SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Devvra]

Wow, we're hitting the levels of complaining that cannot be even possible.

This is adding flavour and depth to the character, giving the moment of doubt when she traveled so far, too far to be redeemed, and yet for some reason she sees in Anduin her old self. This is the reason she's hesistating, she's not going to make him, because he's not fighting, he's looking into her eyes and doing "make your decision (for me)". And this is what makes her shaking inside right now.

People screaming R E D E M P T I O N are funny now.

Sylvanas cannot be redeemed, but she could be not a plain villain, but a villain with some flavour and I love it.

[Darknessvamp]

What is with the writer's and making Sylvanas suddenly having a fixation with hope? I can't be the only one who doesn't understand this motivation especially after how she went about being practical towards the Forsaken's plight rather than randomly "hoping" for solutions. Also of course Anduin has to have the biggest dick to swing around the room. Additionally I find it weird that the Jailer would reforge Shalamayne just to make it blue, shouldn't it be considered inferior to weapons capable of being forged by literal Death Gods?

Edit: I just realised they must think Sylvanas wielding Shalamayne is some kind of poetic or grand moment with how it's framed. "Oh wow look! The Jailer is making Anduin's blade stronger! Sylvanas is wielding the weapon that damaged her face but it's against it's owner! :O Who could have expected this development after that Clash outside Orgrimmar! It's Amazing!"

Wow, we're hitting the levels of complaining that cannot be even possible.

This is adding flavour and depth to the character, giving the moment of doubt when she traveled so far, too far to be redeemed, and yet for some reason she sees in Anduin her old self. This is the reason she's hesistating, she's not going to make him, because he's not fighting, he's looking into her eyes and doing "make your decision (for me)". And this is what makes her shaking inside right now.

People screaming R E D E M P T I O N are funny now.

Sylvanas cannot be redeemed, but she could be not a plain villain, but a villain with some flavour and I love it.

Sylvanas has been a villain (in regards to the Alliance) with flavour for quite some time now, the fact she has always had a stance against mind control among her people despite using it sparingly against her enemies was always an interesting part of her character. This isn't adding depth to her character, it's having Anduin prove he can break the villain because he is the Golden Boi. His mere presence erases all their conviction and invalidates their reasoning because he is right as he believes in Hope and Sylvanas doesn't believe in hope so she quails before him even in chains. This is despite her whole character and story having nothing to do with investing in or crushing hope until BfA.

[omeomorfismo]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
not even sylvanas is safe from the human potential
damn, im so happy to have deleted my character before all this shitshow

[Harbour]

Fuck off, Blizzard, redeeming Sylvanas now is like trying to redeem Hitler with him starting to have a doubt before last push after four years of killing millions people. Its dumb and infuriating and make me question arent you writers actually retarded.

[Vakir]

I'll take "anime" (which really in this context just means "low-effort shonen") if it had internal, consistent logic, but it really doesn't here. Sylvanas has already killed and turned many. She has supported efforts of others to do the same without being the only one to pull the trigger. BFA's war campaign literally culminated with the fallout of foiling a mind control-assisted assassination plot.

And more importantly, even now, her actions are serving as the impetus for a plan that robs people of their decisions and will anyway, under the guise it never mattered. That's the entire point of unmaking the cosmos. She said this shit one cutscene ago. So if she did hypothetically get Anduin to make his own decision to serve, it wouldn't invalidate that she's deciding the fate of quintillions anyway.

This would make sense if it were, like...Alleria, or Vereesa, or even any god damn Horde character that she spoke to for 5 minutes, but why Anduin? The easy answer is Creator's Pet and Christie Golden and whines along those lines, but then you have to remember that a LOT of people need to sign off on all the details that go into this one cinematic.

This isn't even cliche shonen, because even mid-tier anime has internal consistency with its corn and cheese.

[Orby]

If they are gonna redeem Sylvanas I am done. Well technically I been done for the last two weeks, but I have been thinking heavily on my future with WoW after nearly 30 years of this franchise (and since 2005 for WoW), and I swear this may be the straw that breaks the camels back.

