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  1. #1661
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    We know your power in the Shadowlands is proportionate to your strength/relevance in life, so stronger souls have more anima. Unless the humiliation of being murked by a bunch of no name Not!Val'kyr sends you down several categories in that running, they should still be good to go. And this is not an issue about a story yet to be told, it's a fundamental problem of the premise. The fact that the characters were captured since Beta isn't proof of itself in it not being a nonsensical plot point, that's circular logic. The method used is stupid, but the plot point itself is stupid because the setup doesn't make sense and makes every participant look like a tard - the heroes for going around defenseless and being easily overcome by a handful of guys in seconds, the villains for not taking a move there's no reason for them not to take. Furthermore, like Mehrunes says, we know how the story ends - they're captured so we can free them and this whole chain of events has no consequences. If the villains did what was best for them and killed them, this would not be possible so the Doylist purpose would fail, ditto if the heroes were protected. This is an archetypal Idiot Plot where every character has to be a moron for events to take place in the fashion they do.
    I assume death extracts a toll regardless, though; and anima has be expended to return unhoused souls to a physical form - so why make the expenditure to do that when you can just abduct the targets and bring them straight to you as they are, strengths fully intact to be put to use later. I mean he's completely successful in doing that, so why go through the extra steps? Plus, you get the added bonus of implying to the rest of Azeroth: "hey, I'm powerful enough now to just take whatever and whoever I want right out from under you."

    I find the criticism cliched and overwrought - I don't recall any specific arguments like this when we knew the leaders were captured months ago, so why is it a problem now when this little connective bit? I mean, is this really the hill to die on in light of the fact that we knew they were captured? There's nothing circular about it, this is just complaining about the means not meeting your expectations for reasons that I find inarticulate at best, and base grumbling at worst. Do the Mawsworn Val'kyr need some kind of elaborate backstory to make it possible for them to abduct people? Does Sylvanas herself need to appear in every case to underscore her own threat? The point about the faction leaders walking around "defenseless" is especially silly - what, do you that they're on guard 24x7 or something in the safety of their own cities? I mean all of them appear to be in the capitols, basically doing their own thing. Baine's crossing a bridge in Thunder Bluff, and Anduin is visiting his father's memorial in the safety of Stormwind - it's obvious they don't expect winged foes to come out of nowhere and ensnare them in seconds (and who really would). There's nothing idiotic about it, really. The only real point of complaint here is that they weren't afforded the chance to put up a fight (except for Tyrande), but then that's also the point of the manner of their abduction. If the Mawsworn Val'kyr gave them a moment to fight the outcomes might've been very different, but it was a lightning attack meant to take them off guard, and it was entirely successful.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #1662
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    But that's not the same deal with the chains, whose power we saw several months ago when Sylvanas defeated Bolvar. We know what they're capable of, and so it's neither super plot-convenient nor inexplicable.
    the chains didn't defeat bolvar, in fact bolvar broke a lot of those, so again, no, the chains are not that much powerful, they are actually easy to break, so those ones are apparently even more powerful that can silence and do what they wish

    Sure, the Lich King broke them - a very powerful entity with his own Death-oriented skillset. They also instantly reformed and continued to keep him ensnared, which makes it something of a meaningless distinction.
    apparently this LK is weaker than Arthas, so not a problem here, besides, he didn't break with his own death-oriented skillset, he literally broke thn with his hammer, no death skillset, just raw strength, you are telling me a tauren or Anduin ith the light power can't do that?

