1. #2441
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Regardless it still happened, and even if we assume it is removed from canon she still broke the core tenets of the Forsaken that she herself created.
    The Forsaken are supposed to be all about free will, and yet even since Cataclysm we have seen that Sylvanas has consistently tried to enslave people or break their mind for her own gain.
    BTS might be her at peak villainy, at least until burning down Teldrassil, but even excising the part where she killed her own people in BtS she still tried to break the mind of Koltira for pursuing an armistice, and later raised Forsaken specifically without free will or at least in such a way that their mental state would prevent them from making a proper choice.
    The Forsaken create their state on the basis of mind controlling murlocs, ogres etc. unlike other races who did it by killing those. A Forsaken rando keeps a human mindslave in Vanilla, well before the Cataclysm turn and other random Forsaken praise him for his creativity. Execution or life sentences of people who try to defect to an opposing world power who recently tried to assassinate the leader of your state is, when you strip away the melodrama put into the deaths of those guys (and not, for example, the Forsaken brained by Baine's totem or the guys in the Underhold), practiced by the majority of states in the world.

    Sylvanas's consistent breaking of people's mind in Cataclysm consists of raising people with their free will at which point even in the very first zone a sizable portion defect and need to be fought against because they have enough of their minds to rebel and others leave and need to be hunted down to be convinced to join, like Voss. After that, virtually every named character she raises turns on her, be it the Gilneans or Stromgarde. If we extend it to BFA, we can add everyone else to the mix as well. Once again, more people betray Sylvanas for not doing what you allege then turn on her for doing it.

    The end to the Forsaken story in BfA, ignoring the part with Calia, seems to be the Forsaken realizing and coming to terms with the fact that the one they thought always had their existence in mind, and strove ot uphold the ideals they aspired to, was in fact always using them for her own ends.
    Why should the Forsaken at this point spin on a dime and accept her back? She has betrayed everything they are supposed to stand for.
    It's impossible to ignore the part about Calia considering she is the thing their entire identity and history are burnt in effigy over and the basis for their future identity unless Blizzard backtrack hard - the Forsaken as temporarily embarrassed living Lordaeronians. The premise of Sylvanas always having used them is firstly something the narrative already tackled better with Cataclysm, where her abandonment of them is followed by being immediately sent to turbo hell. In response, she recommits herself to their interest because it's intertwined with hers and she ends up encouraging Lordaeronian nationalism, picking up dog tags and looking for ways to preserve their race. That her actions were only to their detriment from Day 1 is also only there in the BTS version of the story, where reconciliation with humanity was always an hour and a hug from Anduin away compared to Vanilla where the existential threat to the Forsaken was an object of fact.

    Again, we're only here because of a retcon that weakens both the Stormwind and Forsaken identities and sacrifices Sylvanas on the altar of a direction not wanted by pretty much anyone who actually plays the race. To get there, every single Forsaken character prior to BFA had to not exist and the core premise of why they're even called Forsaken in the first place had to be changed to an easily fixed con, robbing the race of their agency. In turn, humans mistrusting undead or fighting to reclaim Lordaeron or even the extracting of justice for the Forsaken's culpability in endless offenses against humans is dismissed so Anduin and Big Titty Light Mommy can make them all friends. Forsaken prior to BTS turned on Sylvanas often and on different bases. Post-BTS Forsaken are dross who don't turn on her even in a situation where she's objectively pure evil and all the benefit she did to them was retroactively void. There's nothing worthwhile in this portrayal and the retcon to nix it would be both more widely approved and much easier to implement than the mess it required to bring about.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 10:29 AM.
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  2. #2442
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    ]
    It's impossible to ignore the part about Calia considering she is the thing their entire identity and history are burnt in effigy over and the basis for their future identity unless Blizzard backtrack hard - the Forsaken as temporarily embarrassed living Lordaeronians. The premise of Sylvanas always having used them is firstly something the narrative already tackled better with Cataclysm, where her abandonment of them is followed by being immediately sent to turbo hell. In response, she recommits herself to their interest because it's intertwined with hers and she ends up encouraging Lordaeronian nationalism, picking up dog tags and looking for ways to preserve their race. That her actions were only to their detriment from Day 1 is also only there in the BTS version of the story, where reconciliation with humanity was always an hour and a hug from Anduin away compared to Vanilla where the existential threat to the Forsaken was an object of fact.

