SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Aucald]

No airship was present during the entire siege, could you call it a tactical blunder, are you serious? From any tactical standpoint the whole battle was downright retarded from start to finish on both sides, if his outlook makes it impossible for him to understand what his adversaries might do and he does not plan accordingly, he is unfit to command.

In war always expect your enemy to go after your civilians and use any means necessary to win, in essence be prepared for as many possibilities as you can, that is how wars are waged. Anyone who disregards such basic rules of warfare is an idiot.

Well, realistically speaking he probably is unfit to command, at least by our standards - he's a kid with zero experience commanding an army guided by other figures with little to no experience (most of whom are rulers due to family lineage and not merit of any kind), except perhaps Tyrande who wasn't present. But then you're also arguing from realism in the context of a fantasy video game, so you're probably going to have to relax a few standards from the get-go.

Real world military experience is also replete with goofs, blunders, and ill-advised tactical decisions from the Charge of the Light Brigade to the Battle of Bannockburn to the Siege of Gibraltar. Some of them make for great dramatizations and set-pieces, as well. I'm also not really going to say Anduin isn't an idiot, because he is in quite a few ways, which is again to be expected of a young and naïve king who was promoted purely due to bloodline and not his military acumen or experience. The society of WoW is still a decidedly medieval one, despite their schizo-technology, and the people of the Alliance and Horde largely aren't conditioned to question their leaders even when they should.

- - - Updated - - -

That it's followed up by the Scourge attacking is a point in favor of my argument, not against it. Loosing the Scourge right after from Icecrown pretty much ensures attention there. My point is that the abduction narrative serves no narrative purpose, cut it and you still have a hook - Bolvar going to the leaders, saying hey, guys, Sylvanas kicked my ass, there's a giant hole in the sky and the Scourge are attacking, you can still get those characters in the Maw and you save yourself a procession of plot problems. It's not like that lacks for excitement, hell, given the reaction, it's a lot more exciting than us losing guys who've already got too much attention.

Not if you combine the sudden mobilization of the Scourge with the equally sudden loss of leadership for both the Alliance and the Horde, taking some of their most powerful players off the board and leaving both factions scrambling - and that so soon after the disastrous Fourth War. I mean sure, you still have a hook - no one's is really saying the abduction is *required*, but as you've said yourself several times now it raises both the stakes and the drama, not to mention also serving as a hook in and of itself (the Scourge attacks giving us no reason to journey to the Maw). Sylvanas alone wouldn't be reason for us to go to hostile territory, they'd probably opt to draw her out and attack her on Azeroth, if they were otherwise unaware of the plot going on in the Shadowlands.

As said, the only object of mystery here who is likely to have a real plot later is Anduin. Everyone else gets cut loose within the questlines. It could be done like Bolvar alludes to destabilize the factions but again, this would not nullify the endless advantages to just killing them instead, which we agree on. I am willing to be optimistic when it comes to Anduin because there's a reason other than pandering for him to be there since he actually stays in the Maw long term and he's also the only one who's being there serves some kind of purpose - when Bolvar looks for him, he draws the Maw closer, ergo, the Jailor extracts some benefit from keeping him alive since if he were dead he'd not be rescuable. The others not so much.

Anduin and Tyrande, actually. But again, the presumption is that there's a story at play here - with presumably future dividends, at least one hopes. Not to mention the story of actually rescuing the four of the leaders themselves, serving as the intro to Torghast and its environs. It'd be a means-to-end fallacy to entirely discount the narrative surrounding those events just to say "well it doesn't matter because you rescue them anyways" when that's the story being told. That's the kind of argument you could telescope out and simply say "well none of it actually matters because you'll be victorious in the end anyways," which kind of misses the point of both games and stories. It's not about the end, it's about the journey to it, to put it succinctly.

[QUOTE=Super Dickmann;52729060]Go to any given forum or copy of the video and you'll see what I mean. As bagina points out it was largely found funny and you yourself acknowledged it wasn't very good. The overarching opinion is that it failed. Now, the majority can be wrong, but it can also be right especially in an instance where broad swathes of people from very different positions and interests in the lore agree on what the issues are. Everything said when it comes to the presence of the guards doesn't require a contingent of troops, that's a strawman, it requires an acknowledgment of these being defended places and of the abilities of both parties. I already told you how I'd do it, incidentally solving the issue of thinking those being assumed to be mooks - Anduin looks up, gryphon riders go up to engage, get fried in a few frames, then he gets chained and nabbed or maybe he tries to cast but we see the glow in his hand fade from the chain, implying its silenced. None of these are hard things to do - it's not difficult to get the scene's point across, it just doesn't do so.

I said it wasn't great, nor was it terrible. Most of the arguments I've seen against it are the same kinds of bad faith arguments you see constantly, and that's mostly what I'm arguing against. Looking at the Wowhead thread on the cinematic I see mostly mixed responses, some negative and some positive, but no real invective to speak of. For example:

"Love <3"
"Wow great reaction time there Graymane lol"
"I love the quality of their in game cinematics..."
"Honestly even with his defeat, Bolvar is amazing to me."
"I really like this one."
"The Bolvar part was interesting but... Really? YOINK?"
"If they wanted us to get hype for when we finally slit that woman's throat and put her carcass on farm, it's working."
"Epic"
"is it weird that I was laughing for 3 minutes straight after watching this?"