If they go full Kerrigan on her, (and they might) because Sylvanas still has quite a good loyal fanbase, Blizzard could be afraid to kill her off (No that it stopped them with Varian), then I might actually call this my end with the Warcraft franchise. Please dear god do not do it... Anduin doing this whole 'I understand you stuff' not a fan. I tolarated it only just after WoD thinking they wouldn't do this again :P

[bagina]

I'll take "anime" (which really in this context just means "low-effort shonen") if it had internal, consistent logic, but it really doesn't here. Sylvanas has already killed and turned many. She has supported efforts of others to do the same without being the only one to pull the trigger. BFA's war campaign literally culminated with the fallout of foiling a mind control-assisted assassination plot.

And more importantly, even now, her actions are serving as the impetus for a plan that robs people of their decisions and will anyway, under the guise it never mattered. That's the entire point of unmaking the cosmos. She said this shit one cutscene ago. So if she did hypothetically get Anduin to make his own decision to serve, it wouldn't invalidate that she's deciding the fate of quintillions anyway. To say nothing of the

This would make sense if it were, like...Alleria, or Vereesa, or even any god damn Horde character that she spoke to for 5 minutes, but why Anduin? The easy answer is Creator's Pet and Christie Golden and whines along those lines, but then you have to remember that a LOT of people need to sign off on all the details that go into this one cinematic.

This isn't even cliche shonen, because even mid-tier anime has internal consistency with its corn and cheese.

Right. Anduin's suddenly a master at psychoanalysis, spelling out Sylvanas' own feelings to her (and the audience) with pinpoint accuracy. Sylvanas' reaction rings absolutely hollow and it's so jarring. At this point, acting wishy-washy is just embarassingly ooc for her. The fact that it's him delivering the speech makes it so much worse, there's no reason why would Sylvanas heed his words specifically, it's purely to make him look good. I agree, it should've been one of her sisters, just about anyone else would make this whole thing less painful. There are ways to redeem Sylvanas, this is not the way.

This is insulting to Sylvanas

[Devvra]

This isn't adding depth to her character, it's having Anduin prove he can break the villain because he is the Golden Boi. His mere presence erases all their conviction and invalidates their reasoning because he is right as he believes in Hope and Sylvanas doesn't believe in hope so she quails before him even in chains. This is despite her whole character and story having nothing to do with investing in or crushing hope until BfA.

What makes Arthas sometimes crazy and obsessed about Sylvanas was, as Kel'Thuzad stated, the fact that she was a mirror image of himself - proud, honorable, person people believe in, person people hope for. She failed in their way, as Rhaegar Targaryen did, as the honorable always fails. She gave this cruel lesson to Night Elves, because she is trapped in her past and everytime someone is reminding her of her old life is making a point that makes Sylvanas suffer.
But Delaryn wasn't Anduin. Why?
Anduin isn't a golden boy, although his role is seemingly important to be a mirror image. Delaryn was reminding her of her previous life, but in Anduin she sees herself from old, the Ranger General who didn't have a choice. She starts to see herself as Arthas (at last!) and she isn't really fond of it. Anduin was her true rival, yet the rival she was so similar to her that she couldn't resist but to comply with him, even unwillingly.
Anduin is looking in her eyes, not begging, not taunting, but clearly speaking words she could speak too in his place if she was still alive. She's not. She crossed the point of no return. She won't be Ranger General anymore. She won't be a hero. She won't be redeemed.
But she can do a two steps back and help him, sealing her fate. That won't make her person everyone loves, it still makes her villain, but a tragic one, one that couldn't let go of the past, even trying so hard, but the past is looking in her eyes.
Sorry, I am a literature teacher, I have something with these analysis. You're free to disagree though!

[Mehrunes]

Golden god-boiking strikes again. This is just repugnant at this point. Do they need Anduin because his holy bones allow him to mind-control anyone around him without him even realizing it? Are they going to use him to mind control the First Ones/whatever entity is hidden in the Sepulcher in order to reshape the cosmos? Because this is what's the only conclusion this trainwreck hints at that doesn't collapse on itself.