    Again, we're only here because of a retcon that weakens both the Stormwind and Forsaken identities and sacrifices Sylvanas on the altar of a direction not wanted by pretty much anyone who actually plays the race. To get there, every single Forsaken character prior to BFA had to not exist and the core premise of why they're even called Forsaken in the first place had to be changed to an easily fixed con, robbing the race of their agency. In turn, humans mistrusting undead or fighting to reclaim Lordaeron or even the extracting of justice for the Forsaken's culpability in endless offenses against humans is dismissed so Anduin and Big Titty Light Mommy can make them all friends. Forsaken prior to BTS turned on Sylvanas often and on different bases. Post-BTS Forsaken are dross who don't turn on her even in a situation where she's objectively pure evil and all the benefit she did to them was retroactively void. There's nothing worthwhile in this portrayal and the retcon to nix it would be both more widely approved and much easier to implement than the mess it required to bring about.
    Yousay it yourself though, Sylvanas only recommits herself to the Forsaken because their goals align with her, and despite that the Forsaken have a weird bult of personality around her.

    The Forsaken are already a race that has the agency of a barrel of moldy onions, I don't think having them change moral alignment again just to fall back into step with Sylvanas makes that better.


    It's still a case where her getting redemption from the Forsaken would require both for the most recent development to their race to be retcconned, which though it might be welcomed by the Forsaken community would also forever make the Forsaken race out to be schizophrenic and completely lacking in moral compass.
    How are anyone supposed to take the Forsaken seriously if they accept Sylvanas back? Their entire story would then logically be an endless string of wondering when they are next going to have a collective brainfart and be evil again.


    A Sylvanas redemption owuld essentially require Blizzard to retcon her entire story from MoP onward, and I simply cannot see that happening.
    Saying that I could see it happening, I just really don't want Blizzrd to shoot themselves in the foot over this again.
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  3. #2443
    So... Sylvanas is just an unstable teenager who cannot deal with her fate and now she's playing the victim card.
    With all of her planning and sneakiness... she was just a toy, used by the Jailer.

    Hahahaha


    What an unbearable character she has become.

  4. #2444
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Yousay it yourself though, Sylvanas only recommits herself to the Forsaken because their goals align with her, and despite that the Forsaken have a weird bult of personality around her.

    The Forsaken are already a race that has the agency of a barrel of moldy onions, I don't think having them change moral alignment again just to fall back into step with Sylvanas makes that better.
    Yes, she recommits herself to them because otherwise she'll die and then works to benefit them. As a result of this, they gain a better view of themselves, restore most of the territories they had while alive and avoid being destroyed. She panders to their holidays and background and even what she used them on was something they all wanted to do anyway - i.e killing Arthas. The fact that their relationship was co-dependant and the personality cult was an in story tool rather than all racial members being in lockstep with the leader for inexplicable reasons was to the race's benefit and the fact that they did actively benefit from her leadership is also readily available.

    The latter is demonstrably wrong - more Forsaken turn on Sylvanas while she was still a protagonist than do the members of any other race to their racial leader and on more varied grounds. Those being just being evil (Putress), perceived weakness over her letting Crowley go and holding to her word (Godfrey), the amorality of her experiments with Old God blood (Darkmar), general amorality (Judkins) or the idea of raising undead with free will at all (Stillwater). You know how many tauren oppose Baine and aren't pure evil? Nill, they're all Grimtotem. You know how many Forsaken turn on Sylvanas in BFA, where all of the above no longer applies since she delivers no benefit and they live in a parodic police state? One, and he's a Kul Tiran. Back when Sylvanas was actually directly tied to them, the threat to them was real and she delivered a benefit, a major component of Forsaken questing were the renegades involved. When she turns into a Bond Villain, they all turn into meek sheep. Incidentally, all of those people were perfectly able to imagine their lives without her and fought against her no problem, they didn't wait for humans to go fix them up. One of these portrayals have agency and internal existence, and one doesn't. I think you can figure out which.

