SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Varodoc]

Lorewise I find the whole Scourge Plague event so funny, in a tragic way. The new zombie apocalypse begins right after Stormwind became crowded with kaldorei and gilnean refugees from Teldrassil. That must suck for the Alliance. But then again, the Alliance at this point is an experienced punching bag.

[Verdugo]

except he's acting like Calia is the forsaken leader, when in reality, she very much isn't.

She is the leader in all but official title. And the only reason why it isnt official is because of backlash. And they are still trying to push her forward instead of chopping off her disgusting porcelain head.

[Mehrunes]

There's very little info on the Aranakk, but it's entirely possible they are actually the shades of former living Nerbubians or the Aranasi, which would explain their presence in Maldraxxus as its a possible afterlife. Given that we discover the Helm of Domination is linked indelibly to the Maw, and thus to the Shadowlands, I suppose the Maldraxxus influence is in part explainable - but I agree it's kind of odd, especially since we already had a provenance for the aesthetic of the Scourge (borrowed from the Nerubians).

Can they make an explanation like that? Sure. Though given how I don't recall any non-Maldraxxus aligned Aranakk, it'd strike me as odd that all Nerubians would go there. Especially since what little that we know about their society doesn't exactly strike me as prime Maldraxxus material.

But that's beside the point. The point isn't about the in-lore aspect, it's about the deliberate design choice Blizzard made to copy Scourge aesthetic this thoroughly (to the point it makes their in-lore explanation crack open) and the rather obvious conclusion that they did so to ride the Scourge nostalgia train.

Because they could have very well made Maldraxxus where there are some constructs and the like that the Scourge have copied, but without copies of Nerubians that don't fit their "Lich King ripped of the Necrolords all along, what a twist (that totally doesn't exist just to justify our lazy design) this is." ad hoc excuse for said lazy design on top of that. They could have made it so that aside of the "not abominations" etc., the other inhabitants of the realm were undead-looking marmot-people or a plant-based race that looks like animated rotting turnips instead.

But that wouldn't let them go "Member how undead Nerubians were a big part of the Scourge aesthetic we are ripping off here in our desperate realization of our creative bankruptcy? Well, turns out the Scourge forces that wouldn't make sense in context of our 'Scourge is a bunch of Maldraxxus cosplayers' excuse have their remakes in the zone anyway. What an even twistier twist it is. Now give us money for pandering to your WC3/WotLK nostalgia." about it.

Their nostalgia baiting is essentially them having it both ways. They want to have their cake (certain Maldraxxus creatures are copies of Scourge because in-lore it's the other way around) and eat it too (the remaining Maldraxxus creatures are still copies of all the other Scourge forces, because fuck you). It's the apotheosis of laziness.

An apotheosis of laziness that turns the Scourge into a joke, because it turns out one of Warcraft's most iconic threats hasn't had a single original idea. For some god-forsaken reason Maldraxxus even has some plague-related themes even though there's hardly a need for any plague in the land of the dead.

except he's acting like Calia is the forsaken leader, when in reality, she very much isn't.

Which part of the hypothetical scenario of Calia reaching out to Tyrande about the undead Night Elves that @Super Dickmann postulated in the relevant post requires her to be the Forsaken leader?

[Traveler Voltin]

She is the leader in all but official title. And the only reason why it isnt official is because of backlash. And they are still trying to push her forward instead of chopping off her disgusting porcelain head.

Calia needs to die.

[Kralljin]

I can only chime in on the Maldraxxus thing, altough from a different angle.

It's quite obvious that Blizzard realized that this entire Afterlife how Orcs imagine is not represented in Shadowlands, now shoehorning that into the Scourge Themed covenant is utterly bonkers.

This entire theme of "honor" stands out like a sore thumb in Maldraxxus.
I can buy the whole "bloodsport Arena" theme, but i don't really think the faction that is basically one huge Scourge fan service needed a "there are some good guys there as well!".
If somebody likes the Scourge and wants to "join" them, then because they want to be a total assbag, not to join some "honorable" Necro Orc club.

Undead Armies are evil, it's cliche but it worked and nobody really questioned it like "maybe there is another angle to them!".

[Super Dickmann]

Imagine being this uneducated about the fact Voss is the new forsaken leader

Voss is so much of a non-entity she deferred to Calia on the topic of her own father and had no rank in the Forsaken before BFA. The nu-undead need to be thoroughly exterminated for their own good.

[Aucald]

I can only chime in on the Maldraxxus thing, altough from a different angle.

It's quite obvious that Blizzard realized that this entire Afterlife how Orcs imagine is not represented in Shadowlands, now shoehorning that into the Scourge Themed covenant is utterly bonkers.

This entire theme of "honor" stands out like a sore thumb in Maldraxxus.
I can buy the whole "bloodsport Arena" theme, but i don't really think the faction that is basically one huge Scourge fan service needed a "there are some good guys there as well!".
If somebody likes the Scourge and wants to "join" them, then because they want to be a total assbag, not to join some "honorable" Necro Orc club.