Right. Anduin's suddenly a master at psychoanalysis, spelling out Sylvanas' own feelings to her (and the audience) with pinpoint accuracy. Sylvanas' reaction rings absolutely hollow and it's so jarring. At this point, acting wishy-washy is just embarassingly ooc for her. The fact that it's him delivering the speech makes it so much worse, there's no reason why would Sylvanas heed his words specifically, it's purely to make him look good. I agree, it should've been one of her sisters, just about anyone else would make this whole thing less painful. There are ways to redeem Sylvanas, this is not the way.

This is insulting to Sylvanas

Well, someone other than Sylvanas has to explain her own feelings to her, because Sylvanas is not aware of them herself. That's why she lied to the reader even in her own internal monologues.

[Orby]

Golden god-boiking strikes again. This is just repugnant at this point. Do they need Anduin because his holy bones allow him to mind-control anyone around him without him even realizing it? Are they going to use him to mind control the First Ones/whatever entity is hidden in the Sepulcher in order to reshape the cosmos? Because this is what's the only conclusion this trainwreck hints at that doesn't collapse on itself.

Actually your beef is probably with the other writers who have more creative control on Sylvanas, like Alex Afrasiabi

People really need to stop blaming Golden like she is the sole writer of WoW. She isn't even a head writer. Afrasiabi oversees the creative direction of the franchise in the writing department (well him and I think there are a few more). ITs up to Golden and the rest of the team of writers to them put that into a story.

Some of you people here really need to learn what creative writing is.

[tommyhil622]

This is embarassing. Golden Jesus has the power to make even Sylvanas go ooc and feel guilty. After countless crimes, thousands dead no one managed to make Sylvanas second guess herself, but thank goodness Anduin did! I'm sure staying true to his lord and saviour role, he'll make her kneel down, break down in tears and confess her sins while asking for forgiveness which he'll obviously graciously grant her, because he's the holy alpha and omega.

This is Naruto level. I mean it in the worst way possible.

I get why you don't like the scene but could it be that you dont like it because Anduin is in it? And not that it's bad writing or content? I'm not a fan of Anduin either but I get what they are going for here. He's not saving Slyvanas or Slyvanas isn't feeling guilty. She's been tasked to do what Arthas did to her. I assume that's a Mourne Blade. The only difference here is what Anduin mentions. This is not the first time Anduin tries to get inside of her head. A similar convo happened back in BFA when he confronted her in the the ruins of Lorderon.

- - - Updated - - -

Im more curious about other things within the cinematic like the Jailer opening a portal to get that shard. And if they are intending to steal Anduin's soul in similar way that happened with Arthas.

[Vakir]

Anduin isn't a golden boy, although his role is seemingly important to be a mirror image. Delaryn was reminding her of her previous life, but in Anduin she sees herself from old, the Ranger General who didn't have a choice. She starts to see herself as Arthas (at last!) and she isn't really fond of it. Anduin was her true rival, yet the rival she was so similar to her that she couldn't resist but to comply with him, even unwillingly.

I get the idea on that very superficial level, but it seriously devalues every other character in the setting, let alone every other character involved in Shadowlands as a whole, to have Anduin be the sole representative of the concept of a mirror paragon. Sylvanas deprived tons of people of choice already. In regards to noble people in position of power, she already had 3 other picks of the litter. There is nothing fundamental to Anduin that justifies her seeing him as a mirror over someone like Thrall or Jaina. To say nothing of the countless souls already in Torghast suffering the same fate that she could've seen. In all the souls in Torghast, Sylvanas can't conceive someone else who was a proud and noble leader who got shafted other than the 19 year old she's had 5-6 conversations with.

The whole thing rings hollow. Anduin's there out of sheer favoritism combined with "oh, he just happens to be the plot relevant one." There is no deeper meaning than that, and Sylvanas' own actions contradict her recent crisis of faith.

