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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And I'll repeat: Profession imbalance IS an issue. We know this because there was a profession imbalance favoring engineering in earlier iterations of WoW and Blizzard had to effectively nerf engineering's items to bring them in line with other professions
    That's completely offtopic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    BTW, they gave the professions unique abilities in MoP and they removed it immediately in WoD because again, it wasn't worth the balancing headache, and people didn't like it. Thus your argument that it would make the game better overall has been disproven by history.
    Just because they tried to do it once and failed - doesn't mean it cannot be done right. It's way easier than adding a new class. They seem to be doing it with covenants. They did it with Heart of Azeroth. And btw, adding an ability to a profession is no different than adding an ability to a class -like there's literally zero difference other than the source of the ability lore-wise.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It could be a playable class but it doesn't mean the lore hasn't already factored them into WoW. Tinkers are Engineers in the lore.

    Gazlowe, Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are Engineers in WoW. They may have different titles like High Tinker or Siegecrafter, but they're still Engineers.
    And yet not all engineers are tinkers. Tinkers in lore are battle class. Since WC3.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the argument is that the engineering profession = the WC3 Tinker, then we should see aspects of the latter within the profession. We don't.
    But we do. It's just abstracted into looser game mechanics.

    Rockets and Bombs? Check.
    Robot minions? Check.
    Mech suits? Check.
    Engineering Upgrade? Check.

    Engineering does all of this stuff. It just doesn't do it in a specific way designed as a class, but if you're talking about a class then you're not talking lore you're talking about gameplay.

    Lore-wise, the Tinker is already represented in WoW because all Tinkers are Engineers.

    Also simply because the profession is the ONLY way to play with tech in WoW doesn't mean that it's the only way to do so in lore, nor is it intended by Blizzard to permanently be the only way players interact with tech in WoW.
    That's not how lore works, my friend. If it isn't written, it's not lore. Lore is fictional history, and you can't bank on what ifs as 'potential history'. Lore is what is already known, and as far as technology goes in WoW we already know what it is and who can use it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And yet not all engineers are tinkers. Tinkers in lore are battle class. Since WC3.
    And we don't have specific classes for Beastmasters, Dark Rangers, Necromancers, Shadow Hunters either. Just because these concepts exist in lore does not mean Blizzard has to make them playable. These concepts are abstracted into gameplay by means of Hunters, DK's and Shamans. Or if you decide that those classes do not represent them, then simply the answer is that these classes are not playable and likely never will be as their own independent classes.

    Lore does dictate WoW having a playable class for every WC3 hero title we come across. If we get a Tinker class, it's not because we need the Lore to fill in blanks. If we get a Necromancer class, it's not because we didn't have the Lore for them in WoW classes. Lore is simply fictional history, and you can't consider Necromancers and Tinkers potentially being new classes as a part of WoW's fictional history; history is what already happened not what could or is going to happen.

    Whether Blizzard decides to make a fully fledged class out of it is a different question, but if we're strictly talking about lore then we already have those elements represented in the game. At the end of the day, nothing about this has anything to do with lore, because they all already exist within Warcraft whether gameplay decides they are playable or not.

    If Blizzard does enact upon adding those types of identities as classes of their own, I'd suspect Class Skins would be the way they would do it. It's the best way to add all the B and C-tier class concepts all in one go. Wardens, Spellbreakers, Runemasters, Bards... all of them can be Class skins based on Paladins, Monks and Priests.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-27 at 05:22 PM.

  4. #524
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    So what? Are you suggesting that devices built from schematics are automatically ineffective? Because that's just ludicrous.
    Uh no. I'm saying that some schmuck who can follow a schematic isn't as technically advanced as the person who designed the schematic in the first place.

    Leader =/= best. It means they're really good at what they do and are highly effective at applying their skills in battle but that doesn't automatically mean they are literally the best. They're leaders, which simply means they LEAD people, make decisions, are highly respected and bear the burden of leadership.
    You misread what I'm saying. I'm saying that there aren't thousands of Death Knight Deathlords in Legion, there's only one.

    So, all the bombs, tanks and gadgets employed by the Iron Horde, that rival some of the strongest magic in power, were built on the fly by each of the orcs using them? The vast majority of the Iron Horde were mechanical geniuses?
    Designed by the Blackfuse company and built by Orcs. Probably from Helix Blackfuse's original designs like the Iron Reaver.


    Again, you're moving the goal posts. You just asked for someone who wasn't a Tinker that piloted mechs and tanks and used gadgets. Is the player character a Tinker, yes or no?
    The poster implied it was something that everyman can do. Using player characters as examples isn't a good example.

