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Thread: Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

1. Because WoW is a high fantasy game, and technology doesn't really fit? Plus, look at the Engineer class in GW2. It's kind of weird that it only uses guns by default

2. Originally Posted by Varodoc
Not really. That would imply that all users on MMO-Champion voted on that poll, which is not the case. The majority probably did not even see that thread, thus that data is not valid.
M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.

3. Originally Posted by Dalinos
M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.
Well I have doubts about MMO-Champion population being fair and unbiased, there is always the chance that some alts voted on that poll. It happened in the past as well in the lore subforum.

4. Originally Posted by Teriz
How is that any different than when a Druid dies in animal form?

Except that's not what you just said. You said that we already beat his mech form, so he dies. Again, how is that different than what happens with a Druid in animal form?

Says the poster who makes up ridiculous nonsense because they're too afraid to admit that they simply hate the concept. That's all you have to say; "I hate Tinkers", and go about your business. Embarrassing yourself with silliness like what you posted above does no one any favors.
Because the druid become the animal , he isn't wearing an animal suit . Even without shifting into an animal form , the druid basic body can still do lots of things with his magic.

The tinker hide in a mech suit to protect his laughably weak main body. Just look at the dazar alor cinematic , mekatorque almost died from a balista bolt falling next to him, when jaina, a mage, tanked a direct hit without any damage.

Without their mech suit , tinker are NOTHING .

5. Originally Posted by Teriz
Demon Hunters were profoundly redundant because their design space was occupied by Warlocks and Rogues. Add to this the fact that Demon Hunters took an ability from an existing class in order to be viable.
And also some of Monks' space.

The Tinker won't have that problem. They won't take abilities from existing classes like Demon Hunters did, and they're not another agility-based melee class. They'll be ranged and use a theme that's largely absent within the current class lineup.
Rogues' smoke bombs. Hunters' traps. Hunters' mechanical pets. Engineering toys and bombs. Hunters' guns. Gonbins' racial leap. There's plenty of stuff that they'll overlap with.

And then there's the matter of niche. There are already a lot of pet specs - 2-3 Lock and 2-3 Hunter depending on whether the pet-less builds are available and viable plus 1 Mage and 1 DK gives 6-8 perma-pet specs, 4-6 of them being ranged. Then there's Elemental and Enhance Shamans and Shadow Priests with short duration pets - and Shamans are getting turret totems back on top of that. Thus, they probably shouldn't be a pet-spec, but there are also lots of non-pet ranged.

Then there's how they do their DPS - single-target or AoE? There are plenty of specs for both. Burst or sustained - again, both are filled. DoTs vs direct damage - again, plenty of both. Turret vs mobile? Same problem. Blizzard already has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes now.

Maybe they could heal, but we've got a shield healer, and HoT healers, and direct healers. We've got ranged only healers, and melee healers. Maybe they heal and do damage via turrets and golems? Ah, but we have pets and we have totems and statues for these already, so the 'Tinker' would stomp on pet DPS and on Mistweavers and Resto Shamans and also over the part fifteen years totems have always had a mixed reception and that won't change just because they all like Goblin totems, or run into melee and blow up in a burst of healing goo.

There's not a lot of design space left to put a new class into, and players will be really pissed if its carved out of their favourite class the way introducing DHs chomped off a big chunk of Demo (and put paid to any chance of a Lock tank build).

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Originally Posted by bloodmoth13
Its the only class really that could fill every role in the game with ease.
Druids already do. Paladins could simply by adding a spec that does ranged Holy damage (and there isn't a ranged holy DPS, so that's an open niche for a Paladin or Priest spec). Shamans used to be able to tank non-raid content, so there's precedent for them having a fourth role. That's three classes that do, did, or easily could fill all roles, and they are in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by Lefrog
With the class/race combos in game, I just don't see them opening up the Tinker class to anyone else other than goblin and gnome. I don't think I've seen any other race use anything other than a bomb and gun as far as tech goes.
Dwarves make and use tanks, aeroplanes, and artillery, and of those only the planes might be borrowed from the Gnomes.

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Originally Posted by Dalinos
M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.
They might be a decent representation of the population that's "members of MMO-C that answer polls". I think it's a bit less likely that they represent "members of MMO-C", and I very much doubt they're representative of WoW players as a whole.

6. I dislike the idea because... it's not interesting.

To me it's by far the least imaginitive or game-changing class suggestion. (which is music to the ears of corporations who don't like taking risks and are on a downslide of milking their products). The skills and abilities all seem very predictable, and the theme of mechanical tools to engage in combat just isn't something that fascinates me.

Personally I would like something that is a bit more prominent and well grounded in the lore of warcraft.

And if that is not possible then more race based fleshing out of the classes (different race based abilities and themes).

7. Originally Posted by Varodoc
Not really. That would imply that all users on MMO-Champion voted on that poll, which is not the case. The majority probably did not even see that thread, thus that data is not valid.
That isn't how statistics works.

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Originally Posted by Dalinos
M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.
Thank you. And yeah, most of those polls are well over the 100 person mark.

