SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Syegfryed]

Some things simply are better as mysteries. Can anyone seriously claim that Old Gods are better now than they were prior to being retconned as being giant parasites flung across the cosmos on behalf of villains we've never seen?

if they made the old gods more and more lovecraft theme i would not mind at all, i think Chtulu by example is well explained, to a degree, and still is enjoyable, still put fear in the heart of people, and is powerful

Still think the big problem is blizzard dumbing down their own lore with crap explanations, before the fight the titans fought the old gods and even a titan died there, that was awesome, i would to read that more explained and detailed

but we got some crap retcons all over and some lame explanations

Mue''zala was a being of so much theories, same with bwosandi too, but hey, the devs need to do their own thing, their own legacy...

Nah, you misunderstand me. I don't really care for the Frostwolves, I'm just saying that Draka having to prove her strength in the Frostwolves means that her being in Maldraxxus, which is all about strength isn't off-base and if anything, you can make that a part of her character. Ideally, we wouldn't have to be bothering with Draka at all, but here we are.

but in the end of the day is basically that, blizzard can't remember the frostwolves are not the only orcs in the horde

As for the ancestor part, it's not so much that there's no afterlife like that, though I doubt we'll see it given how Blizzard don't give a shit about orcs except as token saddos that exist to die or as fodder, but that Draka not going to them would have an effect on her personal mindset and that gives room for characterization.

im just hopping they confirm those afterlives actually exist, the entire cosmo of post-life be just those 4 covenants is pathetic, and im not talking about pocket dimensions or lame spaces like helya and Odyn, i want "real" afterlives.

[formerShandalay]

<snip>

im just hopping they confirm those afterlives actually exist, the entire cosmo of post-life be just those 4 covenants is pathetic, and im not talking about pocket dimensions or lame spaces like helya and Odyn, i want "real" afterlives.

They already said, at Blizzcon, that there are infinite afterlives and we only happen to visit those 4 (initially). If you look at the pictures of the "sky" above Oribos, you even see doorways all over the place as far as the visibility goes, that look like the same doorways we travel to the 4 afterlives to. So those are probably the paths to the other afterlives too.

[Vakir]

if they made the old gods more and more lovecraft theme i would not mind at all, i think Chtulu by example is well explained, to a degree, and still is enjoyable, still put fear in the heart of people, and is powerful

It is impossible by its very nature to make the Old Gods semi-authentic to Lovecraft and still be a thing. By the very nature of how Lovecraftian horror works, player characters shouldn't be able to deal with direct contact with them without shitting themselves and writing on the walls using our squashed, pus-gushing eyeballs before swallowing our tongues trying to sing the melody of the end of the universe. Our sanity bar should be rapidly draining by just seeing some text from a follower of theirs in passing, not getting hit by purple energy beams.

The problem is that they didn't conceive them as such a big deal when they rolled around in Ahn'Qiraj, it was a spoopy gross thing you fought that just happened to have a pop cultural referencing name. But at least they gave them some dignity by having their voice be subtle and creepy, saying quiet uncomfortable shit without it appearing in your chat logs.

Then they decided to double down by repeating it across more settings and through more reference names, but they threw all pretense out by making the personalities more hammy and Saturday Morning Cartoon villain. Love Yogg-Saron's performance to death, but an Old God should never fucking laugh and talk themselves up.

So yeah, they're totally unsalvageable by being able to be fought at all. Frankly, I see them being brown space tumors instead of proper big bads as merciful, like taking them behind the shed and capping them like Old Yeller, since they already sucked. Maybe the Void Lords can be what the Old Gods could've been, a subtle and unknowable force of sheer terror, but I'm sure they'll fuck that up, too. It's just not the tone Warcraft goes for.

[Maljinwo]

Some things simply are better as mysteries. Can anyone seriously claim that Old Gods are better now than they were prior to being retconned as being giant parasites flung across the cosmos on behalf of villains we've never seen? Obviously not. Ditto the Titans going from aloof deities who were willing to glass a world just to be sure ot kindly father figures. Bwon and Elune now fill the same spots. Elune is better as an unexplained night elf godhead than she is as anything they could possibly explain her as, because upwards of 17 years are vested in her vagueness and favour and connection to one race.

+100000000

[tommyhil622]

You compare a medieval fantasy to modern real life.

You basically compare Teldrassil and the Holocaust on the sole basis that a lot of people died.

In reality Teldrassil was a prime military target to either occupy or get rid of in order to secure Kalimdor for the Horde.
It is called conquest.
Real life humans did this on a frequent basis while expanding their own territories to gain important resources due to the locations they conquered.