    It's still a case where her getting redemption from the Forsaken would require both for the most recent development to their race to be retcconned, which though it might be welcomed by the Forsaken community would also forever make the Forsaken race out to be schizophrenic and completely lacking in moral compass.
    The Horde's motive throughout the war in BFA changed freely depending on the scene and the convenience of the plot. Sylvanas had her internal monologue and stated motives changed four times in as many years. The retconning of undeath that BTS is heavily based on is contradicted by the new Four Horsemen story. What matters is the settled characterization is a worthwhile one that produces more drama. Jaina went on an entire journey to go back to where she started to raucuous applause. All that is really required is to say the BTS society changes were a very recent thing instead of always having been the case. Then you can have humans be angry about letting the Forsaken go given everything they did of their own volition, something that they should be doing either way. Finally, you can have whatever Sylvanas does be interpretable as a benefit of the race, which is as easy as emphasizing how in raising them they didn't get depersonalized in the afterlife or whatever or going the route of many rehabilitated rulers in real life where they'll go "she did 60% good and 40% bad" and carry on, given their entire state structure, survival and position are things done under her reign. None of this requires Sylvanas to survive or return, only that her motives are viewed positively by the race and that the other races involved act like how they should be acting anyway.

    As for the redemption itself, the silver lining outlined above aside, I agree with @bagina that it also fucks up the character severely by making her a dupe who did terrible things on behalf of someone she has no reason to trust on the basis of beliefs she evidently didn't feel too strongly given that a conversation with Anduin might sway her, but her sisters, lover etc. can't pull it off. It's why I support her being an end boss.
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  5. #2445
    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    This is the absolute opposite of what is true.

    She does what she's doing because it's what she believes her purpose in life is. That's why she threw himself off Icecrown when Arthas died, her purpose in life had gone.
    She now self-reflects on her enslavement with Arthas and believes everyone should follow the same path, and that's to live without choice.

    If anything, she's self-reflecting a bit too much for everyone's liking. Hence why when Anduin mentions her days as the Banshee Queen or the Ranger General she starts to crack up in both cinematics now.

    When she realises Kel'Thuzad is an ally of the Jailer and was instrumental of the forging of Frostmourne(retcon) She will realise she's allied with the orchestra of her living a life without choice.

    It's 1000000% a redemption atc.


    As the above poster wrote while I was typing which I thought which was clever, it's very much a Kerrigan story from SC2.
    I'm not arguing whether or not it's a redemption arc. That's beside the point. The thing is, it's a little too late for her to start having moments of self-reflection NOW. Because it makes her convictions and resolve seem paper-thin. Because it took one (1) speech from some guy she barely knows and cares about to make her visibly agitated and to display some degree of hesitance. He got under her skin and appealed to her conscience with minimum effort. He seemingly uncovered facts about her that she wasn't aware of herself. It took SO little to sway her. What does that tell us? That during years and years of methodical planning and scheming, countless sacrifices and bloodshed she hasn't once stopped and thought about what she was doing. Even though Garrosh himself compared her to the Lich King to which she replied with a quip. Which should be proof enough of her self-awareness. She's been likened to the Lich King by other characters many times before. But no, all that apparently was her running on autopilot. She forgot all that. Not even her own family managed to get through to her, people who she died for in the first place, no. A random human boy with a heart of gold went "no u" and short-circuited her.

    A distrustful, overthinking individual that keeps everyone at arm's length suddenly lacks basic critical thinking skills and puts her full trust in an entity that defies trust by default. She's been shown to be wary of less suspicious people but the guy with the big neon sign over his head that says "LITERALLY SATAN" is okay. Nope, no ulterior motives there. He's 100% swell guy. She's supposed to be smart in-universe yet she can't put two and two together, something that literally anyone would be able to do. Apparently she didn't notice Jailer's the reason she's undead in the first place, and his entourage consists of her former enemies. If she acts surprised at Kelthuzad working with Zovaal that'll only be another blow to her now near annihilated character. Why would she even care what happens to Anduin if it's a necessary step in creating a better reality. She's always been pragmatic. It means she doesn't even believe it herself, she's being wishy-washy. A character who doesn't believe in their own cause doesn't inspire sympathy. Worst part? She's not even his partner, she's his errand-girl, a goddman lackey that does and repeats anything the boss says. Why good old "I'm not anyone's servant" Sylvanas would be okay with this arrangement, I don't know.