    That said. We've seen literal hordes of gnomish flying machines, goblin shredders, tanks, and gadgets like walking bombs throughout the life of this game. Are you trying to suggest that every single one we've seen was built AND piloted by a mechanical genius?
    Did you see any mechs in the BFA cinematic being piloted by anyone? Mekkatorque shows up later with a mech army, but they're all Gnomes. Kind of weird to be using trebuchets when you can just put someone in a mech and fly over the city and bombard it right?

    The engineering professions makes bombs that are effective at what they do. They also make guns, scopes, and gadgets that are effective at what they do.
    Then why is a Wildfire bomb supposedly constructed by a Hunter more powerful than bombs made by an Engineer?

    But most importantly, they literally make mechs that the player can use as a mount.
    From a schematic found in a journal.

    I never said every class can be an engineer LIKE Blackfuse and Mekkatorque I simply said they can build effective devices. You seem to be of this weird mind set that simply because a device is built from a schematic means that's it's ineffective. Which is laughable.

    Just because a mechanical genius can build things faster and can build effective things from scratch doesn't mean that someone else can't build something just as effective, if not MORE effective, from a schematic.
    Shouldn't a mechanical genius be able to build more effective things than a warrior who crafts engineering trinkets every once in a while?

    Are you somehow trying to argue that every Tinker goes into battle with nothing but tools and materials, and then proceeds to invent, build and deploy their creations in the heat of battle...all on the fly?
    Obviously a Tinker would build their mech suit and other devices in advance and use those devices in combat. However, a Tinker should be able to make modifications and improvements to their devices while fighting. That can be shown through cool downs or passive talents.

    What part of the idea that combatants actually prepare and train for battle is so difficult to grasp?
    I'm not aware of any point where I made that argument.

    GAME. BALANCE. That's why professions don't have rotational abilities. That's why profession items are so castrated in terms of usability and power.

    Of course a professions doesn't have rotational abilities. I simply said a Tinker would use engineering technology in battle. That means engineering type devices and abilities would be used as part of the Tinker rotation. Those abilities would likely be themed after the Tinker heroes, but that doesn't mean the abilities are not based in engineering.
    Again, what "engineering" are you talking about? If you're saying that the abilities would be based on what we see in the engineering profession, that isn't true. What we see out of WC3 and HotS (and consequently what we see in related WoW NPCs) backs that up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's completely offtopic.
    You brought it into topic by saying that profession balance ISN'T an issue. Again, it definitely is.

    Just because they tried to do it once and failed - doesn't mean it cannot be done right. It's way easier than adding a new class. They seem to be doing it with covenants. They did it with Heart of Azeroth. And btw, adding an ability to a profession is no different than adding an ability to a class -like there's literally zero difference other than the source of the ability lore-wise.
    This is entirely your opinion.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You brought it into topic by saying that profession balance ISN'T an issue. Again, it definitely is.
    Nope. I said that the imbalance you were talking about (adding abilities to engineering) - was not the issue.
    Context. It matters

    The general imbalance here and there - is as irrelevant as it is inevitable.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Feel free to show me the post where I said "most players want tinkerer".

    You can't, and you know why? Because I'm not a vapid idiot who thinks that my opinions speak for the majority of millions of people.
    This is a very incoherent response.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  7. #527
    Bloodsail Admiral Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    I really don't understand a community that hates variety so much. A technical based class with steampunk vibes is usually a staple in many fantasy games and its a clear missing component in WoW despite the myriad of technologies the world offers. Yet anytime someone suggests a desire for the class or even comes up with creative ways to implement it half the community it seems nearly has a stroke with the amount of rage they bring.
    I mean in reality it doesn't have to be called tinkerer, but i do think the game would benefit from a class that embodies a mechanical steam punk type vibe.
    You have a PR problem. Tinkerer is a goofy sounding name. I don't have a replacement suggestion. That's part one.

    Part two is that this class has no identity. Everyone can remember the mortar team from warcraft 3 or the dwarf gunmen, even the goblin sappers. Try to leverage that into your suggestions and ideas when presenting the class.

    Part three: There is no lore to draw from in the world except for gnomes and goblins, very little from dwarfs. Gnomes and goblins aren't exactly the face of warcraft, they're sidekicks at best and realistically a pair of joke races, full of nerdy stereotypes, historically relegated to comical side quests. Neither races have ever been featured in a trailer. When people who otherwise would be receptive to your ideas hear "tinkerer", they see a goofy gnome or goblin who blows themselves up, because that's what they've been exposed to the whole game. Engineering sometimes works, sometimes you kill yourself because the parachute didn't open. *oops* hehe, funny! right?
    "The best argument against democracy is a five minute scroll through twitter." - Winston Churchill

  8. #528
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But we do. It's just abstracted into looser game mechanics.