So no, I'm not really seeing this universal condemnation you're referring to? I see some unalloyed praise, some criticism, some jokes, and some people like myself who are more middle of the road. We've already covered the rest to the point of practical exhaustion.

Jaina quite literally is only taxed in any way at all because the door is locked. Otherwise she's running the assorted Maw minions over. Baine and Thrall who are generic, but skilled warriors by this stage are also cast as being very successful against their captors. Hell, Jaina sounds more mildly annoyed than anything else as she ices another set of goons. Their story in the Maw is concluded and was concluded at the time of writing as well. They could hypothetically be haunted by it later, but let's face it, if getting beat up by the PCs didn't stall her step some fodder definitely won't. The one open plotline is Anduin's and it's also the only one that has consequences because by imprisoning him wherever he did, the Jailor taunted Bolvar into further opening up the Maw.

She sounds pretty tired to me, and her reaction to seeing what she thinks is an illusion of the Champion borders on the hysterical, so suffice it to say that we read her dialogue pretty differently. She gives the impression she's been through this many, many times; always failing to escape, and despite being to run the gauntlet successfully it ultimately doesn't matter because she just has to do it over and over, meaning that her victories always amounted to nothing in the end. Baine, for instance, doesn't even really seem to recover from his wounds as you bring back the others over time - he remains kind of exhausted and weak the entire time. All of them refer to their experiences and decide they can't even talk about it for now, which really seemed to relate how traumatic it was, above and beyond the simple inability to escape the predicament (which is itself kind of harrowing if you think about it). For people who envision hell as a kind of profane repetition of your worst moments it would be terrible.

The last part is pretty much the only explanation that'd make the Jaina situation somewhat bearable. Have the Sisyphus situation be her against phantasms, always on the verge of getting out, but not qutie managing. It is however, as with most explanations discussed in this thread not actually in evidence from the story itself, it's all post-factum explanation. From what we can see she's not psychologically encumbered in any way from all this, she's more annoyed that she isn't being let out, not that anything there is a threat to her. As for Baine, his stint in Orgrimmar took him out for a patch, he's already chilling on the stairs in Oribos with Thrall by the time we let him out. We also aren't given any insight into these characters through the process, though I reserve my judgment on Thrall.

Suffice it to say that your read of the dialogue and events is quite different than mine, as to me it seems like all the faction leaders we rescue have gone through a harrowing ordeal that still haunts them, so much so that they refuse to even talk about it in the short term. It also seems to have brought them even more together, a shared experience and creating a forged by fire relationship across the faction boundaries (which I also think was kind of the intent). I think the leaders will come out of this with an even stronger sense that what unites them in adversity is more than what separates them culturally, which I think is a good thing for peace and stability on Azeroth in the longer term. It will also create a tension between those leaders who were involved in this and those that were not (Genn, Lor'themar, etc. etc.), which may have dramatic payout later on as well.

[DesoPL]

Do we actually know finally, why Sylvanas allied with Jailer, or still nothing from beta?

As for abduction Anduin and rest. As far i don't get it, why Mawsworn has taken Thrall and Baine, i understand why Anduin. First of all Anduin is high king of alliance, so Jailer can corrupt him so alliance may lose morale to fight. Second. Sylvanas is far better tactican than Garrosh, because he could only tear and rend everything in his way. Sylvanas is much clever, because she use mental tactics to weaken enemies.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

Sabaton Art Of War and Art Of War by Sun Tzu.

[Combatbutler]

Do we actually know finally, why Sylvanas allied with Jailer, or still nothing from beta?

You see Sylvanas for about 10 seconds in the entire beta so far. I'd say it will be very briefly explained in the future, if at all.

Sabaton Art Of War.

It is a nice song, but credit still belongs to Sun Tzu XD

[Aucald]

Do we actually know finally, why Sylvanas allied with Jailer, or still nothing from beta?

As for abduction Anduin and rest. As far i don't get it, why Mawsworn has taken Thrall and Baine, i understand why Anduin. First of all Anduin is high king of alliance, so Jailer can corrupt him so alliance may lose morale to fight. Second. Sylvanas is far better tactican than Garrosh, because he could only tear and rend everything in his way. Sylvanas is much clever, because she use mental tactics to weaken enemies.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

Sabaton Art Of War and Art Of War by Sun Tzu.

Sylvanas isn't really a presence in the opening chapter of Shadowlands, I mean she's referred to and the ongoing actions precipitated by her, but you only really see her briefly as she's torturing Anduin at Zovaal's Cauldron in the Maw, and she has no real dialogue. Her closing bit in Shadows Rising does convey some of her feelings on the matter, though. She considers existence to be "a prison" and she is committed to setting everyone, including herself, free of it - what this actually entails isn't quite known yet, but the most likely speculation is that she believes the clockwork system of life and death in Warcraft universe is one of bondage to forces unseen and she wishes to break that system and free everyone from its strictures, which may require that the entire metacosm be completely rebuilt from the ground up (something she seems to believe Zovaal is capable of and/or desires as well). Whether or not she is herself honest about this, or whether or not Zovaal is misleading her himself is also unknown as of yet.

