1. #2181
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Does anyone else feel that it is a terrible writing that Sylvanas and Kelthuzad are allies?

    I'd rather kelthuzad be a free agent unrelated to the jailer
    I feel the same way about Mueh'zala. He should've just been an evil version of Bwonsamdi, not another Jailer mook

    They could've made an ENTIRE pantheon of Death-themed Loa too, but nope
    Last edited by Bwonsamdi the Dead; 2020-12-07 at 02:39 AM.

    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  2. #2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I feel the same way about Mueh'zala. He should've just been an evil version of Bwonsamdi, not another Jailer mook
    I concur! in this expa they all seem to be servants of the jailer and that takes away from the originality of the characters.

  3. #2183
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Does anyone else feel that it is a terrible writing that Sylvanas and Kelthuzad are allies?

    I'd rather kelthuzad be a free agent unrelated to the jailer
    Is it really? What about the Valkyr? They served Arthas directly and Slyvannas accepted them with open arms, even trusted them.

    I do wish that Kel was on his own

  4. #2184
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Is it really? What about the Valkyr? They served Arthas directly and Slyvannas accepted them with open arms, even trusted them.

    I do wish that Kel was on his own
    it was kel'thuzad who told arthas to attack quel'thalas to use the sunwell.

  5. #2185
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    They made the thumbnail look like she's sitting on his lap like he's santa

  6. #2186
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I concur! in this expa they all seem to be servants of the jailer and that takes away from the originality of the characters.
    Well I mean the Jailer is the primary cause of the expansion or makes sense everything leads back to him. Plus if one of the covenants was chasing an enemy unrelated to the Jailer (quest are the Drust confirmed to be his allies?) Then they'd feel disconnected

  7. #2187
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    it was kel'thuzad who told arthas to attack quel'thalas to use the sunwell.
    Would she even know that?
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  8. #2188
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    "Genocide" is a modern word too, didn't stop them from using it. Wait, that was Golden too. It was even used inaccurately.
    I don't think the medieval period had words for power cores, laser, robots, helicopters, mechs, airships, planes, sniper rifles, dimension ships but I might be misremembering.

  9. #2189
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Or they are probably making their move already. The cosmos is such an endless place, who knows what Xal'atath is up to. For all you know, there's a Void Titan in the making while the player wastes time fighting some overconfident vampire fool.

    After all, it was never said that there's only one World Soul left in the universe, right?
    There may be existential threats from the Void manifesting in the material realm, but it's unlikely it's a Void Titan. If this were the case, the Legion would have likely discovered it during its crusade, and Sargeras would have dropped everything and destroyed it before it could develop into a threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Yeah, it's such bullshit.
    The problem is that it's the only way that Kel'thuzad actually works in the story. He was never a self-motivated villain, he wanted to study necromancy to aid in future wars against the Orcs and save his people; however, he was forced into service by Ner'zhul, and is likely in a similar predicament with Zovaal.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  10. #2190
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Did Blizzard say anything about a realm of Order? The Titans are born in reality itself, unlike the denizens of other cosmic powers. We know there's a Void, the Twisting Nether housing the Fel, a realm of Light, and the Shadowlands housing Death, but no mention is made of any Order realm.
    Pretty sure they did. Think it was in the same interview when they were talking about the Old Gods returning to their masters in the Void.

  11. #2191
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I felt the same way about Rastakhan. He's been mentioned since the beginning of WoW, and they killed him off after one single patch
    Rastakhan's death was built up, anyone who didn't see it coming wasn't paying attention.

  12. #2192
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Is it really? What about the Valkyr? They served Arthas directly and Slyvannas accepted them with open arms, even trusted them.

    I do wish that Kel was on his own
    Kel'thuzad has a history with Sylvanas that the Valkyr do not.
    Her home was destroyed and desecrated to bring about his rebirth.
    He was lieutenant of the forces which she was forced to serve under.
    When she was close to having her revenge against a weakening Arthas, Kel'thuzad stopped her and made it so she would never have another chance.

    Kel'thuzad is either tangentially or directly responsible for a lot of Sylvanas' anguish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Pretty sure they did. Think it was in the same interview when they were talking about the Old Gods returning to their masters in the Void.
    Yes, in the Taliesin and Evitel interview with Danuser (40:00~), he specifically notes that the Shadowlands is only for mortal races, but races like Titans and Demons go somewhere else (i.e.: Danuser tells you to project what happens when a demon dies onto the other "magical" races).
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  13. #2193
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Would she even know that?
    kaelthas now

  14. #2194
    So I've been thinking about how KT managed to avoid Revendreth and go to Maldraxxus and it made me remember this Sinstone from the beta that was cut:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lord_Valthalak_(sinstone)
    Lord Valthalak
    Warlock and necromancer of renown, Lord Valthalak broke with typical draconid traditions, unwittingly altering his soul in such a way that it was primed for redemption in Revendreth.