    I somehow doubt those clouds were normal, and further would answer to a Shaman's call. I also don't think a sudden windstorm is really going to bother powerful Mawsworn Val'kyr, either; they're not birds after all. Based on Anduin's abduction they likely also only had a few seconds to respond to the sudden threat, and most people would probably be temporarily flummoxed by an unexpected attack from unknown beings materializing unexpectedly from a sudden cloud mass.
    1- you don't call the clouds you can the air itself
    2- those are not "powerful mawsworn" those are mere mobs that we will by the dozens, they are not abnormal powerful to be so much angerous, thats why i said you would need like 20 to make more believeble.
    3- they literally say the skies darkening they saw shit was coming to then, unless they are morons

    Perhaps if he'd had time to react, sure. But again, he only managed to draw his sword before being ensnared. You argument is akin to complaining about not being able to get a spell before before another player CC's you in PvP.
    he saw then comming and he had time to take out his sword, is enough time tor eact unless he was a dipshit, once again he is a light user, burst a explosion of light from itself and broke the chains like anyone would do

    and pls, no with the chains of silence

    Presumably they're powerful named Mawsworn to be directly in service of Sylvanas (the Jailer's current second), and especially to be tasked with such a mission. Not that that matters overly, really.

    but they enver showed that, they are random mobs fishing people., like i said, lame


    As I said before, they have. Thrall, Baine, Vol'jin, Jaina, and many other faction leaders have been imprisoned or captured in the past. This isn't an act without precedent of some kind.
    just because they were imprisoned in the past don't mean you can give a free pass to this ridiculous imprisonment, the imprison before had good reasons, or it made sense, the problem is never then being imprisoned, like you are trying to make it is, the problem is how stupid and pathetic it was

    Watch the cinematic again - the chains reform from arrows already present, and before Sylvanas herself reappears from her concealing smoke shroud.
    they didn't reform instantly.

    I assume Tyrande is only growing in power, especially given now that we know that the power will eventually consume her. This is likely meant to be an indicator of that rising power, especially in light of the fact that she is apparently killing Nathanos soon enough when the Scourge event starts in the pre-patch.
    ah yes, more plot convient to explain more plot-holes, everyone just keep becoming strong when its needed

    sometimes you just sit down read everything slowly and no matte how you spin it you now you are staring at a dumpster

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I guess I'm not really seeing the comedy people keep referring to.


    its top comedy cinematic

  3. #1663
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Azerite comes from the very core of the world, so why should it be weaker? There is absolutely no reason for it to be heck one could even make the argument of the opposite, Azeroth is growing stronger the closer she gets to waking up.
    As the Titan gets older and stronger, it becomes comparatively difficult for that power to be bled from her? I mean you can take your pick as to why - but it was evident when Azerite itself was introduced to the story. It was very obviously not in the Well of Eternity class of powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Over the top