[DesoPL]

Sylvanas isn't really a presence in the opening chapter of Shadowlands, I mean she's referred to and the ongoing actions precipitated by her, but you only really see her briefly as she's torturing Anduin at Zovaal's Cauldron in the Maw, and she has no real dialogue. Her closing bit in Shadows Rising does convey some of her feelings on the matter, though. She considers existence to be "a prison" and she is committed to setting everyone, including herself, free of it - what this actually entails isn't quite known yet, but the most likely speculation is that she believes the clockwork system of life and death in Warcraft universe is one of bondage to forces unseen and she wishes to break that system and free everyone from its strictures, which may require that the entire metacosm be completely rebuilt from the ground up (something she seems to believe Zovaal is capable of and/or desires as well). Whether or not she is herself honest about this, or whether or not Zovaal is misleading her himself is also unknown as of yet.

You suggesting, she might be mind controlled? If yes... Oh boy redemption arc is coming...

[Aucald]

You suggesting, she might be mind controlled? If yes... Oh boy redemption arc is coming...

Mind control is possible. She could also be misled, purposefully or incidentally - the Jailer either using her existing insanity to his advantage or having manipulated her to where she now is. Personally speaking, I think she's gone way too far to be redeemed, but there's still a non-zero chance of it happening regardless.

[tommyhil622]

Mind control is possible. She could also be misled, purposefully or incidentally - the Jailer either using her existing insanity to his advantage or having manipulated her to where she now is. Personally speaking, I think she's gone way too far to be redeemed, but there's still a non-zero chance of it happening regardless.

I just don't really see any evidence of her being mind controlled. Usually people that are mind-control don't act like themselves. Nothing that she's done has shown any signs that are outside of what she's been shown capable of doing (barring extra power aside). I do think it's possible that she's operating under some false premise. Lies and manipulation via the Jailer.

[Syegfryed]

Second. Sylvanas is far better tactican than Garrosh, because he could only tear and rend everything in his way. Sylvanas is much clever, because she use mental tactics to weaken enemies.

the absolute failure of her war campaign in bfa, with way more support and tools than Garrosh clearly show she is not better tactician than him.

Her mental tactics mostly consist on blighting everything and waiting to win or running away, lets not get too much hyped.

[Aucald]

I just don't really see any evidence of her being mind controlled. Usually people that are mind-control don't act like themselves. Nothing that she's done has shown any signs that are outside of what she's been shown capable of doing (barring extra power aside). I do think it's possible that she's operating under some false premise. Lies and manipulation via the Jailer.

Neither do I, really; but it's a possibility I don't think we can really rule out either. Mind control can be both subtle or gross in fiction, either low-key and long-term brainwashing (slowly and surely nudging them toward some desired way of thinking or feeling), or just outright control or possession of their minds. If the Jailer was controlling her mind it'd probably be in the manner of the former and not the latter, though some would argue she hasn't been acting like herself for some time. I do think it's likely more going to be the Jailer just manipulating her, though - either inadvertently or directly as the case may be.

[Maljinwo]

Her mental tactics mostly consist on running away

Sorry Syeg.
Had to correct the quote

[tommyhil622]

Neither do I, really; but it's a possibility I don't think we can really rule out either. Mind control can be both subtle or gross in fiction, either low-key and long-term brainwashing (slowly and surely nudging them toward some desired way of thinking or feeling), or just outright control or possession of their minds. If the Jailer was controlling her mind it'd probably be in the manner of the former and not the latter, though some would argue she hasn't been acting like herself for some time. I do think it's likely more going to be the Jailer just manipulating her, though - either inadvertently or directly as the case may be.

I guess anything is possible she's been pretty absent in the beta despite her initial showing. But yea i guess it's possible perhaps not the direct drone like mind control but more of the suggestive mind manipulation via external ideas/thoughts being pushed on her by the Jailer and/or associates (e.g. Valkyr or mawsworn etc).

Imo it's possible that she's just the typically manipulated person by a higher power.

All of this depends on how connected she actually is to the Jailer, and whether the jailer cares for his "servants". It's a can of worms cause everything is still pretty shrouded in terms of her actual motivation in relation what she's carrying out for the Jailer. I still think she has her own agency and judging how the events with Azshara played out and Nzoth, she's able to play a role and advance her own ends. I would also think after her ordeal with the lich king / Arthas she would have so immunity from direct mind control (but that's speculation on my part).

But anyway, if some of her actions were not completely of her own making then there's a path to redemption. Hell I think if she does get redeemed, it's possible she will get a living body again as a reward to helping stop the jailer if it comes to that. Or she just becomes a Guldan type of raid boss and gets killed/escapes etc.

[Hubbl3]

Sorry Syeg.
Had to correct the quote

Before running away she is also angry about other people being mean to her.

