SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Aucald]

The dragon size is meaningless when Sargeras is literally stabbing the planet surface ala Silithus. Sargeras can simply manipulate his size. If people like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden can do it, there's no reason why Sargeras, the one who empowered them, can't. That's why in some artworks he is depicted as a planet-sized being, while in others he is smaller.

That's possible, and that's part and parcel of what I was originally talking about. Regardless, it was very inconsistent until Chronicle, and being planet-sized was a description the Titans lacked in early material like the UVG or in-game lore. We also don't know what Sargeras is stabbing in your picture above, it doesn't have to be the surface of a planet, and that also implies the dragons or drakes in the image are themselves the size of planetoids (or large enough to also see the curvature of a planet).

[Varodoc]

That's possible, and that's part and parcel of what I was originally talking about. Regardless, it was very inconsistent until Chronicle, and being planet-sized was a description the Titans lacked in early material like the UVG or in-game lore. We also don't know what Sargeras is stabbing in your picture above, it doesn't have to be the surface of a planet, and that also implies the dragons or drakes in the image are themselves the size of planetoids (or large enough to also see the curvature of a planet).

That very clearly looks like the surface of a planet...

[Aucald]

That very clearly looks like the surface of a planet...

Or it's just a surface and is only curved due to artistic license and forced perspective.

[sam86]

Or Metzen kinda forgot him, about like he kinda forgot the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, or how he kinda forgot Hakkar the Houndmaster when naming the ZG boss.

Hakkar the houndmaster is named after ZG boss not other way around, almost everything in wow was already established and determined in wow rpg books
Also it doesn't matter since a big pile of shit point about Hakkar houndmaster was he got 'killed' in war of ancient and how it will change future, only to discover nope demons have free rez 24/7

[Varodoc]

Or it's just a surface and is only curved due to artistic license and forced perspective.

That would still make Sargeras planet-sized, since he appears as a behemot in the sky overlooking the land.

Honestly I dont know why you want to die on this hill so badly, Blizzard has at least been consistent in presenting Sargeras as a super mega planet-sized threat.

[A Chozo]

That would still make Sargeras planet-sized, since he appears as a behemot in the sky overlooking the land.

That isn't planet sized, that is behemot sized.

Blizzard hasn't been consistent in presenting Sargeras as planet-sized. Titans weren't that size until recently.

[Varodoc]

That isn't planet sized, that is behemot sized.

Blizzard hasn't been consistent in presenting Sargeras as planet-sized. Titans weren't that size until recently.

I cant tell if you are being serious or not.

Regardless, in the Sundering it was also stated that Archimonde and Mannoroth are mere fleas compared to him. I proved the clear concept Blizzard had for this character, decide what you want to believe.

[Mehrunes]

Hakkar the houndmaster is named after ZG boss not other way around, almost everything in wow was already established and determined in wow rpg books
Also it doesn't matter since a big pile of shit point about Hakkar houndmaster was he got 'killed' in war of ancient and how it will change future, only to discover nope demons have free rez 24/7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uzFQ_n88k&t=15m48s Metzen says you're wrong.

[Aucald]

That would still make Sargeras planet-sized, since he appears as a behemot in the sky overlooking the land.

Honestly I dont know why you want to die on this hill so badly, Blizzard has at least been consistent in presenting Sargeras as a super mega planet-sized threat.

A massive giant can also scrape the sky and overlook the land - Sargeras in your picture could easily be the size of a massive skyscraper, immense but not the size of a planet. It's not really a hill I'm dying on, either; it's just a basic parcel of inconsistency in the older lore.

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I cant tell if you are being serious or not.

Regardless, in the Sundering it was also stated that Archimonde and Mannoroth are mere fleas compared to him. I proved the clear concept Blizzard had for this character, decide what you want to believe.

"Fleas" here is used in terms of his power compared to theirs, not his size - that's the context the comparison is being made in. Sargeras is also not planet-sized in the War of the Ancients trilogy as Broxigar, a mere Orc, is both able to see him arriving and scratches him on his foot - both things that would be impossible if Sargeras was planet-sized (Brox wouldn't even be able to see his foot in such a scenario). Again, that could be explained by him being in an Avatar, or by altering his shape, but it's never made explicit.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I have actually read the book.

I don't have to prove anything to you, I won't read it again for you, search it up or something.
I don't know why you are trying to argue something that is written in a canon piece of fiction.

Animation like that is done to give emotion to a character's face that otherwise wouldn't be able to emote.
Like the original spiderman mask.

Oh ok. Fiction does change sometimes. He went from being a mysterious death god to a former mortal. And there is a part in the cutscene where Rastakhan dies where the 'flames' go out in his 'eyes' and light back up again. he also dosen't have a nose either lol

I did it anyways.
Here it is:

"A bony, skull-shaped growth covered most of his face, though his permanently smug smile remained unfettered."
"He floated closer, and Talanji could see him batting his lashes like a fool behind his skull-like brow."
"Bwonsamdi grinned, a twinkle in his eyes behind the mask-like bone around his orbits."

And this is only from the first time he shows up in the book. I cannot be bothered to look up the rest of the times his face is mentioned.

Point stands, it's not his skull. Case closed.

Hmm. That's just weird... Maybe the author just decided to change it up a bit to be more creative? He IS very fun to write too, I've written some stories about him a few times.