The Holocaust was an economically and racially motivated genocide against their own citizens. The most similar in-game event we have for this is Jaina purging Dalaran. Garrosh comes in a close second. But the burning of Teldrassil has nothing in common with the Holocaust.

The orcs and the night elves have been at war for years. Sylvanas played them and won.
Let's stop comparing actual real life tragedies to WoW events.

But Teldrassil wasn't a military target. It was part of Slyvannas plan to feed more souls into the Maw...

Although I get where you coming from not to compare real life, his original point still stands where it makes perfect sense for Tyrande to and Co to behave the way they do, their entire way of living was stripped from them and a bulk of the Night Elves needlessly died. We can't expect her to be happy and calm.

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More Venthyr stuff

why isn't Kel in his human form? kinda weird he went to the afterlife and stayed as undead?

[Aucald]

why isn't Kel in his human form? kinda weird he went to the afterlife and stayed as undead?

The Shadowlands seem to run on residual self-image, meaning that you appear in the way you think about yourself for the most part. Like Vashj still being in her Naga form as opposed to her original Night Elf form - she thinks of herself as a Naga, so that's how her spirit-self appears. The same is likely true of Kel'Thuzad in that he considers himself a Lich above and beyond his previous Human form.

[Rhlor]

But Teldrassil wasn't a military target. It was part of Slyvannas plan to feed more souls into the Maw...

Although I get where you coming from not to compare real life, his original point still stands where it makes perfect sense for Tyrande to and Co to behave the way they do, their entire way of living was stripped from them and a bulk of the Night Elves needlessly died. We can't expect her to be happy and calm.

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why isn't Kel in his human form? kinda weird he went to the afterlife and stayed as undead?

Because Kelthuzad never died, he can come and go from the Shadowlands as long as he has his phylactery.

[Ardenaso]

So Kel'thuzad is Kael's enemy from the past.

I mean he's literally the reason why the Sunwell was invaded and then corrupted. If anything I wish Rommath would come to the Shadowlands and be the one to finish him since they're both from the Kirin Tor

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The Holocaust was an economically and racially motivated genocide against their own citizens. The most similar in-game event we have for this is Jaina purging Dalaran.

actually the closest racially motivated genocide was the Southshore civilians literally being hunted down and then there's the concentration camp in Hillsbrad, another one is the Theramore civilians being used as target practices including women and children, and then there's the civilians being massacred in Brennadam, including children too - racially motivated. 5 Blood Elves dying in Dalaran can't even compare to this - not even to the complete massacre at Dun Garok

btw, Silverwing was massacred down to the last civilian and their corpses still litter its outskirts, same as Astranaar which was canonically implied that Lorash and the other rogues also killed the local populace.

[Kallisto]

Clearly. She allowed N'Zoth to break free, which almost doomed the entire universe, including Quel'thalas (the land that Sylvanas loved and died to protect).

Worst part is that how all of this contradicts her own internal not heard by anyone but herself and the readers thoughts. Upto and including before the storm.

In which not only was she proud to be warchief but also wanted to favour both forsaken AND blood elves because they were both her people.

This isn't her talking to someone else, this was her thoughts, her feelings. You don't become proud of being warchief if you think it is a warchief of nothing. You don't favour forsaken and blood elves if you despise and want to slaughter everyone.

So we're stuck with either there being two Sylvanas, too many cooks in the story kitchen without a captain at the helm or the Jailer is really up to something which in his mind is for the benefit of all and his group went over many moral event horizons to get there thinking that in the end the short term suffering and death of new souls since the whole wheel of death broke will bring long term benefits to all. "This world is a prison." by Sylvanas might hint at that because even I don't think that Sylvanas has 4th wall breaking deadpool powers and lore guys not knowing a character they have clearly put in a ton of investment since legion motivations.

Especially since they had the whole Lordaeron cinematic pretty much done before legion was released.

[Syegfryed]

It is impossible by its very nature to make the Old Gods semi-authentic to Lovecraft and still be a thing. By the very nature of how Lovecraftian horror works, player characters shouldn't be able to deal with direct contact with them without shitting themselves and writing on the walls using our squashed, pus-gushing eyeballs before swallowing our tongues trying to sing the melody of the end of the universe. Our sanity bar should be rapidly draining by just seeing some text from a follower of theirs in passing, not getting hit by purple energy beams.

they don't need to be the exact same thing yo, i at least don't think they need be, things could have being worked around to make things more palatable.

like, what if the old gods today were to weak because their battle with the titans long ago? similar beings of same power, they would still be semi-lovecraft beings, but since they were too weak they being defeated, or at least their avatars, would not be that much absurd.