    His knowledge of the veil and manipulation of the dead would be of value to any number of realms should he be wise enough to overcome the burdens his soul brought with him.
    I feel like this cut this to give the idea of "altering your soul to change destinations" to KT instead.
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  15. #2195
    Bloodsail Admiral tommyhil622's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    it was kel'thuzad who told arthas to attack quel'thalas to use the sunwell.
    I'm aware, but she hates Arthas not because of the sunwell, but because of her state of undeath that he layed upon her.

    She hated Arthas above all else, and the Valkyr were his own. Again i don't see the big deal here. It's not like he and Slyvannas are going to lunch dates...

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    Quote Originally Posted by valax View Post
    They made the thumbnail look like she's sitting on his lap like he's santa
    LOL! that's hilarious

  16. #2196
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    Rastakhan's death was built up, anyone who didn't see it coming wasn't paying attention.
    How so? Because of Talanji?

    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  17. #2197
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Kel'thuzad has a history with Sylvanas that the Valkyr do not.
    Her home was destroyed and desecrated to bring about his rebirth.
    He was lieutenant of the forces which she was forced to serve under.
    When she was close to having her revenge against a weakening Arthas, Kel'thuzad stopped her and made it so she would never have another chance.

    Kel'thuzad is either tangentially or directly responsible for a lot of Sylvanas' anguish.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, in the Taliesin and Evitel interview with Danuser (40:00~), he specifically notes that the Shadowlands is only for mortal races, but races like Titans and Demons go somewhere else (i.e.: Danuser tells you to project what happens when a demon dies onto the other "magical" races).
    Looked it up an hour ago. But thanks for the citing. Helps the other guy know what's up, at least.

  18. #2198
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    The hype level would be through the roof if we hadn't even seen him yet. Remind me, when did Sargeras appear on screen?

    The thought process seems to have been "we're introducing a new villain, so we need to show him to the players right away!" But it's the opposite: it's because players already knew all about Arthas that you could shove him in their face in Wrath. The way you introduce a new character is by actually telling a proper story with a proper build-up.

    Even if you kept the same mediocre visual design but didn't release the model until 9.3, people would be way more into it because at that point they want to find out what he looks like.
    Yeah, I'm ok with Jailer's design (and motives, even though they seem to be some basic "I'm evil, C O N S O O M" stuff), but honestly every second cinematic/cutscene shows him explaining his plans. We're seeing him way too much, a threatening presence would have been a lot more impressive. Someone this threatening, old and powerful shouldn't need to drag his plan all around our faces every time he sees something. "Interesting! This guy uses light power and is powerful, let's make him our weapon, bla, bla, bla" was a complete waste of time and useless information for him to give anyone. He should have done what he wanted to do, just for us (PC) to discover that when it's too late, or by chance.

    Even despite his basic motives, he could have been a great villain. But no, basic-level villain telling everyone about his plans, so we'll hear about them and will be able to stop them. Now I'm expecting the Jailer to show Sylvanas his weakness, in front of someone we'll rescue later on, that'll be cherry on the cake for this "stupid villain" travesty.

  19. #2199
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    The hype level would be through the roof if we hadn't even seen him yet. Remind me, when did Sargeras appear on screen?

    The thought process seems to have been "we're introducing a new villain, so we need to show him to the players right away!" But it's the opposite: it's because players already knew all about Arthas that you could shove him in their face in Wrath. The way you introduce a new character is by actually telling a proper story with a proper build-up.

    Even if you kept the same mediocre visual design but didn't release the model until 9.3, people would be way more into it because at that point they want to find out what he looks like.
    Agreed, hell, it'd make more sense too, in the cutscene he was still locked up, so why he's wandering around. If he didn't physically appear at all and didn't say anything, his main presence in terms of gameplay effect on the player would be the Maw Eye of the Jailer effect, so you'd get the impression of someone who can passively kill you when he gets a handle on where you are. This, plus the allusions to him by NPCs all sell this big bad dude, but he ruins the effect.

    Disagreed on the visual design though, being just a guy kills it and kind of runs into the other problem he has. The game can't decide if he's meant to be a humanized baddie or a larger than life figure and being Warcraft it can't do both and do them well, see Kil'jaeden. If the former, the family drama and human appearance are relevant for selling him as someone capable of emoting, but then why the overwrought villain speak? If the latter, nothing kills the unknowable god of death angle harder than a mundane appearance spewing mundane lines.

    Like objectively, he isn't actually around all that much - he only appears in the intro, in Maw textboxes and two 15-sec mini cutscenes. That it feels like he's everywhere is both good, in that it sells his presence and very bad, because the hype written around him is more interesting than the guy himself, and being reminded every day of how generic he is when we run dailies fucks up the effect.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-12-07 at 07:00 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #2200
    How cool would that be if the Jailer was some faceless hooded figure. Having a normal face
    does take away from the spookiness.

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