But, this is just a theory for another thread, my apologies if I was being annoying

[tommyhil622]

The size of the Titans is still something that is apparently in contention in the lore - leaving it open as to whether or not they could grow/shrink at will, or use avatars. They were apparently (in Chronicle Vol. 1) unable to contend directly with the Old Gods for fear of harming the Azeroth World-Soul, as they did when destroying Y'Shaarj. Yet when we actually encounter them in Antorus they are simply giants, although this could be due to their diminishing due to being killed by Sargeras. Then you have Sargeras, who appears in the Legion closing cutscene as a planet-sized creature, but then assumes a giant-sized form when he is pulled into the Seat of the Pantheon by his peers.

They were in diminished forms. That's why the patheon isn't the same scale as Sargears. They're original bodies were destroyed when Sargeras defeated them. It was part of the plan to bend them to his will like he did with Agrammar, but it didn't work out when they were rescued.

[Aucald]

They were in diminished forms. That's why the patheon isn't the same scale as Sargears. They're original bodies were destroyed when Sargeras defeated them. It was part of the plan to bend them to his will like he did with Agrammar, but it didn't work out when they were rescued.

That was always my line of thinking - the Pantheon had been diminished due to their deaths, and sending off a portion of their own essence to the Keepers on Azeroth. But that doesn't really explain Sargeras later on, when he's forcibly brought to the Seat of Pantheon and scaled down from his original planet-size when looming over Azeroth's surface. The only real solution that fits is that size is pretty much up to the given Titan, and they can more or less shift at will. But then that begs the question as to why Sargeras needed avatars in the first place.

[tommyhil622]

That was always my line of thinking - the Pantheon had been diminished due to their deaths, and sending off a portion of their own essence to the Keepers on Azeroth. But that doesn't really explain Sargeras later on, when he's forcibly brought to the Seat of Pantheon and scaled down from his original planet-size when looming over Azeroth's surface. The only real solution that fits is that size is pretty much up to the given Titan, and they can more or less shift at will. But then that begs the question as to why Sargeras needed avatars in the first place.

Yea it's a little weird, i figured it's part of the magic to keep him confined. Still weird for sure lol. A couple of odd things happening in the cinematic. The random smoke hiding Sargeras, and where was he the whole time and how we didn't notice him. The actual scale of the sword vs what we see in game, etc some things get lost when they try to depict the lore in-game.

[Garymorilix]

Oh ok. Fiction does change sometimes. He went from being a mysterious death god to a former mortal. And there is a part in the cutscene where Rastakhan dies where the 'flames' go out in his 'eyes' and light back up again. he also dosen't have a nose either lol



Hmm. That's just weird... Maybe the author just decided to change it up a bit to be more creative? He IS very fun to write too, I've written some stories about him a few times.

But, this is just a theory for another thread, my apologies if I was being annoying

The author confirmed in various interviews that Blizzard kept a very close eye on the project, where they even made her write what they wanted her to write in order to keep the WoW lore intact.

Almost every single time Bwonsamdi shows up in the book his face is described as a "mask-like skull".

This is not a coincidence, everything told in this book is intentional (as it is meant to be canon and a bridge between two expansions).

Being a mysterious death god and a former mortal are not mutually exlusive. It's just called an origin story.
As I said, nothing has stated that Bwonsamdi was a troll in life. Even he says he wasn't in another book.

And before you hit me with the unreliable narrator trope: There is no unreliable narration in WoW.
Red herrings yes, but those are not lies.
Even the Old Gods tell the truth all the time.
The closest we got to a liar is Odyn, but his stories are written in a way that you can tell it's not true.

[Lahis]

Eh, he was decent in MoP up until the end where he fumbled and couldn't get in the gates of Org.

That was... bad.


But he's always felt like he was the only character in WoW not fudging his rolls and having to actually play realpolitik.

That was before he was Warchief

[LemonDemonGirl]

Does this mean we'll be seeing Vol'jin sooner?

[masterjc]

Well he is ancient and it seems all troll tribes worship him, so it's not unlikely that he was, indeed, a Dark Troll. Though regarding his size, he can change that at will so that's just magic.

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The Zandalari was a tribe, just like the Amani, Farakki or Gurubashi. They weren't the progenitors of the troll race. "The lesser tribes built small encampments on Zandalar's slopes, but the most powerful tribe, the Zandalari, claimed the highest peaks and plateaus"
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll#Trai...haracteristics

as far as I remember, race was same, but tribes were different. after they moved to different areas, they evolved differently

[Syegfryed]

Point stands, it's not his skull. Case closed.

explain his absence of nose then

[Garymorilix]

explain his absence of nose then

Why would I need to explain anything? I do not write for Bwonsamdi.

I literally quoted the most recent canon description of him for you to read. I did not write those. The Author + Blizzard did.
I don't know why you are trying to win an argument against actual canon that has been released literally 2 weeks ago.

[LemonDemonGirl]

explain his absence of nose then

Yeah, you can clearly see his inner nose, plus his hair is growing out of it

Also, his 'eyes' are 'closed' here



I do remember seeing somewhere that his face has been described as 'Looking like a Rush'ka mask' too, but I cannot seem to find it

However, that might've been for Samedi in the RPG game so idk?