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  1. #1741
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The truth is everyone in that comment section is one of my socks. Except the one about bowser, that one's @Feanoro.
    Shhh, dammit! We agreed not to tell!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #1742
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    Here's a thought.

    If all souls go straight to the Maw these days - why abduct Anduin/Baine/Jaina/Thrall? Why not just kill them and save the trip back to Icecrown?
    Then they can't even be "saved" as they're still dead even if we bust them out of the Maw.

  3. #1743
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Here's a thought.

    If all souls go straight to the Maw these days - why abduct Anduin/Baine/Jaina/Thrall? Why not just kill them and save the trip back to Icecrown?
    Then they can't even be "saved" as they're still dead even if we bust them out of the Maw.
    At least Metzen knew how to put a little effort into "Oh no, $LatestThreat has appeared! To arms, heroes!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #1744
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Here's a thought.

    If all souls go straight to the Maw these days - why abduct Anduin/Baine/Jaina/Thrall? Why not just kill them and save the trip back to Icecrown?
    Then they can't even be "saved" as they're still dead even if we bust them out of the Maw.
    Because they need them alive so we can conveniently save them else the plot doesn't work.

    Trans Rights are Human Rights // Elune Says Queer Rights!

  5. #1745
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Here's a thought.

    If all souls go straight to the Maw these days - why abduct Anduin/Baine/Jaina/Thrall? Why not just kill them and save the trip back to Icecrown?
    Then they can't even be "saved" as they're still dead even if we bust them out of the Maw.
    As stated in other threads. living souls have special power in the maw, and capturing them to drain them of anima is much more effective then dead souls.
    also things like the light has intervened before for uther, so killing anduin he might not end up in the maw, easier to just capture them, especially since the jailors main power is his chains.

    Easier to yoink them away then spend a fair while trying to fight them and maybe kill them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Because they need them alive so we can conveniently save them else the plot doesn't work.
    i mean we could save them if they were dead too so read above...
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2020-10-17 at 04:51 PM.

  6. #1746
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Pretty sure it was stated in the undercity siege that their only nearby airship could not get cose enough without risk of being shot down, why they used boats, hit the shore, and stormed in. i hate to break it to you but the airships are bad at going long distances. they are not very efficient.
    As evidenced by Stormwindian missions to Krasarang, Orgrimmar and Stormheim being led or heavily supported by airships.


    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    As stated in other threads. living souls have special power in the maw, and capturing them to drain them of anima is much more effective then dead souls.
    also things like the light has intervened before for uther, so killing anduin he might not end up in the maw, easier to just capture them, especially since the jailors main power is his chains.
    Oh, yes, because the Light would have so much opportunity to hijack Anduin's soul on its path to the Maw if he were to be killed in the Maw. And where is it said that draining living people of anima is more effective than dead souls, when draining souls of anima is Shadowland's bread and butter? Where do we even see living people being drained of their anima?


    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i mean we could save them if they were dead too so read above...
    Except your paragraph above doesn't say a word about saving them, dead or alive. It only talked about how it'd be efficient for Jailer to drain their anima while they were alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #1747
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    How kind of the all knowing Gatekeeper of the Lore to inform me of my opinion of WoW. Do tell, what other thoughts do I have? I can't wait to find out!