    Which brings me to the conclusion that, and I say it with a heavy heart, she's being controlled one way or another. Which I absolutely detest. This strips her of agency, removes her accountability and pushes the blame onto someone else. It leaves her an empty husk. Super Dickmann very eloquently explained this angle in his recent posts. Either she'll break free from Jailer's control, back-stab him and try to do what he was trying to do her own way, or she'll break free and be sorry "it wasn't her" which would be awful, or she'll just die a reluctant minion.

  6. #2446
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, she recommits herself to them because otherwise she'll die and then works to benefit them. As a result of this, they gain a better view of themselves, restore most of the territories they had while alive and avoid being destroyed. She panders to their holidays and background and even what she used them on was something they all wanted to do anyway - i.e killing Arthas. The fact that their relationship was co-dependant and the personality cult was an in story tool rather than all racial members being in lockstep with the leader for inexplicable reasons was to the race's benefit and the fact that they did actively benefit from her leadership is also readily available.
    Just quickly to finish tthis thread of discussion.

    Not to try and make the discussion too loaded, but in many ways the story of the Forsaken and Sylvanas can be likened to a toxic relationship. Sylvanas did some good things for the Forsaken and many bad things. And despite all this the Forsaken absolutely adored her as evidenced by their Sylvanas banners and mentions of the "Dark Lady" as some reverent figure.

    In BfA this story came to a head when Sylvanas strained the trust of their relationship beyond its breaking point. There was much the Forsaken could accept, or at least vaguely tolerate. But when Sylvanas had destroyed their city (because of Alliance attacks or not), led them into a costly war, vilified teh Forsaken as everything they tried not to be after Arthas, and indeed if not actively trying to kill them, at least being implicitly perfectly okay with N'zoth killing them.
    After all that they were finally free of her. They might not immediately know whether this is for the better, and certainly there are many shown that take the rejection of their leader personally and far too heavily. But they are free of her to make of their existence what they will, free of the influence of someone like Sylvanas.

    In the game this is framed as a wholly good turn of events, and I really don't see how turning it back would help the story much if at all.

    You, or other Forsaken players might not necessarily agree with the turn of events, but the story decided to take a fairly sharp turn in excising Sylvanas from the Forsaken and leaviing their story open. Simply adding Sylvanas back, even if it is with good justification, would make the Forsaken worse off as a while I would think.



    But in the end I guess we have to see. If Sylvnaas indeed turns Anduin then I imagine the writers intend that to be the final straw to make her completely evil. One would think that sending the inhabitants of Teldrassil to an afterlife where she knows they will be tortured and the very fabric of their existence used to make weapons to erase the universe would be worse, but that is writing I guess.

    Hopefully she is indeed the final boss. I will definitely wear her bow proudly as a trophy of her defeat.
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  7. #2447
    Based Anduin being the best character in WoW once again

  8. #2448
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  9. #2449
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Which brings me to the conclusion that, and I say it with a heavy heart, she's being controlled one way or another. Which I absolutely detest. This strips her of agency, removes her accountability and pushes the blame onto someone else. It leaves her an empty husk. Super Dickmann very eloquently explained this angle in his recent posts. Either she'll break free from Jailer's control, back-stab him and try to do what he was trying to do her own way, or she'll break free and be sorry "it wasn't her" which would be awful, or she'll just die a reluctant minion.
    This is absolutely what it is. It's manipulative emotional control no different than any abusive relationship in real life. The story's now revolved around the penny hasn't dropped yet for her.

    And Zovaal still hasn't played his ace card which is being Arthas as we know who's in The Maw somewhere. He's likely to appear sooner rather than later to drive her completely mad.

    The penny drops eventually when she realises the connections between Zovaal, Kel'Thuzad and Frostmourne.


    I'm more interested in Anduin's development now when he goes from good to bad - The mourneblade being forced on him is inevitable however as a Priest not a Paladin he'll be wielding Void Magic rather than Unholy Magic - Much like when Benedictus decided to turn heel and the Windrunner connection will still be there with Alleria being a Void Elf.

  10. #2450
    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    This is absolutely what it is. It's manipulative emotional control no different than any abusive relationship in real life. The story's now revolved around the penny hasn't dropped yet for her.

    And Zovaal still hasn't played his ace card which is being Arthas as we know who's in The Maw somewhere. He's likely to appear sooner rather than later to drive her completely mad.

    The penny drops eventually when she realises the connections between Zovaal, Kel'Thuzad and Frostmourne.


