SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Aucald]

Could someone help me to understand pls?

The Shadowlands are some sort of After Life ( or dimension, or plane of existence), but how can a Soul of Shadowlands possibily INTERACT with the "World" without have a BODY or CORPORAL form?

Draka (possibly ) went to the Burning Legion Camp with HER body, so wtf?

The Shadowlands are essentially another reality, not really an entirely spiritual world that is 100% ephemeral and without substance. The Shadowlands have physicality, substance, and essential physics (albeit somewhat different than the reality of life). When you die your substance is basically translated into anima, which in the Shadowlands can have physicality as long as you have enough of it. If you lose your anima you start to "devolve" into a less substantial being, until you eventually discorporate entirely and are unable to even hold your sense of self together.

When Draka arrived in Maldraxxus she had sufficient anima to be herself, in a projection or simulacrum of her original form. Not everyone in Maldraxxus has the same benefits - which is why they can receive construct bodies or be further augmented by their Barons or Margraves. Generally speaking the more powerful and/or willful you were in life, the greater the chance that you'll still be you and have a physical form based on your self-image in the Shadowlands.

[Juther]

The Shadowlands are essentially another reality, not really an entirely spiritual world that is 100% ephemeral and without substance. The Shadowlands have physicality, substance, and essential physics (albeit somewhat different than the reality of life). When you die your substance is basically translated into anima, which in the Shadowlands can have physicality as long as you have enough of it. If you lose your anima you start to "devolve" into a less substantial being, until you eventually discorporate entirely and are unable to even hold your sense of self together.

When Draka arrived in Maldraxxus she had sufficient anima to be herself, in a projection or simulacrum of her original form. Not everyone in Maldraxxus has the same benefits - which is why they can receive construct bodies or be further augmented by their Barons or Margraves. Generally speaking the more powerful and/or willful you were in life, the greater the chance that you'll still be you and have a physical form based on your self-image in the Shadowlands.

thank you, sir!

[TheFirstOnes]

Jailer is so lame.

They destroyed and undermined the Burning Legion and Sargeras (all lore in general) for that

In what regard did they destroy the Legion?

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I'm not really getting Sargeras vibes from Zovaal, myself; beyond some surface similarities Zovaal is feeling more like LotR's Melkor/Morgoth than Sargeras. The whole notion that Zovaal was treacherous leads one to believe he tried to take power, perhaps transgressing some boundary of being, more Lucifer-like than Sargaras' misguided nature. Sargeras wanted to "fix" the universe, his goal was perversely noble, but unfortunately involved the destruction of all "intrinsically flawed life" as he saw it. I don't really get any sense that Zovaal is guided by any form of noble goal, even one corrupted by madness, not from the Primus' brief description of his past crimes.

Both Sargeras and the Jailer provide satanic references imo. Sargeras with his devilish look, as well as the fact that he leads an immortal army of Demons that mostly use a Pentagram for rituals (Which is Satanic asf), while the Jailer rules over WoW's hell and seems to have a backstory most akin to that of Satan. However, he himself doesn't share the demonic ordeals Sargeras has, which is very interesting...

Meanwhile, the Void Lords are just the Outer Gods.

[Varodoc]

Jailer is not like Sargeras at all. Their goals are the exact opposite. Sargeras wants to preserve the cosmos by destroying all traces of the Void. Jailer wants to unmake the cosmos by destroying the machine of Death and the Shadowlands.

[Darknessvamp]

Any idea where this is located? Oribos?

I think it's explicitly vague as they don't know what they want "The Tomb" to be yet, so yeah we don't have a clue where this is atm. Also I wonder why would they fear Zovaal reaching anything? He can't leave the Maw and they've yet to plot dump how he can magic his ass out of there to be an actual threat. At the moment it's all his lackeys and partners just powering themselves up in the story.

Jailer is not like Sargeras at all. Their goals are the exact opposite. Sargeras wants to preserve the cosmos by destroying all traces of the Void. Jailer wants to unmake the cosmos by destroying the machine of Death and the Shadowlands.

Wouldn't it be the case that their goals are the same but their motivations are different? Sargeras wanted universal suicide to stop the void from being able to corrupt anything and the Jailer wants the death of everything just cause. Both want everything dead as their goal, no wonder he was able to work with the Legion. /s

[Cherry123]

Comics and audio dramas coming soon, they come out before the pre-patch.