Of course now is too late, but still, i think it would not be that terrible.

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Worst part is that how all of this contradicts her own internal not heard by anyone but herself and the readers thoughts. Upto and including before the storm.

In which not only was she proud to be warchief but also wanted to favour both forsaken AND blood elves because they were both her people.

This isn't her talking to someone else, this was her thoughts, her feelings. You don't become proud of being warchief if you think it is a warchief of nothing. You don't favour forsaken and blood elves if you despise and want to slaughter everyone. .

tbf, every single line of that seemed bullshit and forced, especially her "being proud of being the first female warchief" or some shit

this entire arc is awful, and thank god is close to an end.

[Asotcha]

Apparently yes, he did. But it seems to have been more of a comforting lie, anyway.

My read of the situation was that Bwonsamdi was able to get ahold of Saurfang and guide him to his rightful place when he passed, but wasn't able to get to Zekhan since he was in a weakened state--just barely catching him before it was too late. My 2 copper, anyways.

[Vakir]

they don't need to be the exact same thing yo, i at least don't think they need be, things could have being worked around to make things more palatable.

They don't need to be, but deviations that severe pretty much just make me think they should've been their own damn thing without lazy pop culture references. Blizzard's usually pretty reliant on going very broad with making pastiches of other works, but they really need to get better about honoring the tone of what they're aping if they choose to.

But yeah, it's done, so they get another shot at fucking it all up with the Void Lords, who will likely just be similar to Amon from SC2, who was himself Sargeras with the serial numbers filed off. Wheeeee...

[Super Dickmann]

@Syegfryed

Others basically covered what I'd say regarding the Old God situation, though being Lovecraftian in a 1 to 1 sense isn't necessary. Rather, you need to have some mystery surrounding something like that for it to be threatening, even if it's a relative mystery. The most basic thing that you can do at leasts is to depersonalize them - the Sha taunting you and plotting evil made them far more boring than their implied presence, which induced self-destruction and even had regular Old God servants turn on each other, etc. We've seen the same thing with the Jailor now and Amon in SC2 - not only are these villains extremely arch, giving them generic lines make them less interesting than if they said nothing at all, so you could project whatever motive you want on them.

Re: Draka though, the bit about Cairne meeting Baine does make me think we'll see at least one afterlife that's marginally close to the ancestor worshiping races, even if it's likely in a patch, but Draka expecting to go there and not, ergo, being separated from her husband and people in the broad sense should have a fairly major effect on her character. When it comes to the Frostwolf thing, this is really only a story that'd have meaning with a Frostwolf because knowing they value strength and advancement over other things they claim to wouldn't be a revelation or a big deal for any other orc, but might be for a person from a Clan that places a premium on other things and an orc who's backstory is based around worth past her initial strength.

Also, on an entirely different note and re: @Vakir , Yogg's voice is really generic, probably the worst of the OG ones.

[Cherry123]

damn where is sylvanas?

[Vakir]

Also, on an entirely different note and re: @Vakir , Yogg's voice is really generic, probably the worst of the OG ones.

Oh, I meant the inflection and performance. The voice itself is whatever - but that laugh.

Still not a good representation of what an Old God should be. C'Thun was the one that got it closest.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh, I meant the inflection and performance. The voice itself is whatever - but that laugh.

Still not a good representation of what an Old God should be. C'Thun was the one that got it closest.

I have a massive soft spot for Y'shaarj and legit think it came the closest to being godlike. For one thing, he's dead, which means that we don't demystify him in a fight or ever see him lose his composure, and he's presented to us mostly in terms of effect - the sha haunt the continent where he was killed for 10k years later, informing every aspect of the culture there and forcing everyone to behave in an extremely specific way lest they get bittten in the ass. His disembodied heart never threatens you, he never sounds angry, instead he just cajoles and praises you throughout and while not C'thun-tier as a voice direction, it got at least that persuasive quality down.

N'zoth's voice as a fish in the Azshara trailer was really promising, but the god-voice is really generic and him threatening you and going 'Enough' screws him over and puts him in the Yogg camp, if a little better since he at least gets beaten by God instead of by 20 of us whacking him with sticks on our way to do other, more important things.

[Vakir]

@Super Dickmann While they were only individual facets of him rather than the whole package, we're still fighting spooky shades with Fu Manchu mustaches (or maybe that's just Y'shaarj's HS card) unironically saying things like "YOU'VE LET YOUR PRIIIIIDE CLOUD YOUR VISION, TITAN PUPPET." I can give some credit where it's due that the story that surrounds it and how it has far reaching implications was better suited to making him a credible threat, but I just chalk that up to Mists being, bizarrely, one of the better written expansions. Which is not something anyone was expecting from that trailer.