    Faction leaders effortlessly being snatched
    Greymane screaming
    The narration itself about Sylvanas coming for them all now and how people should be afraid
    We've been over the faction leaders being kidnapped thing, so I guess just agree to disagree. As for Greymane screaming, I don't really get the memeification of this - I mean he's pissed off, and he has every right to be? What's over the top about that? If you were unofficially standing guard over your liege and someone just yanked them up and away without preamble you'd probably be pissed off as well. I agree Bolvar's speech is kind of hammy, but it's also pretty much par for the course for WoW, all the way back to Medivh's proclamations back in WC3. It's suspense theater Warcraft-style, and if *that* is still surprising then I'm not really sure what to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He brought nothing to deal with the blight, in any capacity, meaning his whole assault would have ended if it hadn't been for Jaina saving his bacon. This is pure stupidity on his part and a perfect example of blizz storytelling.
    Prior to Jaina freezing the Blight (itself something of a revelation), there is nothing to really deal with the Blight aside from gas masks. He likely didn't think Sylvanas would deploy it on her own home turf, as stated above - but I'd agree he probably should've had masks on hand to at least cover the possibility. Of course I don't know if that's technology the Alliance really has, though; as we never really see them field gas masks in any other engagement either. I imagine those masks aren't your normal kind of technology, and the means and method of their manufacture is probably a secret of the Forsaken and/or the Horde.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald
    I find the criticism cliched and overwrought - I don't recall any specific arguments like this when we knew the leaders were captured months ago, so why is it a problem now when this little connective bit? I mean, is this really the hill to die on in light of the fact that we knew they were captured? There's nothing circular about it, this is just complaining about the means not meeting your expectations for reasons that I find inarticulate at best, and base grumbling at worst.
    Dude, please, we were arguing about this the second that was datamined and I explained at length even then why this was unnecessary retardation, and I did this when the only aspect that was missing was the method, not the premise, hence why I won't bother with a new response to the first part of your reply, as I already answered it months ago. I attacked the premise even then and I attacked it knowing its conclusion - namely nothing. Here's a refresher:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    ...But rather, the abduction story is unnecessary and has problems that are more trouble to solve than they're worth - from how it's done, to why limit it to a few people if it's not mundane agents but the Jailor's people crossing over and of course - why not just kill them? If dead, they go to the Maw anyhow and give it resources and it's not like anyone outside would know the difference. The whole concept of needing bait after you've put a hole in reality is itself dubious. It's a whole lot of work for not much pay off, whereas if those mentioned were just the vanguard who went in first, you still have all the same pieces in play, you can hit all the general beats and you don't bury yourself in such unnecessary pablum.
    I even proposed an alternative that would skip all this and accomplish the same beat of having them captured without requiring people to be morons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Cutting the entire abduction bit is the best bet. In fact, cutting is really all you need to do - cut the Jailor's dialogue because it's unspeakably generic and downplays an otherwise menacing setting. You can keep Sylvanas gloating over Anduin if you really must. But the abduction thing makes little sense and you can accomplish the same goal + exposit over the time difference in our world and the Maw by having the ones we see in the questline like Baine, Thrall, Jaina etc. hop in first with a vanguard because they want to help stop the breach, then we get sidetracked by say, a dark ranger ambush or some shit, there's the whole argument with Calia and Tyrande and then everyone heads in, whereupon we find the status quo we see in the quests. Have someone ask "Wow, didn't you leave just an hour ago" and they can exposit about how in the Maw it's been a week. No loyalists with burlap sacks infiltrating Stormwind and capturing Jaina required.
    Nothing has changed in the premise that has made it more worthwhile in the interim, so now we can add attacking the method to the roster. The method this is done is cheap and while definitely quite funny makes those people dumb, the villains for reasons already described. As for the heroes, are you seriously telling me that the King of Stormwind going completely unguarded or Jaina 'I can take on the guys who killed a Titan' Proudmoore can't take two guys? Because I can log to Stormwind right now and see the gryphons. This plot point was already poor and it failed to justify itself in its execution.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-15 at 02:20 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As the Titan gets older and stronger, it becomes comparatively difficult for that power to be bled from her? I mean you can take your pick as to why - but it was evident when Azerite itself was introduced to the story. It was very obviously not in the Well of Eternity class of powerful.
    Why should it?

    Prior to Jaina freezing the Blight (itself something of a revelation), there is nothing to really deal with the Blight aside from gas masks. He likely didn't think Sylvanas would deploy it on her own home turf, as stated above - but I'd agree he probably should've had masks on hand to at least cover the possibility. Of course I don't know if that's technology the Alliance really has, though; as we never really see them field gas masks in any other engagement either. I imagine those masks aren't your normal kind of technology, and the means and method of their manufacture is probably a secret of the Forsaken and/or the Horde.
    It is still sheer stupidity, especially since he had seen that she was more than willing to gundown her own people just a few weeks prior, attacking undercity without any kind of precaution against the blight is the epitome of incompetence, no matter how you look at it and no one would have made such a stupid move, if they didn't want to show off jelsa saving the day.