    Rockets and Bombs? Check.
    Robot minions? Check.
    Mech suits? Check.
    Engineering Upgrade? Check.

    Engineering does all of this stuff. It just doesn't do it in a specific way designed as a class, but if you're talking about a class then you're not talking lore you're talking about gameplay.

    Lore-wise, the Tinker is already represented in WoW because all Tinkers are Engineers.
    Well that didn't take long.

    Right off the bat, that's entirely false. A mount for example isn't a mech suit akin to Robo Goblin. Further, if that was Blizzard's goal, they would at least give those items the NAME of the WC3 Tinker ability. That's exactly what they did with other mechanics like Drunken Haze or Incinerate.

    That's not how lore works, my friend. If it isn't written, it's not lore. Lore is fictional history, and you can't bank on what ifs as 'potential history'. Lore is what is already known, and as far as technology goes in WoW we already know what it is and who can use it.
    Uh the Tinker hero in WC3 is lore. Gazlowe and Mekkatorque are lore. Those are examples of technology different from the engineering profession. Blizzard added those different types of tech interactions themselves, thus it's silly to believe that their goal is have us ONLY have engineering as a way for us to interact with tech.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Nope. I said that the imbalance you were talking about (adding abilities to engineering) - was not the issue.
    Context. It matters

    The general imbalance here and there - is as irrelevant as it is inevitable.
    Adding class-like abilities to engineering would cause a profession imbalance. Profession balance is an issue.

    I'm not seeing why you're having difficulty with this.

  9. #529
    Bloodsail Admiral Snowflakesz's Avatar
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    The entire class concept is just horrifyingly silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    You will eventually realize nobody takes you seriously.
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    i am no weeb. i am just a connoisseur of fine waifus.

  10. #530
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    You have a PR problem. Tinkerer is a goofy sounding name. I don't have a replacement suggestion. That's part one.
    Mechanic, Machinist, Technician, Siegecrafter, Mekgineer, etc.

    Part two is that this class has no identity. Everyone can remember the mortar team from warcraft 3 or the dwarf gunmen, even the goblin sappers. Try to leverage that into your suggestions and ideas when presenting the class.
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml
    https://heroesofthestorm.gamepedia.com/Gazlowe

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Adding class-like abilities to engineering would cause a profession imbalance. Profession balance is an issue.

    I'm not seeing why you're having difficulty with this.
    Hence to offset it they will add abilities to all professions and it won't be an issue
    And I begin to see why you are having difficulty with this.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  12. #532
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Hence to offset it they will add abilities to all professions and it won't be an issue
    And I begin to see why you are having difficulty with this.
    Yes, because we need to do this because you believe that we don't need anymore classes, so instead we stuff the engineering profession with Tinker abilities. Which in turn forces Blizzard to come up with multiple abilities for other professions.

    In the end, Blizzard would never do it, so this argument is pointless.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And we don't have specific classes for Beastmasters, Dark Rangers, Necromancers, Shadow Hunters either.
    Of course we do, it's just that they are not playable except for beastmaster which is just hunter BM.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh no. I'm saying that some schmuck who can follow a schematic isn't as technically advanced as the person who designed the schematic in the first place.
    And that means that anything that person builds from a schematic is somehow ineffective?

    You misread what I'm saying. I'm saying that there aren't thousands of Death Knight Deathlords in Legion, there's only one.
    OK? I don't really understand what this has to do with the points I'm trying to make.

    Designed by the Blackfuse company and built by Orcs. Probably from Helix Blackfuse's original designs like the Iron Reaver.
    Which means any random person can take a schematic, that's not their own, and create a HIGHLY effective device. Thanks for proving my point.

    The poster implied it was something that everyman can do. Using player characters as examples isn't a good example.
    Again, you asked for someone who isn't a Tinker that pilots and/or used technology. The player character fits that bill perfectly.

    Did you see any mechs in the BFA cinematic being piloted by anyone? Mekkatorque shows up later with a mech army, but they're all Gnomes. Kind of weird to be using trebuchets when you can just put someone in a mech and fly over the city and bombard it right?
    If you're a moron when it comes to strategy, yes. There's a reason they didn't do that, because as we've seen at least once on both sides, the Alliance and Horde both have enough air support to bombard cities and towns. Simply flying up to a city that's ready for you to come, when they also have air support and surface to air destructive capability, is just asking to get your ass handed to you.