[Aucald]

Both Sargeras and the Jailer provide satanic references imo. Sargeras with his devilish look, as well as the fact that he leads an immortal army of Demons that mostly use a Pentagram for rituals (Which is Satanic asf), while the Jailer rules over WoW's hell and seems to have a backstory most akin to that of Satan. However, he himself doesn't share the demonic ordeals Sargeras has, which is very interesting...

Meanwhile, the Void Lords are just the Outer Gods.

Satan, the mythological Judeochristian entity in this case, has a lot of different characterizations. There is the flaming, chaotic, "Prince of Evil" type incarnation which I agree Sargeras shares in - with the demonic traits, the flames, and general aura of evilness. But you also have the rebel angel incarnation, where Satan has retained his "perfect beauty" and fairness of form, and more or less serves durance in perdition for his various crimes. Sargeras is definitely more in the mold of the demonic Satan depiction, more Dante than Doré; whereas Zovaal feels more like the rebellious angel version of the character, not really demonic and perhaps not even pointedly evil, but definitely self-involved and/or egotistical (or Lawful Evil to the Chaotic Evil depiction, if you prefer).

And yes, the Void Lords are definitely an homage to Lovecraft's Outer Gods like Azathoth.

[TheFirstOnes]

Satan, the mythological Judeochristian entity in this case, has a lot of different characterizations. There is the flaming, chaotic, "Prince of Evil" type incarnation which I agree Sargeras shares in - with the demonic traits, the flames, and general aura of evilness. But you also have the rebel angel incarnation, where Satan has retained his "perfect beauty" and fairness of form, and more or less serves durance in perdition for his various crimes. Sargeras is definitely more in the mold of the demonic Satan depiction, more Dante than Doré; whereas Zovaal feels more like the rebellious angel version of the character, not really demonic and perhaps not even pointedly evil, but definitely self-involved and/or egotistical (or Lawful Evil to the Chaotic Evil depiction, if you prefer).

And yes, the Void Lords are definitely an homage to Lovecraft's Outer Gods like Azathoth.

Yeah. Makes you wonder just how powerful Warcraft is as a verse, really. Considering power in this game scales from Planetary to shit that's above baseline Outerversal, with the Emerald Dream, etc.

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Doesn't help that guys like the Outer Gods are the most powerful beings in Fiction, and the Void Lords are literally Warcraft's version of them.

[Varodoc]

I think it's explicitly vague as they don't know what they want "The Tomb" to be yet, so yeah we don't have a clue where this is atm. Also I wonder why would they fear Zovaal reaching anything? He can't leave the Maw and they've yet to plot dump how he can magic his ass out of there to be an actual threat. At the moment it's all his lackeys and partners just powering themselves up in the story.



Wouldn't it be the case that their goals are the same but their motivations are different? Sargeras wanted universal suicide to stop the void from being able to corrupt anything and the Jailer wants the death of everything just cause. Both want everything dead as their goal, no wonder he was able to work with the Legion. /s

But Sargeras doesn't want everything dead. The Legion never sought total eradication of all life. They sought total conquest, which is different.

That's why countless Legion servants were recruited in exchange for their lives. The nightborne, eredar, and many other species joined the Legion so that their life would be spared. Very clearly the Legion does not blindly seek to eradicate all life like Jailer or Lich King.

[Verdugo]

Doesn't help that guys like the Outer Gods are the most powerful beings in Fiction, and the Void Lords are literally Warcraft's version of them.

A shallow version, yes.

[TheFirstOnes]

A shallow version, yes.

That'll depend on how powerful Blizzard makes them.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Both Sargeras and the Jailer provide satanic references imo. Sargeras with his devilish look, as well as the fact that he leads an immortal army of Demons that mostly use a Pentagram for rituals (Which is Satanic asf), while the Jailer rules over WoW's hell and seems to have a backstory most akin to that of Satan. However, he himself doesn't share the demonic ordeals Sargeras has, which is very interesting...

Meanwhile, the Void Lords are just the Outer Gods.

Mueh'zala kind of also strikes me as 'Troll Satan' while Bwonsamdi is.... I'm not really sure, a Demigod or something? Or a Psychopomp

[Verdugo]

That'll depend on how powerful Blizzard makes them.

I dont give a shit, they can make them destroy 3 timelines with a single fart, they will still remain a shallow imitation that will impress only the simpletons.

[THEORACLE64]

The statue is a depiction of the Primus, but all current evidence points to the Primus actually being the Runecarver - an individual trapped in Torghast who's had his memories removed and crafts the Legendary items in Shadowlands for you.