  6. #1666
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    The kidnapping is probably one of Sylvanas' galaxy brain master plan that NEVER backfire
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  7. #1667
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the chains didn't defeat bolvar, in fact bolvar broke a lot of those, so again, no, the chains are not that much powerful, they are actually easy to break, so those ones are apparently even more powerful that can silence and do what they wish
    They definitely seemed to - they weakened him and eventually (over just a few moments of their formation) all he could really do was struggle to get free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    apparently this LK is weaker than Arthas, so not a problem here, besides, he didn't break with his own death-oriented skillset, he literally broke thn with his hammer, no death skillset, just raw strength, you are telling me a tauren or Anduin ith the light power can't do that?
    He broke them and it didn't matter, so again, meaningless distinction. I'm saying he was a creature of Death, and so he may have additional defense against whatever magic the chains use (presumably also Death). Anduin and the others are not, and so may not have had even the level of resistance Bolvar exhibited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    1- you don't call the clouds you can the air itself
    2- those are not "powerful mawsworn" those are mere mobs that we will by the dozens, they are not abnormal powerful to be so much angerous, thats why i said you would need like 20 to make more believeble.
    3- they literally say the skies darkening they saw shit was coming to then, unless they are morons
    1.) Again, probably wouldn't have mattered. The Val'kyr aren't birds, and they probably don't use the air to stay aloft in the first place.
    2.) You have no idea what they were or weren't, so who's to really say. I'm saying they're powerful based on what they do, you're saying they're nameless mooks based on... well, based on nothing. Either way, neither of us know how powerful they are.
    3.) "Oh look the sky is darkening, this means dark angel-like beings are going to materialize any moment now to try to kidnap us." That's a silly argument and would require the expectation of omniscience on the part of the leaders in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he saw then comming and he had time to take out his sword, is enough time tor eact unless he was a dipshit, once again he is a light user, burst a explosion of light from itself and broke the chains like anyone would do

    and pls, no with the chains of silence
    Apparently not. I think your expectations here are unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    just because they were imprisoned in the past don't mean you can give a free pass to this ridiculous imprisonment, the imprison before had good reasons, or it made sense, the problem is never then being imprisoned, like you are trying to make it is, the problem is how stupid and pathetic it was
    If I agreed with you that it was ridiculous, but I don't. You've yet to really provide a convincing argument beyond reiterating your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they didn't reform instantly.
    Then we're apparently not talking about the same cinematic. The part you want is right here, he breaks the chain at 2:54 and it reforms at 2:55 - I'd call that pretty much instant, but I if you want to get technical we'll say it reforms in a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ah yes, more plot convient to explain more plot-holes, everyone just keep becoming strong when its needed
    It's neither convenient nor a plot-hole, really. It's the story being told.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    sometimes you just sit down read everything slowly and no matte how you spin it you now you are staring at a dumpster
    I can't really help or hinder you there, your opinions are your own at the end of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post


    its top comedy cinematic
    You can take a still of anyone in the act of speaking or shouting and make a funny image out of it, doesn't really change anything of note. Memes aren't facts, either; even if the image is hilarious it's also ripped entirely out of its context to make it funny.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Why should it?
    Why wouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is still sheer stupidity, especially since he had seen that she was more than willing to gundown her own people just a few weeks prior, attacking undercity without any kind of precaution against the blight is the epitome of incompetence, no matter how you look at it and no one would have made such a stupid move, if they didn't want to show off jelsa saving the day.
    Again, you have to assume there were precautions to take - and there might not have been. I'd agree it was rash, but Sylvanas had also just torched the home of the Night Elves and killed a majority of their kind, so some rashness is also probably understandable as well.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #1668
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I assume death extracts a toll regardless, though; and anima has be expended to return unhoused souls to a physical form - so why make the expenditure to do that when you can just abduct the targets and bring them straight to you as they are, strengths fully intact to be put to use later. I mean he's completely successful in doing that, so why go through the extra steps? Plus, you get the added bonus of implying to the rest of Azeroth: "hey, I'm powerful enough now to just take whatever and whoever I want right out from under you."
    Given how Anduin didn't stream his own kidnapping on Twitch, your point is flat out nonsensical. Azerothians had no way of knowing whether Jailer just kidnapped them or kidnapped them and then killed them. As such, the Jailer already fulfilled his purpose of showing how he can kidnap whoever he pleases. Them being still alive after that point is completely immaterial to said purpose.

