeat, Bolvar is amazing to me."
    "I really like this one."
    "The Bolvar part was interesting but... Really? YOINK?"
    "If they wanted us to get hype for when we finally slit that woman's throat and put her carcass on farm, it's working."
    "Epic"
    "is it weird that I was laughing for 3 minutes straight after watching this?"

    So no, I'm not really seeing this universal condemnation you're referring to? I see some unalloyed praise, some criticism, some jokes, and some people like myself who are more middle of the road. We've already covered the rest to the point of practical exhaustion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Jaina quite literally is only taxed in any way at all because the door is locked. Otherwise she's running the assorted Maw minions over. Baine and Thrall who are generic, but skilled warriors by this stage are also cast as being very successful against their captors. Hell, Jaina sounds more mildly annoyed than anything else as she ices another set of goons. Their story in the Maw is concluded and was concluded at the time of writing as well. They could hypothetically be haunted by it later, but let's face it, if getting beat up by the PCs didn't stall her step some fodder definitely won't. The one open plotline is Anduin's and it's also the only one that has consequences because by imprisoning him wherever he did, the Jailor taunted Bolvar into further opening up the Maw.
    She sounds pretty tired to me, and her reaction to seeing what she thinks is an illusion of the Champion borders on the hysterical, so suffice it to say that we read her dialogue pretty differently. She gives the impression she's been through this many, many times; always failing to escape, and despite being to run the gauntlet successfully it ultimately doesn't matter because she just has to do it over and over, meaning that her victories always amounted to nothing in the end. Baine, for instance, doesn't even really seem to recover from his wounds as you bring back the others over time - he remains kind of exhausted and weak the entire time. All of them refer to their experiences and decide they can't even talk about it for now, which really seemed to relate how traumatic it was, above and beyond the simple inability to escape the predicament (which is itself kind of harrowing if you think about it). For people who envision hell as a kind of profane repetition of your worst moments it would be terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The last part is pretty much the only explanation that'd make the Jaina situation somewhat bearable. Have the Sisyphus situation be her against phantasms, always on the verge of getting out, but not qutie managing. It is however, as with most explanations discussed in this thread not actually in evidence from the story itself, it's all post-factum explanation. From what we can see she's not psychologically encumbered in any way from all this, she's more annoyed that she isn't being let out, not that anything there is a threat to her. As for Baine, his stint in Orgrimmar took him out for a patch, he's already chilling on the stairs in Oribos with Thrall by the time we let him out. We also aren't given any insight into these characters through the process, though I reserve my judgment on Thrall.
    Suffice it to say that your read of the dialogue and events is quite different than mine, as to me it seems like all the faction leaders we rescue have gone through a harrowing ordeal that still haunts them, so much so that they refuse to even talk about it in the short term. It also seems to have brought them even more together, a shared experience and creating a forged by fire relationship across the faction boundaries (which I also think was kind of the intent). I think the leaders will come out of this with an even stronger sense that what unites them in adversity is more than what separates them culturally, which I think is a good thing for peace and stability on Azeroth in the longer term. It will also create a tension between those leaders who were involved in this and those that were not (Genn, Lor'themar, etc. etc.), which may have dramatic payout later on as well.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #1720
    The Lightbringer DesoPL's Avatar
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    Do we actually know finally, why Sylvanas allied with Jailer, or still nothing from beta?

    As for abduction Anduin and rest. As far i don't get it, why Mawsworn has taken Thrall and Baine, i understand why Anduin. First of all Anduin is high king of alliance, so Jailer can corrupt him so alliance may lose morale to fight. Second. Sylvanas is far better tactican than Garrosh, because he could only tear and rend everything in his way. Sylvanas is much clever, because she use mental tactics to weaken enemies.

    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

    Sabaton Art Of War and Art Of War by Sun Tzu.
    Last edited by DesoPL; 2020-10-16 at 02:36 PM.
    If you are Activision fan boy. Please don't talk to me.

    I don't give a fuck, about your opinion.

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