[Aucald]

I guess anything is possible she's been pretty absent in the beta despite her initial showing. But yea i guess it's possible perhaps not the direct drone like mind control but more of the suggestive mind manipulation via external ideas/thoughts being pushed on her by the Jailer and/or associates (e.g. Valkyr or mawsworn etc).

Imo it's possible that she's just the typically manipulated person by a higher power.

All of this depends on how connected she actually is to the Jailer, and whether the jailer cares for his "servants". It's a can of worms cause everything is still pretty shrouded in terms of her actual motivation in relation what she's carrying out for the Jailer. I still think she has her own agency and judging how the events with Azshara played out and Nzoth, she's able to play a role and advance her own ends. I would also think after her ordeal with the lich king / Arthas she would have so immunity from direct mind control (but that's speculation on my part).

But anyway, if some of her actions were not completely of her own making then there's a path to redemption. Hell I think if she does get redeemed, it's possible she will get a living body again as a reward to helping stop the jailer if it comes to that. Or she just becomes a Guldan type of raid boss and gets killed/escapes etc.

I think the most likely scenario here is that Sylvanas gets betrayed by the Jailer, probably at the moment his plans begin to come to what appears to be their ultimate conclusion. The Jailer will have no need for his agents in Azeroth or beyond the Maw, so to speak, and like any evil overlord he will probably liquidate his original keys to power like Sylvanas to ensure he's not betrayed or indebted. Theirs was always an alliance of convenience, more or less; and I have little doubt that Sylvanas too is looking for a leg up and would betray the Jailer the moment such a possibility were to materialize in a way that would serve her goals directly.

What materializes out of that betrayal is hard to say - she may die trying to redeem herself, she may decide all is for naught and just attack blindly and recklessly, basically looking for suicide by Champion, or she could even pull off a true redemption of sorts and put herself at the mercy of her former enemies in the Alliance and Horde. We'll have to see, I suppose.

[bagina]

I really don't see Jailer managing to betray Sylvanas. That is, I don't imagine a scenario where she wouldn't be at least anticipating it. It'd be silly if she put her full trust in literal Satan. She must've considered such possibility. "SHE'S CUHRAZY!" is not an argument. Nah, she knows better than that. So if the Jailer decides to discard Sylvanas, I'm willing to bet that she'll see it coming and will be prepared (heh). OR, a whole another sitch where she will be the one to betray the Jailer while delivering some corny speech like "Did you really think I'd spend the rest of eternity obeying another tyrant? I serve no one!" Yeah, I'm thinking one of these two scenarios is very likely to happen.

[Darth-Piekus]

I really don't see Jailer managing to betray Sylvanas. That is, I don't imagine a scenario where she wouldn't be at least anticipating it. It'd be silly if she put her full trust in literal Satan. She must've considered such possibility. "SHE'S CUHRAZY!" is not an argument. Nah, she knows better than that. So if the Jailer decides to discard Sylvanas, I'm willing to bet that she'll see it coming and will be prepared (heh). OR, a whole another sitch where she will be the one to betray the Jailer while delivering some corny speech like "Did you really think I'd spend the rest of eternity obeying another tyrant? I serve no one!" Yeah, I'm thinking one of these two scenarios is very likely to happen.

Even if that's the case the Jailer will take her power away and she is powerless without the Jailer. Unless Danuser somehow makes Sylvannas able to steal that power by some means.

[Super Dickmann]

Not if you combine the sudden mobilization of the Scourge with the equally sudden loss of leadership for both the Alliance and the Horde, taking some of their most powerful players off the board and leaving both factions scrambling - and that so soon after the disastrous Fourth War. I mean sure, you still have a hook - no one's is really saying the abduction is *required*, but as you've said yourself several times now it raises both the stakes and the drama, not to mention also serving as a hook in and of itself (the Scourge attacks giving us no reason to journey to the Maw). Sylvanas alone wouldn't be reason for us to go to hostile territory, they'd probably opt to draw her out and attack her on Azeroth, if they were otherwise unaware of the plot going on in the Shadowlands.

If Sylvanas busting a hole in reality isn't enough to get their attention, nor the Scourge invasion it's unlikely to do so. It is unnecessary in the sense that you can get those same characters in the Maw by having them be part of the vanguard without performing an abduction plot and this achieves the same Doylist purpose. Is it reasonable to behead your opponent's leadership before doing such a thing? Yes, no doubt about that, but that leads us back into the point about how the same could be achieved on all fronts by just killing them, and you have acknowledged that to be the case. In turn, not killing them, having their abduction lack meaningful consequence - from what we can see thus far, rather than hypotheticals of what these consequences could be, diminishes the threat level of the villains by making them look stupid.

Anduin and Tyrande, actually. But again, the presumption is that there's a story at play here - with presumably future dividends, at least one hopes. Not to mention the story of actually rescuing the four of the leaders themselves, serving as the intro to Torghast and its environs. It'd be a means-to-end fallacy to entirely discount the narrative surrounding those events just to say "well it doesn't matter because you rescue them anyways" when that's the story being told. That's the kind of argument you could telescope out and simply say "well none of it actually matters because you'll be victorious in the end anyways," which kind of misses the point of both games and stories. It's not about the end, it's about the journey to it, to put it succinctly.