    I'm more interested in Anduin's development now when he goes from good to bad - The mourneblade being forced on him is inevitable however as a Priest not a Paladin he'll be wielding Void Magic rather than Unholy Magic - Much like when Benedictus decided to turn heel and the Windrunner connection will still be there with Alleria being a Void Elf.
    Actually Anduin can already wield Void magic and has done so in the past, which might be the reason why he was so supportive of Alleria's, huh... creative methods in Shadows Rising.

    I'd love a story arc where Alleria helps Anduin control his newfound powers though. Maybe the Jailer could unlock his true potential in the Void, and to master it Anduin would have to ask for training to Alleria and Locus-Walker.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  11. #2451
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Just quickly to finish tthis thread of discussion.

    Not to try and make the discussion too loaded, but in many ways the story of the Forsaken and Sylvanas can be likened to a toxic relationship. Sylvanas did some good things for the Forsaken and many bad things. And despite all this the Forsaken absolutely adored her as evidenced by their Sylvanas banners and mentions of the "Dark Lady" as some reverent figure.
    That's not making it a loaded discussion, that is all but the text of the story. It's not that anyone isn't aware of what it's being told, it's the two-pronged element of the fact that changing it to such a relationship is a wild contradiction to what was a codependant one before and that viewing the story from that lens makes the conclusion have far worse implications in terms of message.

    On the former front, prior to BTS, the Forsaken and Sylvanas have only benefitted from each other's support. Sylvanas without the Forsaken is an angry bint with revenge issues who would fail at every turn and then get dunked into hell, the Forsaken without her would either be disorganized depressives without a uniting figure or purpose (Vanilla), destroyed entirely in a war they don't care about (Cataclysm Gilneas) and on the lower scale were before BTS free to leave provided they didn't immediately go rogue and Sylvanas gave even the civilians either latitude out of apathy, in Vanilla, or active support in continuing their lives. They had a fairly large cast of characters, most of which fairly amoral and plenty of people who despite this mutually beneficial relationship still struck against her, while Sylvanas's own personal psychoses repeatedly bit her in the ass. Sylvanas ended Cataclysm actively trying to step away from conflict because it was her goal to persevere. Both her and the Forsaken were very much cruel, but in every issue from mind control to plague to relations with the worgen or Horde, there were Forsaken who went much further than she did and were willing to rise up and fight her over it rather than moping. Their issues with humanity were actually life and death. Ergo, the premise of such a lesson fails on the factual pre-BTS level.

    On the post-BTS retcon level, the issue becomes worse, because by retroactively making the Forsaken a police state, removing the negative effects of undeath and making their conflict with humanity a sham, the Forsaken become dupes and victims instead of co-conspirators. Yet while as co-conspirators the Forsaken frequently clashed with Sylvanas, as victims, they're beat housewives. Lacking any reason to support her given the state of their society, all previous characters, from the RAS, to the Executors to the Deathstalkers vanish into thin air. The new characters are not used for them to rise up against Sylvanas on the basis of their own grievances - the only Forsaken to ever do anything is Zelling and he does so under Baine's influence, having nothing to do with the Lordaeron society that had to live in the parody police state of BTS. Everyone else meekly stands by until Sylvanas calls them names, having used them up and flies off. Do they the redefine themselves and start their own society? No, they're unable to do so, the only candidate built for this out of nothing for the expansion, namely Lilian, immediately steps back to let an outside party rule, because the resultant group is too weak and fragile to take agency of any of their own decisions and their reaction to their personality cult around a Queen failing them is to pivot to another Queen, but a good one this time. It's not a story about someone overcoming their abuser, standing up to them and definining themselves - it's the story about thoroughly pathetic people who've learned nothing and would have continued on the same route without outside intervention and who's only means of coping is a rebound to what's essentially the same thing they escaped from with a different coat of paint on it.

    Lacking its leader, capital, every prior character, most themes being thrown aside and their new cast consisting entirely of loans from the Alliance who's implicit conceit is that their identity of fifteen years needs to be replaced with bargain bin humans is already the worst case scenario by a long shot. No race, save maybe the worgen, has been so thoroughly or so quickly demolished. There is nothing in this direction worth keeping and nixing one or in the best case scenario all aspects of BTS is a prerequisite of telling any Forsaken story to speak of that actually services their audience rather than people who want Anduin to have another notch on his belt when it comes to scalping racial identities now that the Alliance is exhausted.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-03 at 10:45 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #2452
    I don't think they are going to redeem her but I do think she will turn on the jailer at the last minute and he will steal our kill.