    And please, the Jailer has numerous deities working for him. What the hell would he need Baine for at all, let alone spare a thought to the (completely unfounded) power loss he'd suffer on death? Especially since as the art book just told us a week ago, Jailer's armies are souls that were sent to the Maw that he broke and bent to his will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I find the criticism cliched and overwrought - I don't recall any specific arguments like this when we knew the leaders were captured months ago, so why is it a problem now when this little connective bit? I mean, is this really the hill to die on in light of the fact that we knew they were captured? There's nothing circular about it, this is just complaining about the means not meeting your expectations for reasons that I find inarticulate at best, and base grumbling at worst. Do the Mawsworn Val'kyr need some kind of elaborate backstory to make it possible for them to abduct people? Does Sylvanas herself need to appear in every case to underscore her own threat? The point about the faction leaders walking around "defenseless" is especially silly - what, do you that they're on guard 24x7 or something in the safety of their own cities? I mean all of them appear to be in the capitols, basically doing their own thing. Baine's crossing a bridge in Thunder Bluff, and Anduin is visiting his father's memorial in the safety of Stormwind - it's obvious they don't expect winged foes to come out of nowhere and ensnare them in seconds (and who really would). There's nothing idiotic about it, really. The only real point of complaint here is that they weren't afforded the chance to put up a fight (except for Tyrande), but then that's also the point of the manner of their abduction. If the Mawsworn Val'kyr gave them a moment to fight the outcomes might've been very different, but it was a lightning attack meant to take them off guard, and it was entirely successful.
    And here you're just making things up (and for some godforsaken reason still trying to pin it on how they were kidnapped even after it was hammered home how this isn't even the main idiocy of this whole setup). Because I most certainly recall arguments against Anduin et al's survival being a sad plot contrivance with no in-story logic behind it at least since the quests hit the beta.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-10-15 at 02:38 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #1669
    So is no one going to point out the fact that Anduin Wrynn...

    King of Stormwind

    High King of the Alliance

    Supreme Commander of all Alliance armies

    ... did not have a single bodyguard accompanying him?

    Looks like the Alliance is truly desperate, they can't even afford royal guards. Turalyon and Alleria, please fix this mess that Anduin left behind!
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  10. #1670
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Why wouldn't it?
    Because both is titan blood and minuscule amounts of it can create power batteries that pretty much never run out of power, when people hold Azerite in their hands they can feel overwhelming power, even believing they can ascend to something akin to godhood with it, yet when the stuff is actually used it is hardly more potent than black powder.



    Again, you have to assume there were precautions to take - and there might not have been. I'd agree it was rash, but Sylvanas had also just torched the home of the Night Elves and killed a majority of their kind, so some rashness is also probably understandable as well.
    You don't attack an enemy you know has a weapon that could potentially wipe out your entire army, unless you have a counter to it. It is just that simple, anything else is suicidal lunacy.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-10-15 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #1671
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Dude, please, we were arguing about this the second that was datamined and I explained at length even then why this was unnecessary retardation, and I did this when the only aspect that was missing was the method, not the premise, hence why I won't bother with a new response to the first part of your reply, as I already answered it months ago. I attacked the premise even then and I attacked it knowing its conclusion - namely nothing. Here's a refresher.
    You kind of complain about everything, though; so that's not really going to stand out in any real sense. I do see I basically predicted a version of what actually happened though - a surprise attack by the Jailer's agents basically materializing out of nowhere. I just picked the wrong agents. The whole "why not just kill them" thing was already asked and answered, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Nothing has changed in the premise that has made it more worthwhile in the interim, so now we can add attacking the method to the roster. The method this is done is cheap and while definitely quite funny makes those people dumb, the villains for reasons already described. As for the heroes, are you seriously telling me that the King of Stormwind going completely unguarded or Jaina 'I can take on the guys who killed a Titan' Proudmoore can't take two guys? Because I can log to Stormwind right now and see the gryphons. This plot point was already poor and it failed to justify itself in its execution.
    The gryphon thing's already been mentioned, and I really doubt the swiss-cheese gryphon defense (itself far from foolproof, as demonstrated by the Stormwind Extraction) is going to stop Mawsworn Val'kyr from doing what they'd come to do. Like I said above, I don't think Anduin is going to surround himself in a retinue of guards prepped for attack in the heart of his own city after peace with the Horde had just been achieved, especially not to visit his father's memorial. He had Genn with him, after all; though Genn's not going to be able to do much against an entirely unexpected enemy attacking from the air that was able to just materialize in the heart of Stormwind. So yes, I guess I am seriously telling you that? Not sure why I need to, though.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #1672
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    To be fair Anduin should really have been more guarded in Stormwind, this city has literally had a dragon come out of nowhere and burn it with no defense against that happening in the past before going on to fuck up the world just by flying. The idea that they have not even conceived or created some form of minor resistance to mitigate a similar or lesser aerial force attacking or such occurrence again is ludicrous. Not to mention Anduin should be well aware of things that can come flying down and fucking up your life cause of his history.