Tyrande doesn't count as she wasn't abducted. She was targeted, but given we didn't see it happen this is one more case where the Night Warrior has an informed ability. But even then, your argument doesn't fly because the alternative I suggested still had them go to the Maw, they would just be heading in voluntarily as the vanguard rather than being abducted and being overcome in the Maw and captured there, thus explaining also why they wouldn't be killed - they're already in the afterlife, so killing them wouldn't be a full kill while also making them proactive. In terms of whether I'd allege the story being pointless because they were rescued - not at all, their rescue could have meaningful value, but really doesn't, as they don't change as a result, if anything it has negative value because the idea of even Jaina being overcome and nabbed off-screen builds up threat level, whereas Jaina then being able to mow down Maw troops by the truckloads and mundane warriors being able to take them on diminishes the danger.

I said it wasn't great, nor was it terrible. Most of the arguments I've seen against it are the same kinds of bad faith arguments you see constantly, and that's mostly what I'm arguing against. Looking at the Wowhead thread on the cinematic I see mostly mixed responses, some negative and some positive, but no real invective to speak of. For example:

Wowhead is among the more positive ones, which is what you'd expect from a site that curates their comments on a fucking Calia article to maintain positivity, but beside the point. In general, response is indeed mixed at best and not taken altogether seriously. Nowhere did I imply a great and universal disdain only that the form of criticism is the same across all platforms and levels of knowledgeability because the flaws of the cinematic are readily apparent regardless of your personal preference of the storyline. I and Darth-Piekus agree on basically nothing, but our complaints as to the content of the cinematic are basically the same, ditto Mehrunes and Feanoro.

She sounds pretty tired to me, and her reaction to seeing what she thinks is an illusion of the Champion borders on the hysterical, so suffice it to say that we read her dialogue pretty differently. She gives the impression she's been through this many, many times; always failing to escape, and despite being to run the gauntlet successfully it ultimately doesn't matter because she just has to do it over and over, meaning that her victories always amounted to nothing in the end. Baine, for instance, doesn't even really seem to recover from his wounds as you bring back the others over time - he remains kind of exhausted and weak the entire time. All of them refer to their experiences and decide they can't even talk about it for now, which really seemed to relate how traumatic it was, above and beyond the simple inability to escape the predicament (which is itself kind of harrowing if you think about it). For people who envision hell as a kind of profane repetition of your worst moments it would be terrible.

Suffice it to say that your read of the dialogue and events is quite different than mine, as to me it seems like all the faction leaders we rescue have gone through a harrowing ordeal that still haunts them, so much so that they refuse to even talk about it in the short term. It also seems to have brought them even more together, a shared experience and creating a forged by fire relationship across the faction boundaries (which I also think was kind of the intent). I think the leaders will come out of this with an even stronger sense that what unites them in adversity is more than what separates them culturally, which I think is a good thing for peace and stability on Azeroth in the longer term. It will also create a tension between those leaders who were involved in this and those that were not (Genn, Lor'themar, etc. etc.), which may have dramatic payout later on as well.

I am inured to expecting nothing when it comes to Jaina and while I leave the door open to being pleasantly surprised her last trip to a torture realm ended up with her reverting to factory settings, much like her last major engagement with people who should be a threat to her had her down for account for about 2 minutes. Maybe this time she'll suffer an actual hindrance past that mark but let's say I really, really doubt it. Baine is implied to have a story regarding the afterlife from Dev interviews, but I struggle to believe that that story required him to be able to handle himself pretty well in the Maw. Thrall is likely to have a story with his mum, but again, did it require him spending the intro talking about nabbing an axe? Compare if you would, the Legion story which gets across its message of defeat in a very similar scenario with the Broken Shore but does show us the effects right after - Varian, Vol'jin and Tirion are dead, Thrall is a manic depressive and the circumstances heavily affect the plot going forward and the decisions of the characters. Hell, unlike nu-Gul'dan, namely Sylvanas, old Gul'dan even snaps up a kill before he drops off the face of the plot before his/her inevitable raid death. You can do this kind of intro well and they have done it before. Tellingly, with the Broken Shore you didn't need to have the Legion abduct characters or do any cheap grab to get across to the audience that they needed to stop another kind of hole in the sky and another massive invading army, no more than you needed it for any of the Dark Portal invasions.

[Aucald]

If Sylvanas busting a hole in reality isn't enough to get their attention, nor the Scourge invasion it's unlikely to do so. It is unnecessary in the sense that you can get those same characters in the Maw by having them be part of the vanguard without performing an abduction plot and this achieves the same Doylist purpose. Is it reasonable to behead your opponent's leadership before doing such a thing? Yes, no doubt about that, but that leads us back into the point about how the same could be achieved on all fronts by just killing them, and you have acknowledged that to be the case. In turn, not killing them, having their abduction lack meaningful consequence - from what we can see thus far, rather than hypotheticals of what these consequences could be, diminishes the threat level of the villains by making them look stupid.