8. Originally Posted by Teriz
That isn't how statistics works.

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Thank you. And yeah, most of those polls are well over the 100 person mark.
You know there are over 10.000 members on MMO-Champion, right? And that there might have been some alts voting on that poll.

9. Originally Posted by naeblis495
Because the druid become the animal , he isn't wearing an animal suit . Even without shifting into an animal form , the druid basic body can still do lots of things with his magic.

The tinker hide in a mech suit to protect his laughably weak main body. Just look at the dazar alor cinematic , mekatorque almost died from a balista bolt falling next to him, when jaina, a mage, tanked a direct hit without any damage.

Without their mech suit , tinker are NOTHING .
Which is an irrelevant point, because we're simply talking about mechanics here. A Guardian Druid can't tank a raid outside of Bear form. A Druid can't perform competitive DPS outside of Moonkin or Feral form.

Looking at simple game mechanics, a Tinker's default state would be a pilot form, much like the Druid caster form. The Tinker should have some abilities in this form, however their main mode of fighting would be in their mech form, just like the Druid's animal forms.

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Originally Posted by Varodoc
You know there are over 10.000 members on MMO-Champion, right? And that there might have been some alts voting on that poll.

10. Originally Posted by Teriz
Which is an irrelevant point, because we're simply talking about mechanics here. A Guardian Druid can't tank a raid outside of Bear form. A Druid can't perform competitive DPS outside of Moonkin or Feral form.

Looking at simple game mechanics, a Tinker's default state would be a pilot form, much like the Druid caster form. The Tinker should have some abilities in this form, however their main mode of fighting would be in their mech form, just like the Druid's animal forms.

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Look up what alts are, please.

11. I would assume because "engineering" is supposed to represent tinkers. Either you have a bunch of overlap between the class and the profession, or people who took the profession to get cool gadgets and devices are suddenly gonna find any new cool engineering/tech/gadget related stuff going to tinkers instead.

12. Speculating on future classes was fun at first, but since the Tinker class advocates became annoyingly stubborn and dismissive of any other fan-class theory, they just got everyone fed up of them and their ideas.

13. Originally Posted by Varodoc
Look up what alts are, please.
That's an assumption. In one poll, the Tinker got about 400+ more votes than the Necromancer. In another poll the Tinker got over 100+ more votes than any other class option. Alts cannot account for that.

14. Originally Posted by McNeil
They look at is as to goofy while the game has been that way since the very beginning. They'd rather want more edgy classes as apparently demon hunters didn't bring enough edgyness to the table.
If demon hunters didn't bring enough edge in not sure how you can make a class anymore edgy.

Demon hunters are as edgy as my chem concert in a Gillette factory

15. People are just bored of this topic every day. Let is rest for a bit.

16. Originally Posted by Kalisandra
Rogues' smoke bombs. Hunters' traps. Hunters' mechanical pets. Engineering toys and bombs. Hunters' guns. Gonbins' racial leap. There's plenty of stuff that they'll overlap with.
Except Tinkers don't use smoke bombs, traps, animal looking mechanicals, engineering toys and bombs, or Goblin's rocket boost.

Saying that all guns belong to the Hunter class is nonsense. If anything, the fact that the Tinker class could use guns is another reason they should be brought into the game.

And then there's the matter of niche. There are already a lot of pet specs - 2-3 Lock and 2-3 Hunter depending on whether the pet-less builds are available and viable plus 1 Mage and 1 DK gives 6-8 perma-pet specs, 4-6 of them being ranged. Then there's Elemental and Enhance Shamans and Shadow Priests with short duration pets - and Shamans are getting turret totems back on top of that. Thus, they probably shouldn't be a pet-spec, but there are also lots of non-pet ranged.
Tinkers would not be a pet class. The two most likely Tinker abilities that would summon robots are Turrets and Pocket Factory. Pocket Factory is a machine that the Tinker places at a targeted area and it pumps out mechanicals for its duration. Turrets are simply machines that shoot at enemy targets. Neither one of those are pets.

Then there's how they do their DPS - single-target or AoE? There are plenty of specs for both. Burst or sustained - again, both are filled. DoTs vs direct damage - again, plenty of both. Turret vs mobile? Same problem. Blizzard already has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes now.
I imagine that that would be up to Blizzard to decide. Considering that you have explosives, lasers, flame throwers, timed charges, robotic helpers, etc. It could go either way, or perhaps even a completely different way that we're not considering. Your opinion that Blizzard has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes is exactly that.

Maybe they could heal, but we've got a shield healer, and HoT healers, and direct healers. We've got ranged only healers, and melee healers. Maybe they heal and do damage via turrets and golems? Ah, but we have pets and we have totems and statues for these already, so the 'Tinker' would stomp on pet DPS and on Mistweavers and Resto Shamans and also over the part fifteen years totems have always had a mixed reception and that won't change just because they all like Goblin totems, or run into melee and blow up in a burst of healing goo.
Again, that's completely up to Blizzard to hash out. In my Tinker concept, the healing spec used Pocket Factory to deploy healing bots, turrets to construct damage reduction fields and shoot healing at friendly targets, and the Tinker could spray allies with healing sprays, or shoot bio grenades for AoE healing at a distance. For Tinker based healing, I've heard of everything from taking concepts from Overwatch (like Ana's biogrenades, or Baptiste's Healing fields), to concepts utilizing the Goblin Alchemist (which is what I did in my concept), to a combination of both. The point is that there's plenty of design space open for a science-based healer that uses technology and medicine.