    But I guess Shaw literally being too busy sucking to provide a proper guard is enough of a handwave. /s And he still keeps his position...
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  13. #1673
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Because both is titan blood and minuscule amounts of it can create power batteries that pretty much never run out of power, when people hold Azerite in their hands they can feel overwhelming power, even believing they can ascend to something akin to godhood with it, yet when the stuff is actually used it is hardly more potent than black powder.
    It's manifestly not the same substance and doesn't have nearly the same power, so that's neither here nor there. As for the "why" of it I can't say, so I can only chalk it up to a quirk of Titan physiology of something. Beyond speculating, you could just go to Twitter and ask I suppose? I don't have an answer for that beyond "it's just not the same."

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You don't attack an enemy you know has a weapon that could potentially wipe out your entire army, unless you have a counter to it. It is just that simply, anything else is suicidal lunacy.
    It doesn't wipe their entire army out, though, it only forces a retreat from the field. Their army's just fine, as it ends up - and Jaina's arrival to the field allows them to resume their advance.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #1674
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You kind of complain about everything, though; so that's not really going to stand out in any real sense. I do see I basically predicted a version of what actually happened though - a surprise attack by the Jailer's agents basically materializing out of nowhere. I just picked the wrong agents. The whole "why not just kill them" thing was already asked and answered, though.
    Predicting the means doesn't make the means better. The 'why not just kill them' point has never been satisfactorily answered and can't be in a Watsonian sense - only from a plot perspective in the sense of us having to rescue them consequence free, having them seemingly raise the stakes earlier to not go there. I already provided a constructive alternative in that same topic that would preserve the core of the plot beat they're going for, so you can't even complain about the other posters, though I'm not surprised you've pivoted to a personal attack given how piss weak your position is, since as you can plainly see in this thread just about everyone else, regardless of factional bias have brought up virtually the same points as to why this is nonsense.

    The gryphon thing's already been mentioned, and I really doubt the swiss-cheese gryphon defense (itself far from foolproof, as demonstrated by the Stormwind Extraction) is going to stop Mawsworn Val'kyr from doing what they'd come to do. Like I said above, I don't think Anduin is going to surround himself in a retinue of guards prepped for attack in the heart of his own city after peace with the Horde had just been achieved, especially not to visit his father's memorial. He had Genn with him, after all; though Genn's not going to be able to do much against an entirely unexpected enemy attacking from the air that was able to just materialize in the heart of Stormwind. So yes, I guess I am seriously telling you that? Not sure why I need to, though.
    The President doesn't go anywhere without the secret service and he doesn't live in a world where people can quite literally go invisible and stab him and where the top prison has been broken out of and infiltrated every other year and the capital has been torched by a firebreathing dragon. The King of Stormwind being unguarded is not at all serious and ditto there being no one on alert in that very moment. It also isn't like this wouldn't be equally as easy to solve - just have a shot of the gryphons flying in only to be blasted by the Mawsworn or phased through or what have you, then we also get a cool visual and allay this issue. It isn't that hard. There's no reason to defend something mediocre when the means to not have it be so require barely any effort.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-10-15 at 02:56 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #1675
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's manifestly not the same substance and doesn't have nearly the same power, so that's neither here nor there. As for the "why" of it I can't say, so I can only chalk it up to a quirk of Titan physiology of something. Beyond speculating, you could just go to Twitter and ask I suppose? I don't have an answer for that beyond "it's just not the same."
    I can give you a definite answer, blizz did not clarify the whole thing as they should have done from the get go, why is this titan blood so weak nobody knows and nobody can know for certain, because the story never explained crucial details of the power-source pretty much the entire expansion revolved around, because blizz sucks incredibly with details.