Sylvanas busting a hole in reality isn't something they can know about a continent away - you can't see what's happened to the sky over Icecrown from Orgrimmar or Stormwind, it's a more or less a local event. The Scourge invasion is a bit more significant in that it's wide-ranging. As for their abductions over their deaths, from the Doylist standpoint we both know why this is the case - arguing about it more or less quibbling over technicalities. From the Watsonian standpoint, I'd argue the Jailer has some purpose or need in having them alive, although I don't know what it is currently. I've given several lines of plausible speculation, but I don't know if any of them will ultimately pan out. It's just not a big thing for me personally, because of the more obvious reason that that's just not the story being told. Sure, you need to some light suspending of disbelief, but that's fiction for you. Beyond that the abductions serve the purposes already discussed.

Tyrande doesn't count as she wasn't abducted. She was targeted, but given we didn't see it happen this is one more case where the Night Warrior has an informed ability. But even then, your argument doesn't fly because the alternative I suggested still had them go to the Maw, they would just be heading in voluntarily as the vanguard rather than being abducted and being overcome in the Maw and captured there, thus explaining also why they wouldn't be killed - they're already in the afterlife, so killing them wouldn't be a full kill while also making them proactive. In terms of whether I'd allege the story being pointless because they were rescued - not at all, their rescue could have meaningful value, but really doesn't, as they don't change as a result, if anything it has negative value because the idea of even Jaina being overcome and nabbed off-screen builds up threat level, whereas Jaina then being able to mow down Maw troops by the truckloads and mundane warriors being able to take them on diminishes the danger.

Tyrande does enter the Maw alongside the Champion and the Ebon Blade, though; and she is also later found in Torghast as an apparent prisoner of the Jailer. She wasn't abducted, but rather later jumps headlong into the portal created from the Helm of Domination that brings everyone else into the Maw. This also has nothing to do with your alternative, but rather the specifically the story of their capture, their durance in Torghast (alongside whatever they learn of the Jailer and his minions there), followed by their subsequent rescue at your hands. As for their "lack of change" you purport, this isn't borne out by the later narrative, so you're either wrong or just purposefully discounting their experiences. Jaina also doesn't "mow down Maw troops by the truckload," either - she puts a good show, but ultimately she's captured and returned to Torghast over and over again. Quite obviously the Jailer is having no issue keeping her contained, and has the reserves to waste just to torture her with the allure of freedom (which she intimates is exactly what he's doing with her). Given the givens, I don't know if killing the Jailer's troops in the Maw actually has any permanent effect on them - several of them return again and again within the story itself, so they may be beyond death in their home realm.

Wowhead is among the more positive ones, which is what you'd expect from a site that curates their comments on a fucking Calia article to maintain positivity, but beside the point. In general, response is indeed mixed at best and not taken altogether seriously. Nowhere did I imply a great and universal disdain only that the form of criticism is the same across all platforms and levels of knowledgeability because the flaws of the cinematic are readily apparent regardless of your personal preference of the storyline. I and Darth-Piekus agree on basically nothing, but our complaints as to the content of the cinematic are basically the same, ditto Mehrunes and Feanoro.

Pushing those goalposts back again, eh? I did the same sweep of the WoW Reddit and the YouTube comments on the official video and saw similar results - there's no preponderance of negativity to be had. Some people really like it, some people are indifferent, and some people didn't like it at all. Official YouTube likes vs. dislikes on the video stand at 17K like vs. 1.5K dislikes, which is much better than the ratios on the disastrous N'Zoth defeat cutscene (which was disliked so much that Blizzard still has it unlisted). That fact that a few people agree with you isn't material, and partisanship aside you share the same general disdain for WoW with Mehrunes and Feanoro. I'd call myself mostly indifferent - it's an okay cut-scene, neither fantastic nor abysmal.

I am inured to expecting nothing when it comes to Jaina and while I leave the door open to being pleasantly surprised her last trip to a torture realm ended up with her reverting to factory settings, much like her last major engagement with people who should be a threat to her had her down for account for about 2 minutes. Maybe this time she'll suffer an actual hindrance past that mark but let's say I really, really doubt it. Baine is implied to have a story regarding the afterlife from Dev interviews, but I struggle to believe that that story required him to be able to handle himself pretty well in the Maw. Thrall is likely to have a story with his mum, but again, did it require him spending the intro talking about nabbing an axe? Compare if you would, the Legion story which gets across its message of defeat in a very similar scenario with the Broken Shore but does show us the effects right after - Varian, Vol'jin and Tirion are dead, Thrall is a manic depressive and the circumstances heavily affect the plot going forward and the decisions of the characters. Hell, unlike nu-Gul'dan, namely Sylvanas, old Gul'dan even snaps up a kill before he drops off the face of the plot before his/her inevitable raid death. You can do this kind of intro well and they have done it before. Tellingly, with the Broken Shore you didn't need to have the Legion abduct characters or do any cheap grab to get across to the audience that they needed to stop another kind of hole in the sky and another massive invading army, no more than you needed it for any of the Dark Portal invasions.