Undead Armies are evil, it's cliche but it worked and nobody really questioned it like "maybe there is another angle to them!".

There's nothing of an Orcish afterlife represented at all in Maldraxxus. I can kind of see why Draka ended up there given her story in A Warrior Made, where she was a sickly and frail Orc who was a virtual outcast among the Frostwolves. In the story she goes to Mother Kashur seeking a ritual to improve herself somehow, to remove her frailty, and Mother Kashur sends her for some difficult-to-acquire ritual components in a clever ruse designed to make her push herself and see she was not as weak as both she and the other Frostwolves considered her to be. That drive to improve and prove herself as a warrior goes far to explaining why she's in Maldraxxus - it's a good fit for the philosophy of the Necrolords as concerns meritocracy and martial strength.

She is, to my knowledge, the only Orc we see in Maldraxxus - and Maldraxxus has no other Orcish aesthetics beyond the sense of honor or duty it has to protecting the whole of the Shadowlands from external threats like the Void (and possibly the Light as well). The honor schtick also seems to be strong associated with the House of the Chosen, primarily, though it might have been more pervasive before the Drought and Maldraxxus was basically forced to fend for itself (it is a very anima-barren land).

[Traveler Voltin]

Imagine being this uneducated about the fact Voss is the new forsaken leader

Voss forced herself as acting forsaken leader so she can train then force Calia to lead the forsaken

[Nerovar]

It's quite obvious that Blizzard realized that this entire Afterlife how Orcs imagine is not represented in Shadowlands, now shoehorning that into the Scourge Themed covenant is utterly bonkers.

It's truly is utterly bonkers. The thought of making an afterlife of which the central themes are "honor" and "might makes right" is in itself quite moronic though. Putting a paladin like Alexandros Mograine there is just the cherry on top though.

And while what you said about "Orc afterlife" being missing is true, it's also basically true for every other race. Ardenweald for Night Elves? Not really. Prior to the Shadowlands retcon, Druids went to the Emerald Dream and the rest probably believed they were reunited with Elune. Humans? They believed they would go to the Light (which is nowhere to be found in the Shadowlands) just as the Draenei, Dwarves and High Elves. I could go on but I think I got the point across.

[LemonDemonGirl]

And while what you said about "Orc afterlife" being missing is true, it's also basically true for every other race. Ardenweald for Night Elves? Not really. Prior to the Shadowlands retcon, Druids went to the Emerald Dream and the rest probably believed they were reunited with Elune. Humans? They believed they would go to the Light (which is nowhere to be found in the Shadowlands) just as the Draenei, Dwarves and High Elves. I could go on but I think I got the point across.

At least the troll Afterlife was correct though Right?

Except there's a lot of trolls still going to the Maw. Thanks Mueh'zala! Have fun in Bad Troll Jail

[Kralljin]

There's nothing of an Orcish afterlife represented at all in Maldraxxus.

Considering Maldraxxus is largely based on combat / strength and has a house that very much represents the orcish honor, i think it's the closest thing you get.

And while what you said about "Orc afterlife" being missing is true, it's also basically true for every other race. Ardenweald for Night Elves? Not really. Prior to the Shadowlands retcon, Druids went to the Emerald Dream and the rest probably believed they were reunited with Elune. Humans? They believed they would go to the Light (which is nowhere to be found in the Shadowlands) just as the Draenei, Dwarves and High Elves. I could go on but I think I got the point across.

To be fair, places like Ardenweald or Bastion at least have some astethic appeal / connection to Human / Elven culture.

Ardenweald is just another "pretty magical forest" filled with mythical creatures, if one were to tell me that Night elves go there after they die, i think it would fit.
Similiar thing for Bastion, except obviously the brainwash part.

Still can't grasp that we mindwipe a Tauren, a guy from a culture that is built on ancestral worship where it has become a common practice to call upon your ancestors for advice or aid.

What should the living relatives of said Tauren expect when they call upon the "aid" of said Tauren that ended up in Bastion?
File cannot be found?

The mythos of the Afterlife in Warcraft was way too diverse for the team to do each aspect proper justice.
And the sad thing is, it's one of those things that, again, no one really questioned.

But no, better waste material for 2-3 expansions on BfA, but follow it up with the deadmans version of WoD in terms lore fuckery.

[Hellspawn]

At least the troll Afterlife was correct though Right?

Trolls close to loa would go to Ardenweald or till now would get consumed by Mueh'zala... or join another covernant.

[plz delete account]

Voss is so much of a non-entity she deferred to Calia on the topic of her own father and had no rank in the Forsaken before BFA. The nu-undead need to be thoroughly exterminated for their own good.

Actually, on voss not having a rank in the Forsaken... that was kind've her shtick. Undead hunter (not the class) with a vengeance against the scarlet crusade and evil undead

[Nerovar]

Considering Maldraxxus is largely based on combat / strength and has a house that very much represents the orcish honor, i think it's the closest thing you get.


To be fair, places like Ardenweald or Bastion at least have some astethic appeal / connection to Human / Elven culture.