    It doesn't wipe their entire army out, though, it only forces a retreat from the field. Their army's just fine, as it ends up - and Jaina's arrival to the field allows them to resume their advance.
    Doesn't matter in the slightest, it is the potential danger that is important. Jaina was not part of the plan and Anduin literally said jep it is game over, meaning his entire assault is a tactical joke and he had no way to deal with the blight, meaning the assault in that form should have never ever happened. If you cannot overcome the weapon of an enemy you do not throw people at it in the hopes it goes away, unless you have so many people your enemy will run out of munitions. You can either counter it or use a similar weapon, which might force both sides in a stalemate of mutual destruction.

  16. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Turalyon and Alleria, please fix this mess that Anduin left behind!
    These sadists will only make things worse. Expect a military dictatorship in Stormwind.

  17. #1677
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    These sadists will only make things worse. Expect a military dictatorship in Stormwind.
    The many should serve the few. Order, law, peace.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  18. #1678
    tbh, I think, that Genn should have saved Anduin. Old Wolf regrets that his son sacrificed himself to save him, so he could have nice moment, sacrificing himself for Boy King, to him he has Fatherly feelings. He could have died in Toghast. and Anduin would change more for Fanaticism of Holy Light and Turalyon would serve as new advisor for him. not as same fatherly figure as Varian or Genn had been, and it would make him more depressed. idk

    now he will be absurdly saved from Thorgast in Patch 9.1 (we all know how much Blizzard sucks at delivering good story in patches x.1 and x.2, with only exception MoP).

    he will be horrified by what he saw there and wont remember it in a day or two

  19. #1679
    Is it too much to ask to have like 4 or 5 mawsworn come in flank some guardsmen and then do the all powerful chain thing to capture Anduin?

    Lets be honest here, the cinematic is silly and requires a great deal of extraneous explanation/headcanon to make it work.

    In the end they didnt put enough effort in the cinematic to make it believeable.

    Additionally

    I did laugh at Greymane, he reminds me of some bad acting from the orginal resident evil 1 live action cinematic. When the helicopter pilot abandoned his teamates and one of them says "don't go!" Barely raises his arm in protest.

    https://youtu.be/PlW-mJusq0g
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-10-15 at 04:23 PM.

