1. #1481
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    They aren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't invented them back when the first Chronicles came out. The Eternal Ones weren't in the cosmic chart either, it doesn't mean anything. In truth there was only Light in the beginning, as was stated in the Chronicles:



    The Void was then created as the endless sea of shimmering Light eventually gave birth to pockets of cold nothingness.
    The Eternal One's aren't in the Cosmic Chart because literally no one knew about the Death Cosmology (Especially considering the Cosmic side of the Chronicles is confirmed to be viewed from the Titan's perspective).

    "Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light." The Arbiter and the Jailer also existed before Reality became a thing. Doesn't mean they were the only guys there. Also, Light had to have been made by something. The energy had to have been made. Void had to have been created to oppose the Light. What would've caused these 2 sides of occur?

    The First Ones. Also, just because they're not in a chart, that doesn't mean anything. The Eternal Ones are still bound to Death, which means they are still bound to the Cosmic Chart. And Light, the primal force that existed before creation began (This applies with beings like the Jailer and the Eternal Ones as well, but they're another topic), is still part of the Cosmic Chart. The Cosmic Chart shows the forces that keep everything together, yes. But, what made these forces? What caused them to be polar opposites but equal? Ya know? The Chronicles only showed us a beginners view of the Warcraft Cosmos. What we're seeing in SL and beyond is the actual in depth view of it all.

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    They did SHAPE the Cosmos, meaning they made it something when it was once nothing. They made the Light and Shadow. Come on now.
    Last edited by HighlordJohnstone; 2020-10-09 at 03:00 PM.

  2. #1482
    I'm starting to think the Jailer/Sargeras parallels are intentional and he may be some kind of alternate timeline version of him to tie in to the lingering "infinite" theme thats in the background of the expansion.

    The First Ones being Titan ripoffs are a stretch (see: Elune has always been a mystery and implied to be above them) and have more going for them than "Titans 2" considering the Titans didn't make the Light/Void even in the oldest lore.

  3. #1483
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I'm starting to think the Jailer/Sargeras parallels are intentional and he may be some kind of alternate timeline version of him to tie in to the lingering "infinite" theme thats in the background of the expansion.
    Well, the Jailer is basically just pure evil. Sargeras is a mad-man who was hell bent on stopping something he couldn't really prevent (Not to mention he was also being fooled by the Dreadlords). They have no true parallels outside of: They're bad dudes their respective pantheon hates, they want to destroy creation and claim Azeroth, and they have an infinite army. That's really it. (It's something the Void Lords kinda share as well, except they're hated by the Light and other Cosmic Forces, and not a respective Pantheon).

    The Jailer is actually far worse than Sargeras, apparently. For he just wants to kill everything and everyone cause he feels like it.

  4. #1484
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    The Eternal One's aren't in the Cosmic Chart because literally no one knew about the Death Cosmology (Especially considering the Cosmic side of the Chronicles is confirmed to be viewed from the Titan's perspective).

    "Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light." The Arbiter and the Jailer also existed before Reality became a thing. Doesn't mean they were the only guys there. Also, Light had to have been made by something. The energy had to have been made. Void had to have been created to oppose the Light. What would've caused these 2 sides of occur?

    The First Ones. Also, just because they're not in a chart, that doesn't mean anything. The Eternal Ones are still bound to Death, which means they are still bound to the Cosmic Chart. And Light, the primal force that existed before creation began (This applies with beings like the Jailer and the Eternal Ones as well, but they're another topic), is still part of the Cosmic Chart. The Cosmic Chart shows the forces that keep everything together, yes. But, what made these forces? What caused them to be polar opposites but equal? Ya know? The Chronicles only showed us a beginners view of the Warcraft Cosmos. What we're seeing in SL and beyond is the actual in depth view of it all.

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    They did SHAPE the Cosmos, meaning they made it something when it was once nothing. They made the Light and Shadow. Come on now.
    "Shape" doesn't mean they create something, it means they give it form. If I shape some clay into an object it doesn't mean I created that clay. As for the Eternal Ones, they weren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't made them up back then, but now we know they would be in the Death category. So just because the First ones are not in that chart doesn't mean they are above it.

    You're a hypocrite, you claim this is just your fan-theory then get mad when I don't agree with it. Since it's just a theory I don't have to take it as fact.