    Then why is a Wildfire bomb supposedly constructed by a Hunter more powerful than bombs made by an Engineer?
    Game play balancing?

    See YOUR OWN previous post on profession balancing.

    And I'll repeat: Profession imbalance IS an issue. We know this because there was a profession imbalance favoring engineering in earlier iterations of WoW and Blizzard had to effectively nerf engineering's items to bring them in line with other professions. You slapping class abilities into multiple professions actually makes the game worse because you force players to level professions in order to be competitive, and it adds another layer of balancing that Blizzard has shown they don't want to deal with.

    BTW, they gave the professions unique abilities in MoP and they removed it immediately in WoD because again, it wasn't worth the balancing headache, and people didn't like it. Thus your argument that it would make the game better overall has been disproven by history.
    From a schematic found in a journal.
    So what? Literally every class can make it. And it's effective. This just proves that literally every class is capable of making highly complex, highly effective pieces of engineering technology.

    Shouldn't a mechanical genius be able to build more effective things than a warrior who crafts engineering trinkets every once in a while?
    No where did I argue otherwise. I just said that a warrior engineer is quite capable of building and using effective pieces of engineering technology.

    Obviously a Tinker would build their mech suit and other devices in advance and use those devices in combat. However, a Tinker should be able to make modifications and improvements to their devices while fighting. That can be shown through cool downs or passive talents.
    Or, those passive talents modify the base technology (meaning they modified their base tools in their "shop") and then used it in battle and those cool downs were built in functions of their pre-built technology that can only be used every once and a while.

    The idea that any person will have the ability to stop fighting and make modifications to their gadgets in the heat of battle in the middle of a battlefieldis a little crazy. There is no "pause" button on a battle field, and no enemy is going to give you the time needed to literally pause, take out your tools, take out the gadget, take it apart, modify it, put it back together and THEN finally use it.

    I'm not aware of any point where I made that argument.
    My point was that Tinkers, even as amazing technological geniuses as they, wouldn't bring technology to a battlefield that they hadn't already tested out and made sure it worked. They would "train" just like everyone else.

    You were implying that a core part of the Tinker lore is that they DO invent and use stuff on the fly. I'm saying that's not how it would actually play out in practice. Just look at the Mekkatorque and Blackfuse fights. They used pieces of technology they had already created and was available to them during the fight. They didn't create new stuff and throw it at you on the fly, they took stuff they had planned and already built and used it.

    Again, what "engineering" are you talking about? If you're saying that the abilities would be based on what we see in the engineering profession, that isn't true. What we see out of WC3 and HotS (and consequently what we see in related WoW NPCs) backs that up.
    Engineer as a theme, an idea, an action...not the literal in-game profession. As in, someone had to think about it, plan it, build it, etc... (engineer it).

    Are the abilities used by Tinkers in WC3 and HotS based on that concept? That they had to "engineer" it?

    That's what I'm saying.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, because we need to do this because you believe that we don't need anymore classes, so instead we stuff the engineering profession with Tinker abilities. Which in turn forces Blizzard to come up with multiple abilities for other professions.

    In the end, Blizzard would never do it, so this argument is pointless.
    What do you mean "forces"? Lol. If they are adding abilities to professions they don't do it because they are forced - they do it because they want to! They don't go "hey let's add abilities to engineering! Oh noes now we have to add abilities to all professions".

    Never say never. Blizzard is all about adding abilities to places they've never added abilities before. Since Vanilla. On-use trinkets anyone?
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2020 - that's two-zero-two-zero, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well that didn't take long.

    Right off the bat, that's entirely false. A mount for example isn't a mech suit akin to Robo Goblin. Further, if that was Blizzard's goal, they would at least give those items the NAME of the WC3 Tinker ability. That's exactly what they did with other mechanics like Drunken Haze or Incinerate.
    Lorewise there is no difference. The difference you're talking about isn't lore, it's gameplay mechanics.

    Engineering covers the creation of mech suits. Mekkatorque and Blackfuse have weaponized mechs because they are master Engineers, and the case for them weaponizing them is that they're major NPCs that use technology in a way that our classes haven't adapted to. Yet any class is capable of using weaponized mech suits - we can pilot Lightforged Warframes.