Ardenweald is just another "pretty magical forest" filled with mythical creatures, if one were to tell me that Night elves go there after they die, i think it would fit.
Similiar thing for Bastion, except obviously the brainwash part.

Still can't grasp that we mindwipe a Tauren, a guy from a culture that is built on ancestral worship where it has become a common practice to call upon your ancestors for advice or aid.

What should the living relatives of said Tauren expect when they call upon the "aid" of said Tauren that ended up in Bastion?
File cannot be found?

The mythos of the Afterlife in Warcraft was way too diverse for the team to do each aspect proper justice.
And the sad thing is, it's one of those things that, again, no one really questioned.

But no, better waste material for 2-3 expansions on BfA, but follow it up with the deadmans version of WoD in terms lore fuckery.

I mean, it should a pretty big deal for a human who devoted his entire life to the Light to end up in a place that is literally light-forsaken. Sure, there might be some superficial connections to humans (Kyrians look pretty human) but that's about it.

What you said about communicating with ancestors is also a pretty big deal and another thing that breaks continuity. Wouldn't one of those ancestors have mentioned at least something about the places we're going to see in the Shadowlands or the nature of the Shadowlands itself?

In terms of all the mysteries that surrounded the different afterlives of the different cultures on Azeroth, Shadowlands has already destroyed more than it has created.

[Mehrunes]

The mythos of the Afterlife in Warcraft was way too diverse for the team to do each aspect proper justice.

To give Blizzard's writing team credit where credit is due, it's not just the topic of afterlife that they cannot do proper justice to. Limiting things to just the afterlife unfairly diminishes the scope of their incompetence.

What you said about communicating with ancestors is also a pretty big deal and another thing that breaks continuity. Wouldn't one of those ancestors have mentioned at least something about the places we're going to see in the Shadowlands or the nature of the Shadowlands itself?

It's not as big of a deal as you paint it as. You see, thanks to the powers of plot convenience, all the ancestral spirits of Orcs (or any other race that has the ancestral spirit on speed-dial shtick) the still living members of their race could contact went to the same exact realm out of the infinite options of the Shadowlands (all the Orcs that went to Maldraxxus were too busy teaching Scourge how to Scourge to bother with responding to Shamans, for example).

On top of that, they went to a realm where souls didn't actually know there's more to Shadowlands than the realm they got stuck in, which is why they didn't tell their living buddies about the intricacies of the afterlife and how they go beyond the scope of their belief system. They simply had no idea about it themselves.

[Skytotem]

Voss is so much of a non-entity she deferred to Calia on the topic of her own father and had no rank in the Forsaken before BFA. The nu-undead need to be thoroughly exterminated for their own good.

Eh? Didn't Voss's dad die in Tirisfal in Cata?

[Rhlor]

I don't get why Blizz wants to make her prominent Horde figure.

Her whole point is that as a Blood Elf, she can move DISCREETLY in Horde lands while being loyal friend to Wrynn dynasty and Stormwind.

because blizzard killed or turned villains almost every major character in the horde, and she's at least a known character and a blood elf.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the entire issue with faction balance in the story. When the story is directly Horde vs Alliance, Horde gets all the attention (the kind of attention a violent drunk parent gives to their kids). The MOMENT the story turns into factions vs external threat, they forget the Horde exists and everything is about Alliance or Alliance-affiliated characters. At least with Shadowlands we get a somewhat more fair distribution so far; we have Uther, Tyrande, Alexandros and Vol'jin, Draka, Kael'thas. Of course on Horde side the ones that would feel most related to the story would be the blood elves but let's face it, the majority of the Horde playerbase ARE elves at this point.

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It's in keeping with Sylvanas not really being able to understand how anything affects people other than herself. Even when she was good, she was still a narcissist.

I think a lot of trolls players like the lore of muehzela and bwonsamdi that we will see in shadowlands

[Skytotem]

I think a lot of trolls players like the lore of muehzela and bwonsamdi that we will see in shadowlands

Bwom's coming through alright but Mueh'zala is too one-dimensional and evil.

[BaumanKing]

If Calia, Derek and Valeera are now officially part of the Horde, can the Alliance take Khadgar back?

[Ardenaso]

If Calia, Derek and Valeera are now officially part of the Horde, can the Alliance take Khadgar back?

no, too many Horde characters dying; if anything the Horde should get and take even more

now come to think of it, why don't Maxwell just reinstate himself as the new regent-lord of (eastern) Lordaeron and vows to protect his Lordaeronian kin in western Lordaeron since they're his own people; this way the Argent Lordaeronians would rekindle their relations with the Blood Elves. Then we could have an Alliance of Lordaeron 2.0 on the Horde with Forsaken Lordaeronians, Argent Lordaeronians, Blood Elves (and probably Alteraci too I hope). I'm not saying Argent Lordaeronian as a Horde allied race, but anallied-allied race like High Elves, Broken Draenei, Shen'dralar, Mok'nathal, Ogres, Revantusk etc.