The Azshara short was great, legit felt foreboding and horrific. Somehow found a way to get effective jump scares into Warcraft. You got the sense that even someone as self-assured and powerful as Azshara herself was well and truly fucked while not devaluing her credibility or agency. And then he flopped impotently for about 2.5 patches before being nuked from orbit by our golden stream. Ah well.

It's interesting - I agree with Danuser's interview on 8.3 that you don't want to put too much emphasis on the monster because it demystifies them (hi, FF7R), and this is why we can't have a N'Zoth focused expansion, or at least not anymore than Cata arguably kinda was. But at the same time, having them be a background threat that faffs about while the true connective tissue of the story is, of all things, just killing time for Shadowlands isn't much better. I guess Mists was the closest thing we ever got and the closest thing we ever will get until the Void Lords show up and probably suck harder.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I have a massive soft spot for Y'shaarj and legit think it came the closest to being godlike. For one thing, he's dead, which means that we don't demystify him in a fight or ever see him lose his composure, and he's presented to us mostly in terms of effect - the sha haunt the continent where he was killed for 10k years later, informing every aspect of the culture there and forcing everyone to behave in an extremely specific way lest they get bittten in the ass. His disembodied heart never threatens you, he never sounds angry, instead he just cajoles and praises you throughout and while not C'thun-tier as a voice direction, it got at least that persuasive quality down.

Well... At least he got in Hearthstone right?

[Super Dickmann]

@Super Dickmann While they were only individual facets of him rather than the whole package, we're still fighting spooky shades with Fu Manchu mustaches (or maybe that's just Y'shaarj's HS card) unironically saying things like "YOU'VE LET YOUR PRIIIIIDE CLOUD YOUR VISION, TITAN PUPPET." I can give some credit where it's due that the story that surrounds it and how it has far reaching implications was better suited to making him a credible threat, but I just chalk that up to Mists being, bizarrely, one of the better written expansions. Which is not something anyone was expecting from that trailer.

Oh, right, that's another benefit Y'shaarj had up until Hearthstone - being dead means you could essentially imagine his visual design. Him turning out to be a weird purple and green goatsnake with a Fu Manchu-mustache was very inspired, I'll say that much. The Sha themselves, as said above, would have benefitted immensely from having no lines, since those they did get come from the same handbook as all Warcraft villains everywhere. The likes of them and the Jailor couldn't buy a burger without telling the cashier about how futile it is to oppose them and how they'll destroy his world. Compare and contrast the effect the Sha have - say the yaungol camp you investigate to prepare for their next move, only to find them to have slaughtered each other under the grip of the Sha of Hatred or how the Sha of Fear drives the mantid into destitution and actually makes them weaker than they would otherwise be as their life giving trees collapse and many of their NPCs are panicked, to the actual Shas of Fear and Hatred who give generic one-liners about how they're bad and will definitely fuck you up. They just benefitted from implication and setting details that were for a change, actually intentional and for fitting thematically in the story in the way other Old Gods didn't. C'thun and Yogg came before themes were a thing.

It's interesting - I agree with Danuser's interview on 8.3 that you don't want to put too much emphasis on the monster because it demystifies them (hi, FF7R), and this is why we can't have a N'Zoth focused expansion, or at least not anymore than Cata arguably kinda was. But at the same time, having them be a background threat that faffs about while the true connective tissue of the story is, of all things, just killing time for Shadowlands isn't much better. I guess Mists was the closest thing we ever got and the closest thing we ever will get until the Void Lords show up and probably suck harder.

He'd be right about not being able to have N'zoth at the forefront, since given the Legion, Jailor and Arthas we can get a good idea of how that'd have went. There's nothing actually wrong about having N'zoth build up in the background culminating with Azshara freeing him and him being the last boss on the verge of achieving his plan. What there is wrong is that he's narratively off-base. He neither initiates nor concludes the story, he's just a blob that you need to clean out, so irrelevant that the whole extent of his long-term impact is a one-off line in Shadows Rising about how some dickhead's father got killed by him, completely interchangable with dying in the war with the Horde. Where the sha fit the story, N'zoth cohabits in the story, making the main plot worse through lack of focus while having no payoff on his own.

[shuubu]

A place for all the new info for lore that comes out of Beta for Shadowlands.

I'll start with some stuff that popped up thanks to Portergauge on the Wowhead discord.

If you start a thread like this you really need to keep the first post updated with the new spoilers. It's impossible to find them otherwise through all these teldrassil=holocaust comparisons and metaphysical arguments over old gods.