  13. #2453
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I don't think they are going to redeem her but I do think she will turn on the jailer at the last minute and he will steal our kill.
    This is my likeliest bet as well. After the fade to black she stabs Anduin, turning him into a raid boss, but later on she has second thoughts and turns on the Jailer, only for him to ice her. She gives the players some plot device or info that will allow us to beat Satan or ends up releasing Anduin so he can go back to doing his thing and then she gets sent to the freezer like Illidan for when they want to take another stab at the character, preferably some years from now.
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  14. #2454
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    So I had a thought, did I just gloss over something being done about it or is there still a tear between the sky over Icecrown Citadel linking straight to the Maw? And if it is still there then why is it just ignored? Shouldn't the Jailer be going for broke through it with his armies if his goal is Azeroth considering it's not sealed off like the Maw is supposed to be from the rest of the Shadowlands? We know his forces can go through, that's how this expansion began after all. Or do you think it's going to end up being another "Sargeras' blade" and just ignored despite it being a glaring issue?
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  15. #2455
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    So I had a thought, did I just gloss over something being done about it or is there still a tear between the sky over Icecrown Citadel linking straight to the Maw? And if it is still there then why is it just ignored? Shouldn't the Jailer be going for broke through it with his armies if his goal is Azeroth considering it's not sealed off like the Maw is supposed to be from the rest of the Shadowlands? We know his forces can go through, that's how this expansion began after all. Or do you think it's going to end up being another "Sargeras' blade" and just ignored despite it being a glaring issue?
    It's one way. You can go into the Maw with it, but you can't get out and neither can he. The only Maw forces we see come out of it are kyrians, which are also the only Mawsworn we see out of there in general with the exception of KT's experiments.
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  16. #2456
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's one way. You can go into the Maw with it, but you can't get out and neither can he. The only Maw forces we see come out of it are kyrians, which are also the only Mawsworn we see out of there in general with the exception of KT's experiments.
    I was aware the player can't return through it but I thought the suggestion was that Bolvar would be unable to provide a "path" back through using the Helmet of Domination. I mean I don't know the exact logic or reasoning behind it but paths can be established is what we're told. Additionally do we actually know he can't go through the tear with his forces, as in is this outright stated, or is it he doesn't actually want to go through? All we get explicitly told is nothing escapes the Maw yet we pop in and out via an artifact present there for who knows how long and Mawsworn Kyrian can just fly out whenever. I know it might sound ridiculous but what is stopping them from having them Kyrian grab their army and bombing Icecrown with Mawsworn before a flock of them lifts the Jailer through?
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  17. #2457
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    I was aware the player can't return through it but I thought the suggestion was that Bolvar would be unable to provide a "path" back through using the Helmet of Domination. I mean I don't know the exact logic or reasoning behind it but paths can be established is what we're told. Additionally do we actually know he can't go through the tear with his forces, as in is this outright stated, or is it he doesn't actually want to go through? All we get explicitly told is nothing escapes the Maw yet we pop in and out via an artifact present there for who knows how long and Mawsworn Kyrian can just fly out whenever. I know it might sound ridiculous but what is stopping them from having them Kyrian grab their army and bombing Icecrown with Mawsworn before a flock of them lifts the Jailer through?
    The Jailer himself is still trapped there. At the end of the Ardenweald quest, the Winter Queen mentions that the giant acorn thing at the center is the lock on his prison and the Ardenweald anima reserves are split between it and trying to keep the realm going. His Kyrian can move other people into the Maw, but they can't bring their own forces out, except themselves. So we can use the artifact because we're the main characters and the Kyrians can do it because crossing the realm between life and death is their whole thing, but the standard Mawsworn can't do it and the Jailer himself can't either. Hence why KT is trying to overcome this in the House of Rituals.