  5. #1485
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    "Shape" doesn't mean they create something, it means they give it form. If I shape some clay into an object it doesn't mean I created that clay. As for the Eternal Ones, they weren't in the cosmic chart because Blizzard hadn't made them up back then, but now we know they would be in the Death category. So just because the First ones are not in that chart doesn't mean they are above it.

    You're a hypocrite, you claim this is just your fan-theory then get mad when I don't agree with it. Since it's just a theory I don't have to take it as fact.
    But...they do create. They literally created Maldraxxus cause the Shadowlands needed a defense system. The hell?

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    Also, I'm not mad. I'm just criticizing your points.

  6. #1486
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    But...they do create. They literally created Maldraxxus cause the Shadowlands needed a defense system. The hell?

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    Also, I'm not mad. I'm just criticizing your points.
    Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.

  7. #1487
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.
    Well, yes, you're right. But the First One's still don't fit within the Cosmic Chart at all, and someone like the Jailer literally started shaking when our character activated one of their relics.

  8. #1488
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Doesn't mean anything, the Eternal Ones of Bastion, Revendreth, and Ardenweald created their own realms as well, the titans created the Emerald Dream, the Old Gods had their own realms, etc. Creating realms is not a noteworthy feat.
    dude, you are clinging to OLD canon. chronicles are already outdated af, and the new infos weve seen so far indicate that the first ones are what their name implies, the FIRST things to ever exist. its dumb, and trust me, i dont like the entire thing either, but it is what it is.
    first ones are now what the titans used to be, the big gods who made and shaped everything.
    void lords and their possible light counterpart are probably second, arbiter/jailer third and titans fourth (specifically titans tho, since world souls came into existence with the universe itself, but they need to slumber and mature for such a long time that they didnt "hatch" until much later)

    and the thing about n'zoth and the entirety of reality at stake in ny'alotha means oviously that if he won, he would spawn a void titan, which would then destroy reality. all n'zoth was doing in 8.3 was trying to copy ny'alotha on azeroth, rewriting the timeline of the planet.

    power chart rn is not really measurable bc we dont know much about a void lords individual power, nor have we seen the jailer do much until now. well kick denathrius's ass tho, so that doesnt scream ultra-powerful for the "normal" eternal ones
    what we can probably say is that azeroth is up there with the absolute top dogs, and above the void lords, since EVERYONE is trying to get her
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-10-09 at 04:30 PM.
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  9. #1489
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    dude, you are clinging to OLD canon. chronicles are already outdated af, and the new infos weve seen so far indicate that the first ones are what their name implies, the FIRST things to ever exist. its dumb, and trust me, i dont like the entire thing either, but it is what it is.
    first ones are now what the titans used to be, the big gods who made and shaped everything.
    void lords and their possible light counterpart are probably second, arbiter/jailer third and titans fourth (specifically titans tho, since world souls came into existence with the universe itself, but they need to slumber and mature for such a long time that they didnt "hatch" until much later)

    and the thing about n'zoth and the entirety of reality at stake in ny'alotha means oviously that if he won, he would spawn a void titan, which would then destroy reality. all n'zoth was doing in 8.3 was trying to copy ny'alotha on azeroth, rewriting the timeline of the planet.

    power chart rn is not really measurable bc we dont know much about a void lords individual power, nor have we seen the jailer do much until now. well kick denathrius's ass tho, so that doesnt scream ultra-powerful for the "normal" eternal ones
    what we can probably say is that azeroth is up there with the absolute top dogs, and above the void lords, since EVERYONE is trying to get her
    How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.

  10. #1490
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.
    *as much as Titans know.

  11. #1491
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.
    It became outdated when Blizzard said "Oh yeah, the Chronicles are of the Titan's perspective".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    *as much as Titans know.
    Literally this. Doesn't help that the descriptions are kinda fucked as well, like how the Dreadlords were "made in the Nether", which might not even be true anymore, etc etc.

  12. #1492
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How are they outdated when they were released literally 3 years ago? This isn't some manual that came out 20 years ago, this trilogy is 2/3 years old. How is it outdated? In the Chronicles it's stated that the Light was the beginning of all.
    come on, this has been discussed hundreds of times now.
    because they already said that chronicles was merely from the "titans point of view"...which means its no longer factual canon/lore bible. its how the titans think everything went down.
    its already heavily implied in SL that nathrezim corrupted themselves with fel, to infiltrate the realm of disorder. chronicles straight up describes them as one of the original demon races born from the nether.
    hell, it even started in legion. in chonicles it was said that the titans died, and only mere fragments of their spirits survived. the last remnants of them bound with the keepers. in legion, they are all suddenly up and well again, with no explanation whatsoever.
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-10-09 at 04:56 PM.
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  13. #1493
    Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion. This is how power creep works, now you're all scared of the Jailer and these "mysterious" first ones, but in 10.0 Blizzard will drop a lot of info about the Void Lords and you will all forget about Jailer.