    Man, playing retail from beta through Azshara and swapping to Classic and going strong, and all this time I didn't like it. I never knew! I mean, I was a hardcore raider from MC through HFC, raid leading from MC though ICC, top 50 high end, top 200 low, following the story the whole time, and I had no idea I hated it all those years! Thank God I have some pompous ass on a forum to let me know!
    Traipsing through your post history doesn't really convey that sentiment, but if that's how it is then that's how it is. Every post I see from you is either condemnation or derision, so I kind of assumed you weren't a huge fan of the game (there's a lot of people who post here quite routinely that aren't). Mea culpa, I suppose. Nothing really "pompous" or any kind of gatekeeping, as it were, just the general assumption from your overall demeanor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    As said, we can safely dismiss any future reference to a benefit to keeping them alive as their story vis a vis their captivity has already concluded - we bust them out, that's it. A worldwide Scourge invasion is not a local event and as I brought in my last paragraph in the previous post, this was never an issue before, as this same general concept of heroes barging into the gates of hell to stop a problem is how Draenor, Outland and Legion went, sometimes successfully, in the last case less so. This isn't a revolutionary idea that Blizzard fucked up for lack of practice, they deliberately broke from an entirely functional approach and opened up plot issues in doing so. This isn't a major example of it, as already discussed, this whole gig can be dismissed, but it's one of the endless examples of how they write, namely that if they want to do a beat, they have no issue doing it in isolation of any preceding setup even if on inspection it collapses. This entire expansion is contingent on having to heavily engineer endless amounts of prior content when it comes to spirits or the afterlife to function after all. It's not that it requires suspension of disbelief, it's about having a premise regarding the Jailor and Sylvanas's modus operandi, having a plot beat you've done before - getting the characters into this new world and doing a poor rendition of it.
    We can't really conclude that, though; not unless you have some form of precognitive ability - we have the very first chapter (maybe, considering some things are still being iterated on), and the subsequent ones yet to be written. So as I said previously, you're still rushing to a conclusion based on entirely incomplete story. We *do* rescue them, but there's obviously more to their stories that you've already alluded to that we haven't seen, so plenty of time to explore probable changes and the effects of their experiences in the Maw. Like I said before, you've condemned the story basically sight unseen - so you'll understand if I approach your take on as if it were pretty heavily skewed by preexisting bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, Tyrande does go into the Maw, and had she not done so pending an attempted abduction (that we don't even see on-screen), but alongside the other characters absolutely nothing would have changed but you wouldn't have to answer stupid questions when it comes to the villains' methods. Making your villain and threat unconvincing is especially a poor call when that villain is an entirely new addition to the setting without prior hype behind him or an empty skinsuit who's already got a ton of people having issues with her without half-assing her sole appearance and contribution to the plot in all of the launch content. Jaina being able to repeatedly defeat scores of troops, be captured and then do it all again does not give the impression of them being able to effectively contain her. The lack of change on her or the others' part is readily apparent. How is Baine meaningfully different before or after? How is Jaina, short of needing a Mars Bar, changed from her experience? Not at all. You are right in the sense that what exactly happens when you kill the Jailor's troops being vague, though other lore on being killed in the afterlife suggests they pop out of existence. At least that's how it is in Bastion and Maldraxxus, who knows about the rest.
    And again, you are unconvinced, that's kind of "you" problem - not much to be done there. If Jaina is unable to escape and has her progress halted and reset at the Jailer's whim, then she's basically stuck - and she remains stuck until we throw a monkey-wrench into the equation and help free her. You're quibbling about the nature of her imprisonment, while failing to note that she's still imprisoned, stuck fast in the Maw at the Jailer's discretion. If it weren't for the Maw Walker and our ability to escape the Maw on an as-needed basis then she wouldn't ever get free. Jaina herself describes the experience as harrowing and maddening, and won't even speak of it after the fact - so you tell me exactly how that isn't supposed to be formative? You're basically shaking your head and denying the narrative even exists when it's spelled out more or less plain as day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What goal posts are there to move, you picked the video and picked out comments from it. Behold, as I do the same:

    And about a million jokes regarding Genn's call of Sylvanas and how cheesy it is. We can pick and choose sources until the cows go home, but what you'll notice with even a glance at any of the content is that the criticism made here and there are identical. They might not be wasting paragraphs upon paragraphs of text explaining why exactly it's shit, but the core points - the cheesiness, the unconvincing narration, the ease of capture and the unearned nature of the villains' victory are the same, simply far more concise.
    You're the one who implied the cinematic was "largely found funny" and generally heralded as bad, I pointed out you were wrong and you almost immediately backpedaled and implied WoWHead itself was biased in my favor, apparently? I didn't even cherry-pick responses but pulled back and mix of bad and good - meaning people liked and people disliked it, although based on the YouTube metrics it seems the response is trending favorable despite your assertions. The fact that the criticisms are similar doesn't mean anything, the praise is similar too - the fact that people parrot one another should be of no surprise to either one of us, after all. I'll even admit it's a bit cheesy myself, but then it's really just a connecting cut-scene and I didn't expect it to be a masterpiece of any kind. Like I said previously and I think you tend to forget: "memes aren't facts." The fact that someone can make fun of something doesn't imply it's bad on its face, because anything can be made fun of in the right context (or by stripping out the right context as with a lot of these "meme" jokes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I am one of the people who was deeply exasperated with Jaina's non-character arc after an amazing short that promised something much different. Especially how it left her with basically nowhere to go and the absurd power ramp up involved, but that's not the majority opinion and off-topic besides. I'd say her counterpart Talanji got a much better shake as far as BFA and associated materials went, and A Good War is probably the best thing to come out of the expansion in general. The last part is probably the most coherent argument made thus far as to why the Maw in general is underwhelming and why they made the choice to make everyone in there take on a million guys and come out untouched. It's a decision I'd deeply disagree with on a stylistic level and I'd say Legion handled the introduction of its baddie much better (only to blow it later), but who knows, Shadowlands might pan out better in the long run, since 7.0 is the high point of the Legion whereas the Jailor hasn't actually broken out by the end of the launch content.
    I like Talanji as well, though I think she could've used a bit more exploration and exposition as concerned her character in-game, especially prior to her succeeding her father as ruler of Zandalar. Her bit-pieces in Nazmir didn't really feel like enough to flesh out her character when it was really needed, though Shadows Rising has helped a bit in that regard, at least after the fact. I still don't understand where this "a million guys" thing is coming from? In the intro scenario to the Maw you find evidence Jaina had taken out a handful of minions, and the assembled squad of Jaina, Thrall, Darion, and the Champion take out a squad of Mawsworn Val'kyr that are hunting you - and it takes all of you to successfully ward off the named Mawsworn Kyrian who appears to collect the lot of you. You're vastly overstating Jaina's prowess in the Maw. I can't claim I'm super impressed by the Jailer as a "big bad" yet myself, but then I also don't think he's really done much yet to be impressed by just yet. I'm still in the wait and see stage insofar as his characterization pans out.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #1748
    Kinda late to his but I must say the hilarity of the kidnapping scene plus Genn's yelling at clouds made my day.

    I bet Sylvanas got herself tattooed with Stormwind's flight patrol shuedule all the way back in Wotlk to pull off this Prison Breakesque manouver.

    Is there anything this woman didn't plan for?

  9. #1749
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Kinda late to his but I must say the hilarity of the kidnapping scene plus Genn's yelling at clouds made my day.

    I bet Sylvanas got herself tattooed with Stormwind's flight patrol shuedule all the way back in Wotlk to pull off this Prison Breakesque manouver.

    Is there anything this woman didn't plan for?
    dont need to worry about the flight patrol schedule when the sky is filled with smog like clouds and literal wraiths dont give a shit about a couple birds.

  10. #1750
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    dont need to worry about the flight patrol schedule when the sky is filled with smog like clouds and literal wraiths dont give a shit about a couple birds.
    When it seems like it's going to rain, they go on a break.

  11. #1751
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    When it seems like it's going to rain, they go on a break.
    I cant tell if this is a joke, but flying on gryphons in metal armor during a thunderstorm is legit a quick way to get instantly killed.

  12. #1752
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I cant tell if this is a joke, but flying on gryphons in metal armor during a thunderstorm is legit a quick way to get instantly killed.
    Don't worry, it is.

    I'm just taking a piss at it because I'm of a impression that you could've achieved the same result they were going for, minus the hilarious parts, if you've just put a little bit more effort into thinking how the whole kidnapping scene should play out.

    I don't complain though, it's Anduin and it's hilarious. My checkboxes are pretty much covered.