I mean, even if you look at the hands compared to the statue of the Primus they’re pretty much the same. The Runecarver is only other main figure that aids us outside of the covenant leaders, so it would make sense/be a good twist.

[TheFirstOnes]

I dont give a shit, they can make them destroy 3 timelines with a single fart, they will still remain a shallow imitation that will impress only the simpletons.

That's kinda the thing though. Destroying timelines is weak asf in WoW. Beings from the Infinite Dragonflight could do that. Any Legion simpleton could invade a timeline and dismantle it.

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Besides, they kinda make the Old Gods extremely similar to the Elder Gods. The only reason they lost was because we were that powerful (With aid, etc).

[Verdugo]

That's kinda the thing though. Destroying timelines is weak asf in WoW. Beings from the Infinite Dragonflight could do that. Any Legion simpleton could invade a timeline and dismantle it.

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Besides, they kinda make the Old Gods extremely similar to the Elder Gods. The only reason they lost was because we were that powerful (With aid, etc).

You keep talking about power, as if that was the main measure if something is interesting or not. Again, who gives a shit, they will remain shallow since Blizzard doesnt understand anything about Lovecraft works other than "spooky tentacle monsters that make you crayzey".

[Aucald]

That's kinda the thing though. Destroying timelines is weak asf in WoW. Beings from the Infinite Dragonflight could do that. Any Legion simpleton could invade a timeline and dismantle it.

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Besides, they kinda make the Old Gods extremely similar to the Elder Gods. The only reason they lost was because we were that powerful (With aid, etc).

Chronicle Vol. 3 basically renders that pointless as timelines outside the primary timeline (the one our characters inhabit) essentially destroy themselves over time, due to inherent instability and separation from the true timeline. You can rescue resources from AU timelines, such as the Legion scooping up AU Gul'dan to accelerate their plans in Legion, but that's only if you can somehow get entrance to an AU timeline after finding one of infinite versions that suits your needs. Given that only beings who excel at Chronomancy can do so, the odds remain low.

The Legion got lucky with the WoD timeline due to Kairoz's stupidity.

[TheFirstOnes]

Chronicle Vol. 3 basically renders that pointless as timelines outside the primary timeline (the one our characters inhabit) essentially destroy themselves over time, due to inherent instability and separation from the true timeline. You can rescue resources from AU timelines, such as the Legion scooping up AU Gul'dan to accelerate their plans in Legion, but that's only if you can somehow get entrance to an AU timeline after finding one of infinite versions that suits your needs. Given that only beings who excel at Chronomancy can do so, the odds remain low.

The Legion got lucky with the WoD timeline due to Kairoz's stupidity.

That is true. The Illidan Novel is also kinda weird with this, as the Legion can just invade an infinite amount of timelines for an infinite amount of time wherever and whenever. Kinda makes it weird that the WoD timeline is still up as well, unless I forgot a part where he made it permanent? But still...

Time is incredibly faulting in WoW, and honestly, if they retconned what's stated in Chronicle 3, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Houle]

But Sargeras doesn't want everything dead. The Legion never sought total eradication of all life. They sought total conquest, which is different.

That's why countless Legion servants were recruited in exchange for their lives. The nightborne, eredar, and many other species joined the Legion so that their life would be spared. Very clearly the Legion does not blindly seek to eradicate all life like Jailer or Lich King.

Uhm, yes he does want everything dead? Maybe read chronicles again?
But he needs troops to make it happen faster, so if a race wants to join him, why not. It simply accelerates the process
The void is the force that wants concquest and domination. A universe of madness. the legion wants a dead one, so life may begin anew, without the voids influence

[Aucald]

That is true. The Illidan Novel is also kinda weird with this, as the Legion can just invade an infinite amount of timelines for an infinite amount of time wherever and whenever. Kinda makes it weird that the WoD timeline is still up as well, unless I forgot a part where he made it permanent? But still...

Time is incredibly faulting in WoW, and honestly, if they retconned what's stated in Chronicle 3, I wouldn't be surprised.

It's assumed that whatever Kairoz did with the Vision of Time somehow fixed or strengthened the AU timeline, but based on the Mag'har recruitment scenario it seems that that timeline is already failing (e.g. whatever it was causing the world to "die" and bringing the Mag'har and Lightbound to war over it). Basically, the WoD timeline got a bit of a boost of stability but it's already crumbling, as well; and is now completely inaccessible and isolated.

They could well retcon it *again*, sure; but hopefully not given that completely and utter screw-up that was WoD and the whole "infinite timeline, infinite Legion" debacle. That door is better off closed, sealed, and forgotten about.