I've actually liked Jaina's growth in BfA, probably one of its few good points - and rather than finding her "revering to factory settings" I think she's settled into a nice synthesis between her former peacenik self prior to MoP and her vengeful/hateful persona following the destruction of Theramore. She's internalized her father's legacy and his own role in what happened to destroy the peace she'd worked hard to established, while at the same time she's still wary of trusting those she associates with the destruction of her city and the deaths of her friends and loved ones. Now she can build true and lasting relationships with the benefit of full knowledge, those bonds have been tested and reforged to be stronger and more meaningful. But those more recent wounds are still there, and you can still see the legacy of them when she's moved to anger (e.g. her reaction to Baine presenting the undead form of Derek to her). All in all the mix makes her a more realistic character to me, one that has been organically grown out of her experiences. I also think you read the Shadowlands intro incorrectly as well in comparing it to the themes of defeat and despondency that Legion began with. The theme of Shadowlands is perseverance, there is a strong sense of optimism despite the dire nature of what's going on, and as opposed to the "all men for themselves" ending of the first Battle of the Broken Shore there's a sense of cohesion and camaraderie to the Shadowlands intro scenario. The leaders lost in the Maw band together, fight together, the old animosities lost or laid aside due to the grimness of the situation. Not really the same story beats at all.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas busting a hole in reality isn't something they can know about a continent away - you can't see what's happened to the sky over Icecrown from Orgrimmar or Stormwind, it's a more or less a local event. The Scourge invasion is a bit more significant in that it's wide-ranging. As for their abductions over their deaths, from the Doylist standpoint we both know why this is the case - arguing about it more or less quibbling over technicalities. From the Watsonian standpoint, I'd argue the Jailer has some purpose or need in having them alive, although I don't know what it is currently. I've given several lines of plausible speculation, but I don't know if any of them will ultimately pan out. It's just not a big thing for me personally, because of the more obvious reason that that's just not the story being told. Sure, you need to some light suspending of disbelief, but that's fiction for you. Beyond that the abductions serve the purposes already discussed.

As said, we can safely dismiss any future reference to a benefit to keeping them alive as their story vis a vis their captivity has already concluded - we bust them out, that's it. A worldwide Scourge invasion is not a local event and as I brought in my last paragraph in the previous post, this was never an issue before, as this same general concept of heroes barging into the gates of hell to stop a problem is how Draenor, Outland and Legion went, sometimes successfully, in the last case less so. This isn't a revolutionary idea that Blizzard fucked up for lack of practice, they deliberately broke from an entirely functional approach and opened up plot issues in doing so. This isn't a major example of it, as already discussed, this whole gig can be dismissed, but it's one of the endless examples of how they write, namely that if they want to do a beat, they have no issue doing it in isolation of any preceding setup even if on inspection it collapses. This entire expansion is contingent on having to heavily engineer endless amounts of prior content when it comes to spirits or the afterlife to function after all. It's not that it requires suspension of disbelief, it's about having a premise regarding the Jailor and Sylvanas's modus operandi, having a plot beat you've done before - getting the characters into this new world and doing a poor rendition of it.

Tyrande does enter the Maw alongside the Champion and the Ebon Blade, though; and she is also later found in Torghast as an apparent prisoner of the Jailer. She wasn't abducted, but rather later jumps headlong into the portal created from the Helm of Domination that brings everyone else into the Maw. This also has nothing to do with your alternative, but rather the specifically the story of their capture, their durance in Torghast (alongside whatever they learn of the Jailer and his minions there), followed by their subsequent rescue at your hands. As for their "lack of change" you purport, this isn't borne out by the later narrative, so you're either wrong or just purposefully discounting their experiences. Jaina also doesn't "mow down Maw troops by the truckload," either - she puts a good show, but ultimately she's captured and returned to Torghast over and over again. Quite obviously the Jailer is having no issue keeping her contained, and has the reserves to waste just to torture her with the allure of freedom (which she intimates is exactly what he's doing with her). Given the givens, I don't know if killing the Jailer's troops in the Maw actually has any permanent effect on them - several of them return again and again within the story itself, so they may be beyond death in their home realm.

Yes, Tyrande does go into the Maw, and had she not done so pending an attempted abduction (that we don't even see on-screen), but alongside the other characters absolutely nothing would have changed but you wouldn't have to answer stupid questions when it comes to the villains' methods. Making your villain and threat unconvincing is especially a poor call when that villain is an entirely new addition to the setting without prior hype behind him or an empty skinsuit who's already got a ton of people having issues with her without half-assing her sole appearance and contribution to the plot in all of the launch content. Jaina being able to repeatedly defeat scores of troops, be captured and then do it all again does not give the impression of them being able to effectively contain her. The lack of change on her or the others' part is readily apparent. How is Baine meaningfully different before or after? How is Jaina, short of needing a Mars Bar, changed from her experience? Not at all. You are right in the sense that what exactly happens when you kill the Jailor's troops being vague, though other lore on being killed in the afterlife suggests they pop out of existence. At least that's how it is in Bastion and Maldraxxus, who knows about the rest.