  13. #1753
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    I cant tell if this is a joke, but flying on gryphons in metal armor during a thunderstorm is legit a quick way to get instantly killed.
    Lol, since when do real world physics apply to WoW lmao
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-10-17 at 07:15 PM.

  14. #1754
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Lol, since when do real world physics apply to WoW lmao
    Just as soon as they help white knight for Blizzard, of course!

    Otherwise, why don't the flight paths shut down during the rain?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  15. #1755
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Lol, since when do real world physics apply to WoW lmao
    Outside of magic, they kind of always have? Azeroth has gravity, the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, and lightning is just as fatal (just ask Garrosh's corpse in Nagrand). I'd imagine in terms of the lore that Stormwind's gryphon-riders probably aren't out in a storm, unless there's an known attack on the way or something.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  16. #1756
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Outside of magic, they kind of always have? Azeroth has gravity, the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, and lightning is just as fatal (just ask Garrosh's corpse in Nagrand). I'd imagine in terms of the lore that Stormwind's gryphon-riders probably aren't out in a storm, unless there's an known attack on the way or something.
    Even though I feel bad for letting you indulge my provocation at which in my opinion is poorly thought out cinematic any further, I must say that even if we take this as a lore thing, it's still funny how only Anduin's need for lamenting over his father's monument is something even a bad weather or lack of personal guards can't postpone for more convenient time.
    Last edited by Dagoth Ur; 2020-10-17 at 07:41 PM.

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Outside of magic, they kind of always have? Azeroth has gravity, the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, and lightning is just as fatal (just ask Garrosh's corpse in Nagrand). I'd imagine in terms of the lore that Stormwind's gryphon-riders probably aren't out in a storm, unless there's an known attack on the way or something.
    So "they apply except when they don't"? Okay? Magic is so strongly rooted into Warcraft's world it's silly trying to separate them. Also, Garrosh died to magically inflicted lightning strike, he wasn't hiding under a tree during a storm... And

    Azeroth has gravity, the fundamental laws of thermodynamics
    That get regularly broken? Literally every cinematic has an example of those laws being broken, not to mention, the Outland? How's that gravity for ya?

    EDIT: And yeah, how could I forget, a giant sword impaling the planet...
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-10-17 at 08:05 PM.

  18. #1758
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Even though I feel bad for letting you indulge my provocation at which in my opinion is poorly thought out cinematic any further, I must say that even if we take this as a lore thing, it's still funny how only Anduin's need for lamenting over his father's monument is something even a bad weather or lack of personal guards can't postpone for more convenient time.
    Pretty sure the implication from the cinematic is that the cloud cover was both exceedingly quick and patently unnatural. It was likely a clear day prior to the Mawsworn bringing the cover of darkness with them like a pall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    So "they apply except when they don't"? Okay? Magic is so strongly rooted into Warcraft's world it's silly trying to separate them. Also, Garrosh died to magically inflicted lightning strike, he wasn't hiding under a tree during a storm... And


    That get regularly broken? Literally every cinematic has an example of those laws being broken, not to mention, the Outland? How's that gravity for ya?

    EDIT: And yeah, how could I forget, a giant sword impaling the planet...
    None your examples here really change the essential point that magic aside, the world operates on the same basic rules. Lightning is just as lethal on Azeroth as our world, conductivity still works, gravity pulls, etc. etc.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  19. #1759
    people trying to defend the cinematic just make it more hilarious

    They didn't care to put so much thoghts in the kidnaping scene, why should we be thinking so much just to justify those things?

  20. #1760
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Pretty sure the implication from the cinematic is that the cloud cover was both exceedingly quick and patently unnatural. It was likely a clear day prior to the Mawsworn bringing the cover of darkness with them like a pall.
    Then the question of where all the guards were still remains the mystery.

    My bet is that Anduin realizes that even though he's the king he doesn't need to feel threatend walking around unguarded in an utopian city-state such as Stormwind where all the folks are so well intentioned and kind. Even more so when we take into consideration his unparalleled battle prowess.
    Last edited by Dagoth Ur; 2020-10-17 at 08:53 PM.

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