It should be noted that a Tinker healer has a good chance of being the first WoW healing spec that isn't using mana to heal, since it doesn't use magic.

17. Originally Posted by Teriz
That's an assumption. In one poll, the Tinker got about 400+ more votes than the Necromancer. In another poll the Tinker got over 100+ more votes than any other class option. Alts cannot account for that.
That wasn't an official poll, it was a poll made on a fan-forum with 10k active users, of which only a fraction even participated. No one cares about that, and certainly not Blizzard. So stop mentioning those numbers (some of which might come from alts) as if they mattered.

18. Originally Posted by csguba
People are just bored of this topic every day. Let is rest for a bit.
If people are bored of this topic, they don't need to participate. They can just skip over this ONE thread and read the hundreds of other active threads on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Varodoc
That wasn't an official poll, it was a poll made on a fan-forum with 10k active users, of which only a fraction even participated. No one cares about that, and certainly not Blizzard. So stop mentioning those numbers (some of which might come from alts) as if they mattered.
Again, look up the definition of sample size when it comes to polling.

Originally Posted by Ryonas
Because Engineering.
Because the Tinker hero from WC3 and HotS.

Also because classes and professions are two entirely different things.

19. Because Engineering.

20. Originally Posted by Teriz
But they used to. It was such a terrible ability that they replaced it with a revised Serpent Sting.

If Blizzard wants to do Dark Rangers, just give MM Hunters back Black Arrow and give them Wailing Arrow from HotS.

Problem solved.
But they don't have it anymore, so its not an argument. And I mean, Dark Rangers are also a special look that the character has, being an red-eyed undead. Like, you in theory also could have turned demonology warlocks into a melee spec easily (and lets be honest, it would have been more intuitive with the metamorphosis playstyle) and called it the Demon Hunters, but a Demon Hunter is also a certain aesthetic. Especially since with Dark Rangers, Blizz actually developed the concept quite alot with Sylvanas recent new abilities and banshee form and it would be a new ranged class utilizing ranged weapons with unique abilities which doesn't takes anything existing classes have right now. Which is what you require from a new class. So the idea would be quite as viable as Tinker, especially since it is build on 1) more popular races and 2) a more popular character.

Not to forget that while Shadowlands was one opportunity for Dark Rangers, more could easily come. The entire death concept is kind of more popular with playerbases than gnomes and goblins. I would also argue that Blizz missed the opportunity to include a Tinker with Warlords of Draenor, which started as a tech-focussed expansion in which the core feature of the main antagonist was their use of advanced Goblin Technology.

Originally Posted by Teriz
That tends to happens when your race lacks a class that closely mirrors it's racial lore.

For example, here's a visual representation of the top three Night Elf Classes;

Which also happen to be the most popular Night Elf characters.

What's the most popular/well known Goblin and Gnome characters?

Something we can't play as.....
You know that one of three classes of the characters on the artwork was not playable until rather recently and the other one still isn't? With Gnomes, they have Warlocks and Mages playable, with Wilfred Fizzlebang, Nibby the Allmighty and especially Millhouse Manastorm probably being more well known and iconic gnomish characters than Mekkatorque, who was basically non existent until a small cameo at the broken shore cinematic and had no storyline ingame up until BFA, if we don't include the shortlived Gnomeragan event. Back when I started playing the game, Gnomes in the actual game where commonly depicted as Mages or Warlocks, yet they still weren't popular. When I think about other Gnome Characters I noticed more during my 13 years of playing the game up until BFA I would say Kelsey Steelspark, who is a rogue, Narain Soothfancy who seems to be a mage or Linken, a Warrior.

Mekkatorque may be currently the most well known gnome character, but this is a recent phenomena. Again, up until Legion he was basically just an NPC in Ironforge standing around randomly and doing nothing inside the entire story and even in Legion, he just had a short appereance in a cinematic centered around Varian Wrynn. It wasn't until BFA where he became more prominent. So your argument on Gnomes falls fully apart. Mekkatorque isn't in the game long enough to explain the lack of Gnome characters with them being unable to ride a Mech just like him. Especially since outside of Gnomeragan, Gnomes riding Mechs wasn't that much of a thing. It was more of a prominent Goblin thing, who though also had plenty of representation as pirates, putting them into a similar position as Night Elves in that one of two of their iconic classes are playable.

So here, I delivered it to you. An actual reasoning why especially with Gnomes, the lack of a Tinker class is not likely to be responsible for their lack of popularity while you failed to deliver a single argument outside of your personal opinion for your case. Not to forget that you constantly argue with polls to bully and harass fans of other class concepts which I consider the lowest of low levels while you willfully ignore the poll which shows that the lack of a thematically fitting class is the least reason why people don't play Gnomes, proving yourself not to be a good faith participant of this forum and making you look like a child who feels entitled to a toy he made up in his mind.

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