  20. #1680
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I can give you a definite answer, blizz did not clarify the whole thing as they should have done from the get go, why is this titan blood so weak nobody knows and nobody can know for certain, because the story never explained crucial details of the power-source pretty much the entire expansion revolved around, because blizz sucks incredibly with details.
    Well, I'd argue we kind of moved on from the whole Azerite thing - it was the spark the started the war, but it's definitely not what it came to be about nor was it a salient factor for most of the fighting, it was a distant B-plot in BfA if anything. I always assumed that the Well of Eternity was a concentrated wound bleeding off what was the equivalent of Titanic stem cells - potent and primordial forces that were coalesced in a single point of overwhelming power. Azerite, by contrast, was more diffuse as evidenced by it popping up practically everywhere all at once. If the Well of Eternity was like the Titan's heart-blood, then Azerite was more akin to its flop sweat as Gorribal was killing it. Different stuff, different effects and power level. Make of that what you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Doesn't matter in the slightest, it is the potential danger that is important. Jaina was not part of the plan and Anduin literally said jep it is game over, meaning his entire assault is a tactical joke and he had no way to deal with the blight, meaning the assault in that form should have never ever happened. If you cannot overcome the weapon of an enemy you do not throw people at it in the hopes it goes away, unless you have so many people your enemy will run out of munitions. You can either counter it or use a similar weapon, which might force both sides in a stalemate of mutual destruction.
    The Alliance has airships, if a ground assault failed because of the Blight Anduin could've just as easily called in the air support to bombard Undercity from above. Jaina showed up at the 11th hour and made that unnecessary, though. Again, the Blight didn't really kill the Alliance in any great numbers, either. Just forced a retreat from the field and ended their ground assault for a time. Could you call it a tactical blunder? Sure, I suppose; Anduin should've known that Sylvanas wouldn't care a whit for her own forces - but he's also naïve and idealistic, so that was realistic enough for him as a character. Anduin always underestimates what lengths tyrants and the truly evil are willing to go for power or victory, it's kind of what makes him Anduin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Predicting the means doesn't make the means better. The 'why not just kill them' point has never been satisfactorily answered and can't be in a Watsonian sense - only from a plot perspective in the sense of us having to rescue them consequence free, having them seemingly raise the stakes earlier to not go there. I already provided a constructive alternative in that same topic that would preserve the core of the plot beat they're going for, so you can't even complain about the other posters, though I'm not surprised you've pivoted to a personal attack given how piss weak your position is, since as you can plainly see in this thread just about everyone else, regardless of factional bias have brought up virtually the same points as to why this is nonsense.
    I don't think it ever could be satisfactorily answered for you, but that's neither here nor there really. I mean your construction is fine, don't get me wrong, it's just not necessary and you still haven't satisfactorily explained to me *why* the current one is bad outside of repeatedly saying things like "I don't like it" or "it's piss-weak" without any form of elaboration. And that's pretty much the same refrain that been repeated over and over in this thread - "it's lame," or "it's weak," or variations of "I hate it" without any real substance, like repeating the refrain will somehow make it truer than it is. I've explained multiple times now how it could happen, and why it happened, and also rationalized all the points where it is supposedly "impossible." So it all hinges on the question of why they were taken alive, and I don't have an answer to that yet, because it remains to be told (if it's going to be told). You're damning an entire story on its preamble here - and I'm telling you to get past at least the first chapter before pronouncing it dead. I guess we'll see how it ultimately pans out. Although I suspect you've already come to a conclusion here, and aren't really going to give it a chance either way - you'll be elated if it fails, and sulk if it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The President doesn't go anywhere without the secret service and he doesn't live in a world where people can quite literally go invisible and stab him and where the top prison has been broken out of and infiltrated every other year and the capital has been torched by a firebreathing dragon. The King of Stormwind being unguarded is not at all serious and ditto there being no one on alert in that very moment. It also isn't like this wouldn't be equally as easy to solve - just have a shot of the gryphons flying in only to be blasted by the Mawsworn or phased through or what have you, then we also get a cool visual and allay this issue. It isn't that hard. There's no reason to defend something mediocre when the means to not have it be so require barely any effort.
    Neither the Horde nor the Alliance have ever had a secret service analogue, so why would they suddenly have one now - that's a terrible comparison and relies on something that hasn't existed beforehand. Genn was also with Anduin, even though Anduin was obviously on a personal visit to his father's memorial. Not to mention that in Shadows Rising Anduin already has a predilection for sneaking off without guards of any kind. I'd agree having the Mawsworn dispose of a few gryphons would've also been cool, but again, it's not strictly necessary - it's a sketched sequence in any case. If this were some kind of major cinematic I might grumble as well, but it's really not and I think you're putting *way* more weight on it than is strictly necessary. Not the hill I'm going to die on, though - it wasn't a great cutscene, either.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-15 at 06:45 PM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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