  14. #1494
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion.
    And they will die effortlessly to loot whores.

  15. #1495
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Whatever, I know the Void Lords and the Light will be hyped up once again when 10.0 turns out to be a Void and Light expansion. This is how power creep works, now you're all scared of the Jailer and these "mysterious" first ones, but in 10.0 Blizzard will drop a lot of info about the Void Lords and you will all forget about Jailer.
    wow, what news. its not like its been like that for quite a few years now.
    and after the inevitable void lord xpac, theyll hype up new things as even bigger and worse, and well forget about the void lords.
    so you just destroyed your own argument
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  16. #1496
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    wow, what news. its not like its been like that for quite a few years now.
    and after the inevitable void lord xpac, theyll hype up new things as even bigger and worse, and well forget about the void lords.
    so you just destroyed your own argument
    Lol why do you have to be so salty with every reply?

  17. #1497
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And they will die effortlessly to loot whores.
    Literally this also. Void Lords ain't shit.

  18. #1498
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Lol why do you have to be so salty with every reply?
    Probably because your posts are particularly annoying of late.

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  19. #1499
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Lol why do you have to be so salty with every reply?
    im not. i stopped taking the lore seriousy quite some time ago. the salty one here is you, because the void lords wont remain the big bads forever. which means alleria wont be associated with the biggest and baddest enemy of the game anymore. and you dont like that, bc shes your self-insert
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-10-09 at 05:29 PM.
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  20. #1500
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    so my read of this is quite different. it's a hot take w some speculation built in so hear me out.

    firstly, remember that the titans were considered "gods" on azeroth. as i've said previously, we can think of titans vs. legion, order vs. disorder, as the central driving conflict around azeroth for most of the lore. the opposing forces seem to always be at odds with each other, as we've seen with light and void. they can also veer to other territory, what with light and void attacking SL. based on that, i would think that since chronicle is from titan POV, the titans ordered "reality" at the center of the chart. it's clear that the shadowlands already exist in a different plane than "reality." this would mean the titans didn't order the shadowlands, at all. i would think the titans were just charged with ordering a separate part of the cosmos, due to their place as the big guys of "order." this wouldn't make the first ones "titans 2," this would make them two different things. here's why:

    the titans actively oppose and wage war on the other cosmology forces. we've seen them constantly messing with disorder in the burning crusade, but we've also seen them messing with the void by yanking old gods off of planets. i don't think the titans were ever nearly as important as they thought they were, they're probably just equal in stature to something like the void lords or sargy as the leaders of a force. also, keep in mind that the disorder force existed but didn't have a guide until sargeras took charge of it, as far as we know. so tldr, i don't think the titans were ever interested in balancing or ordering the cosmos: they were interested in establishing *order*, which is a force. balance of the forces would indicate some level of disorder happening as well (something something zaheer from korra saying "chaos is the natural order"), but either way, i would wager that the first ones were interested in balance, but the titans were interested in dominance. they never say "yup let's remove sargy then give demons a home since they're just creatures of disorder from the twisting nether and other planets" (imagine, other planets having sentient life? in MY azeroth centric warcraft?).

    if any of this is right, it would make the first ones and titans different. the first ones made places for everyone to exist and chill and balance (think "the avatar"), the titans just did that for a single plane and then were like "oh, we know all about order. let us force it on everyone else. because we know best." subsets of the titans would then present themselves as the aspects, who thought they had an ancient purpose on azeroth as well. idk, i just think that for speculation now that the warcraft story is moving beyond azeroth and into space, we need to remember that the end game of this plot is balance between 6 wildly primal things, not "the heroes of azeroth prevailed once again!" if anything, i wonder if azeroth the titan could, when she awakens, be one of the only titans to not force her version of order on the rest of the universe like the rest of them did. this doesn't make me feel bad about working with/for them back when we thought of them as our gods, as khadgar says in legion, bc at that time it was living creatures preserving their well-being fighting off the legion. but now, i think it's fair to look back and go "hmm, maybe not." idk. 60% formed thought.
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