    The Bolvar helm thing is vague and unintentionally confusing, but from what I can get because he wore the helm for so long he can use it to navigate into the Maw by connecting to the Jailer's knowledge of the place. This has nothing to do with the Maw being locked away itself and it's also two way, hence why the quests are timegated.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #2458
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is my likeliest bet as well. After the fade to black she stabs Anduin, turning him into a raid boss, but later on she has second thoughts and turns on the Jailer, only for him to ice her. She gives the players some plot device or info that will allow us to beat Satan or ends up releasing Anduin so he can go back to doing his thing and then she gets sent to the freezer like Illidan for when they want to take another stab at the character, preferably some years from now.
    Eh, I'd argue that would still be just awful to her, her fans, and her detractors. The only way this can play out well is if she's the actual Big Bad of this expac and goes full Kefka to his Gestahl. The Jailer is just awful.

    Bonus points if they nudged the meme and audience expectations of a redemption story with it. She comes in and kill-steals him to everyone's shock, it's initially played as a heroic moment.

    Anduin: The Shadowlands...are free!
    Cuts back to Sylvanas
    Sylvanas: No...no, I wouldn't say that at all.
    Cue 9.3

    ...I mean, patch cycles and datamining means you can't surprise anyone anymore, but it'd be nice to see her get her card back.

  19. #2459
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Eh, I'd argue that would still be just awful to her, her fans, and her detractors. The only way this can play out well is if she's the actual Big Bad of this expac and goes full Kefka to his Gestahl. The Jailer is just awful.

    Bonus points if they nudged the meme and audience expectations of a redemption story with it. She comes in and kill-steals him to everyone's shock, it's initially played as a heroic moment.

    Anduin: The Shadowlands...are free!
    Cuts back to Sylvanas
    Sylvanas: No...no, I wouldn't say that at all.
    Cue 9.3

    ...I mean, patch cycles and datamining means you can't surprise anyone anymore, but it'd be nice to see her get her card back.
    Hard agree. It's why I said likely and not preferred.

    When it comes to preference, My preferred version were for her never to have trusted the Jailer in the first place for one thing, given how nonsensical that bit is. But if I were to keep that bugbear and keeping myself as plausible as possible given where Blizzard have shown to be willing to go and what they're likely doing with characters, I'd go with something like this. She goes through with converting Anduin, then has a moment of realizing the obvious when she sees the Jailer teaming up with Kel'thuzad of 'Arthas needs to drop me into the Sunwell' fame and then, if somehow she doesn't know already, that it was his valks that dropped her into hell. Having already turned Anduin we play up her being tricked and how the Jailer actually just wants to kill everyone and she begins working against him in secret. Tyrande and Co point out how she shouldn't be trusted but are stalled from killing her by our intrepid heroes who of course see the goodness in her.

    A later raid in the Maw or what have you sees the Jailer set to release his forces, and it looks like the do-gooders are about to be validated once the post-raid cinematic has Sylvanas free Anduin and foil the Jailer's plan and the heroes kill him, The music swells, Sylvanas helps defrost Anduin from the big on/off switch keeping the Maw's forces tied up and thanks him for setting her straight and helping her realize she was someone else's pawn. In fact, she was so inspired that she now intends to return the favor to everyone else and set them all free(TM). She finishes up the freeing of the Maw forces, now under her command, and goes off to usurp the Arbiter and become god. She lets Anduin go because he has contractual immunity and as a measure of respect. Cue final raid with her as the end boss.

    Bonus points if the follow up is an 'I told you so' by those who called this from the start and this later leads into Anduin having trouble getting his throne back.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-04 at 08:34 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #2460
    I definitely miss simpler times when there was a threat, we defeated it, then something else happened. I feel like we're in the current situation since forever, as the current events are coming from something that happened in ... MoP ? Garrosh who went crazy, then back in time, freed Gul'dan, made the Legion come to Azeroth, leading the Sarg' stabbing the planet, bla, bla, bla and now the Jailer is behind most of this shit since the beginning, even further (with LK) ?

    It seems Blizzard writers have written themselves in a corner a long time ago, by trying to write a way-too-convoluted story they can't conclude at all without retconning half of the existing lore.... And that's a pity. I definitely miss the times when there was a big baddie built for the expac, baddie who we defeated at the end, and the end of the expac could be considered as a "now everything's fine". Until something else happened, of course, but not necessarily linked to the previous. Like Cataclysm-MoP transition. Deathwing defeated, planet can start healing, but then something else, unrelated, happens. I'm fed up of this pile of "We succeeded... But wait ! It was part of X plan all along". Makes all endings feel unsatisfying, like Legion's or BfA (wait, wasn't there a blade somewhere ?).

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