Pushing those goalposts back again, eh? I did the same sweep of the WoW Reddit and the YouTube comments on the official video and saw similar results - there's no preponderance of negativity to be had. Some people really like it, some people are indifferent, and some people didn't like it at all. Official YouTube likes vs. dislikes on the video stand at 17K like vs. 1.5K dislikes, which is much better than the ratios on the disastrous N'Zoth defeat cutscene (which was disliked so much that Blizzard still has it unlisted). That fact that a few people agree with you isn't material, and partisanship aside you share the same general disdain for WoW with Mehrunes and Feanoro. I'd call myself mostly indifferent - it's an okay cut-scene, neither fantastic nor abysmal.

What goal posts are there to move, you picked the video and picked out comments from it. Behold, as I do the same:

Sylvanas literally kidnapped Aduin as easy as bowser kidnaps peach every Mario game.

Man those griffon riders that have been circling stormwind for like 13 years straight now took today of all days to take a break.

- we only have budget for 2 mins of animation
- just yoink him

"So, we gonna take the King of the Alliance straigt out of his yard" "Shouldn't that be hard. Isn't he super well guarded and isn't Stormwind full of Heroes who would protect him?" "Oh, no. Barely an inconvience. Super easy. ...Yeah, they won't even follow us until like too months later"

Anduin getting yoinked out of SW is the stupidest thing I've ever seen

And about a million jokes regarding Genn's call of Sylvanas and how cheesy it is. We can pick and choose sources until the cows go home, but what you'll notice with even a glance at any of the content is that the criticism made here and there are identical. They might not be wasting paragraphs upon paragraphs of text explaining why exactly it's shit, but the core points - the cheesiness, the unconvincing narration, the ease of capture and the unearned nature of the villains' victory are the same, simply far more concise.

I've actually liked Jaina's growth in BfA, probably one of its few good points - and rather than finding her "revering to factory settings" I think she's settled into a nice synthesis between her former peacenik self prior to MoP and her vengeful/hateful persona following the destruction of Theramore. She's internalized her father's legacy and his own role in what happened to destroy the peace she'd worked hard to established, while at the same time she's still wary of trusting those she associates with the destruction of her city and the deaths of her friends and loved ones. Now she can build true and lasting relationships with the benefit of full knowledge, those bonds have been tested and reforged to be stronger and more meaningful. But those more recent wounds are still there, and you can still see the legacy of them when she's moved to anger (e.g. her reaction to Baine presenting the undead form of Derek to her). All in all the mix makes her a more realistic character to me, one that has been organically grown out of her experiences. I also think you read the Shadowlands intro incorrectly as well in comparing it to the themes of defeat and despondency that Legion began with. The theme of Shadowlands is perseverance, there is a strong sense of optimism despite the dire nature of what's going on, and as opposed to the "all men for themselves" ending of the first Battle of the Broken Shore there's a sense of cohesion and camaraderie to the Shadowlands intro scenario. The leaders lost in the Maw band together, fight together, the old animosities lost or laid aside due to the grimness of the situation. Not really the same story beats at all.

I am one of the people who was deeply exasperated with Jaina's non-character arc after an amazing short that promised something much different. Especially how it left her with basically nowhere to go and the absurd power ramp up involved, but that's not the majority opinion and off-topic besides. I'd say her counterpart Talanji got a much better shake as far as BFA and associated materials went, and A Good War is probably the best thing to come out of the expansion in general. The last part is probably the most coherent argument made thus far as to why the Maw in general is underwhelming and why they made the choice to make everyone in there take on a million guys and come out untouched. It's a decision I'd deeply disagree with on a stylistic level and I'd say Legion handled the introduction of its baddie much better (only to blow it later), but who knows, Shadowlands might pan out better in the long run, since 7.0 is the high point of the Legion whereas the Jailor hasn't actually broken out by the end of the launch content.

[Vakir]

Sorry Syeg.
Had to correct the quote

I'm reminded of Lelouch being touted as a tactical genius when about 75% of his plans are "blow up the floor while they're standing on it, using bombs that were put in place off-screen, somehow." Characters can never be smarter than their writers, and these writers aren't that smart. A lot of logical flexing needs to happen for Sylvanas' bullshit to work which is at least part of why people who don't give a fuck about factions can still have problems with her.

I think the amount of energy being expended attacking and defending the cinematic are unnecessary, but damn if it isn't wonderful depicting the two Mawsworn Kyrians as two old timey bank robbers laughing like Muttley.

At the end of the day, community reaction is going to dictate a lot of the overall perception of execution since it's driven by subjective factors regardless. If there's a fairly sizeable portion of people reacting with amusement, pointing the finger at the usual suspects and accusing them of complaining about everything won't really disregard that it's awkwardly handled.

[Feanoro]

you share the same general disdain for WoW with Mehrunes and Feanoro.

How kind of the all knowing Gatekeeper of the Lore to inform me of my opinion of WoW. Do tell, what other thoughts do I have? I can't wait to find out!

Man, playing retail from beta through Azshara and swapping to Classic and going strong, and all this time I didn't like it. I never knew! I mean, I was a hardcore raider from MC through HFC, raid leading from MC though ICC, top 50 high end, top 200 low, following the story the whole time, and I had no idea I hated it all those years! Thank God I have some pompous ass on a forum to let me know!