[Mehrunes]

Actually your beef is probably with that other writers who have more creative control on Sylvanas, like Alex Afrasiabi

People really need to stop blaming Golden like she is the sole writers. She isn't even a head writer. Afrasiabi oversees the creative direction fot eh franchise int he writing department. ITs up to Golden and the rest of the team of writers to them put that into a story.

Some of you people here really need to learn what creative writing is.

If I were blaming Christie Golden I'd write "Golden's"... Instead I wrote Golden. Without any possessive 's suffix in sight. As in golden boy (mixed with godking). Also, given how I'm criticizing the character of Anduin and how he's poison to everything around him in the story, whoever has more creative control on Sylvanas is not really consequential to my point. Because my point was not about her. Some of you people here really need to learn that one should actually read a post they're replying to instead of replying to their distorted fantasy version of the given post.

[Lei]

Right. Anduin's suddenly a master at psychoanalysis, spelling out Sylvanas' own feelings to her (and the audience) with pinpoint accuracy. Sylvanas' reaction rings absolutely hollow and it's jarring. At this point, it's just embarassingly ooc. The fact that it's him delivering the speech makes it so much worse, there's no reason why would Sylvanas heed his words specifically, it's purely to make him look good. I agree, it should've been one of her sisters, just about anyone else would make this whole thing less painful. There are ways to redeem Sylvanas, this is not the way.

I'm not much of a lore nerd or anything but I didn't find Sylvanas OOC. She is in constant battle with her two sides. This is not the first when she let some emotion out other than rage and screaming. Usually a horrible act follows it as she "bounces back". Think Teldrassil, or the story about she meeting with her sisters or when she let meet forsaken people with their living families.
People are not machines. They do all kinds of sudden and uncharacteristic things IRL.

My problem with the story since Legion is that we are still pretty much in the dark, and they want this tension of eventual relief and old puzzle pieces falling to place to carry the story and give it epicness or whatever which it did maybe till the end of Legion but then it became really unsatisfactory to watch this mess. I feel like when I watch a series and I accidentally skip a season.

But at least the power dynamic between the jailer and Sylv is getting a bit clearer. When SLs was announced, Sylvanas looked as if she was in charge. Now, not so much. It doesn't even look like equal partnership to me. I hope this whole cinematic about choice is about her past with Arthas (as Anduin thinks) and not presently with the Jailer. That would suck. I mean Bolvar was reluctant to help because he thinks he is vulnerable to the Jailer even without the helm. How does the same affect Sylvanas who is a product of soul-ripping Frostmourne?

[Orby]

If I were blaming Christie Golden I'd write "Golden's"... Also, given how I'm criticizing the character of Anduin and how he's poison to everything around him, whoever has more creative control on Sylvanas is not really consequential to my point. Some of you people here really need to learn that you should actually read a post they're replying to instead of replying to their distorted fantasy version of the given post.

Yea I'll own up to that, my bad, but to fair its only a matter of time before someones going to start Golden bashing, its force of habit at this point :P

[Gelannerai]

The Shadowlands are free.

[Traveler Voltin]

Actually your beef is probably with the other writers who have more creative control on Sylvanas, like Alex Afrasiabi

People really need to stop blaming Golden like she is the sole writer of WoW. She isn't even a head writer. Afrasiabi oversees the creative direction of the franchise in the writing department (well him and I think there are a few more). ITs up to Golden and the rest of the team of writers to them put that into a story.

Some of you people here really need to learn what creative writing is.

alex doesnt work at blizzard anymore. he left back in June(2020)

[Orby]

alex doesnt work at blizzard anymore. he left back in June(2020)

really? then who is head creative writer now?

Might be Steve Danuser?

EDIT: Well it says 'lead narrative designer and senior game designer' So he might be head of creative?

[tommyhil622]

really? then who is head creative writer now?

Might be Steve Danuser?

EDIT: Well it says 'lead narrative designer' So he might be head of creative?

Dan is the lead narrative designer.

[Orby]

Dan is the lead narrative designer.

The creative process for any business is awful regardless, I would hate to write for video games lol. :P

Imagine having like a team of 20 writers. How do you even write a coherent story and narrative like that I'll never know, I mean I know how its done, but I hate it.