    Furthermore, gameplay abilities aren't lore. I have been talking about how you mentioned lore as a reason, so bringing up names of abilities is a separate matter completely. We're talking about how the Tinker is represented in the lore, and specifics like Pocket Factories or the name of Robo Goblin aren't even canonized. They're only featured in the non-canon Multiplayer of Warcraft 3, where the Night Elves can hire Pit Lords.


    Uh the Tinker hero in WC3 is lore. Gazlowe and Mekkatorque are lore. Those are examples of technology different from the engineering profession. Blizzard added those different types of tech int
    Yes, and both are Engineers in the current WoW lore. The Tinker title is a subset of Engineer. All Tinkers are Engineers. There's no lore saying we need Tinkers as something completely separate from an Engineer for it to be a class.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-27 at 06:06 PM.

  17. #537
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    hate is a strong word, most players are just thinking like teens (despite being over 30) and therefore always sound edgy/absolute etc, so their disagreement sounds like 'hatred'

    but yeah many people don't like the tinker idea at all, why?

    -goblins and gnomes: pure comedy stuff and not that funny either

    -it messes up the medieval epic flavour of the game, imo there's already too much technology in this game, it would be better with less or soon we will no longer be able to justify swords and bows

    -a flying mechasuit packed with rockets, machine guns, flamethrowers, grenades and lasers? please, those stuff are absurd even in sci-fi settings like i said above we're still using swords remember?

    -the demand to add new classes is both old and selfish, seriously we're tired of spoiled and entitled people that believe the game should spend resources in order to accomodate their every whim, all the core classes are there, in fact we didn't even need monks in the first place but whatever...

    -we have enough classes already, it would be wiser to spent the development time to enrich them rather than add new ones
    I don't see Goblins and Gnomes as pure comedy, do you laugh at short people on the street? Besides WoW has never been something to take itself too seriously

    Warcraft has had technology in the game since the RTS...if people had a problem with technology then the writing was on the wall from the start that this wasn't the game for them. Besides another thing that has been here since the beginning...you really seem to hate things that have been in the game since the start...

    Mech suits have also been around since the beginning

    I'm starting to see a trend here, you hate stuff that has been in the game from the beginning and love to complain about it rather than move on to something else that would cause you less anguish.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. Lore wise yes.
    2. Like Iron Man they’ll have their inventions ready to go before they start adventuring.
    3. Gallywix had his mech specially built for him.
    4. Like who?
    5. Same reason there were Monks in WoW before MoP who didn’t have Keg Smash, SEF, or Breath of Fire.




    1. Uh no, it’s a literal fact that an item and an ability are two entirely different things in WoW.
    2. Thats what inventors do.
    3. Saying that professions are the same as classes and ignoring evidence to the contrary isn’t head canon, it’s being obtuse.



    Except the HotS abilities have shown up in WoW on multiple occasions, so while it isn’t lore, Blizzard DOES pull abilities and concepts from HotS and uses them for WoW. This includes Gazlowe’s Tinker abilities.

    Why doesn’t he have his Claw Pack from WC3 and HotS? Probably the same reason Death Knights were using Warlock and Warrior abilities before WotLK; Blizzard hasn’t implemented it into WoW yet.
    Are you insane? You just contradicted your entire argument about professions being different than abilites by stating lorewise they would be building everything but in game they would just be abilities and to further prove my point that item abilites are no different from "abilites" lorewise do you think a hunter is magically pulling a trap from his ass? Lorewise he is using an item. Lorewise they use bullets/arrows which surprise surprise is an item. How on earth do you not understand that lorewise a rogue pulling a pistol out and shooting someone is the exact same as if it was an engineering item? He's not just manifesting a pistol from his mind.

    3. Gallywix isn't a tinker and still uses a mech. That proves you don't have to magically create your own idea from scratch to be a mech user or by your concept a tinker.

    4. Like the thousands of pilots and other named npcs that pilot mechs without showing any inventiveness? Like the Goblin pilots in the goblin scenario etc.... Do you think all those goblin shredders were each individually invented by the goblin that pilots them? Or did you know the actual creators hang back and build them and have scrubs/disposable people use them? I forget who ended up creating Gallywix's mech and who piloted it??? Hmmm........


    Yes Gazlowe has a single ability from Hots called Xplodium Charge. And I forget what was Gazlowe's Warcraft 3 base unit?? Oh yeah a sapper. And what was he called? An engineer. And what's his official class in WoW? Engineer. And what were sappers and engineers known for? Bombs. What did tinkers use? Rockets which are a thousand times more complex. And what is Xplodium charge? A Bomb. So could it be that the Hots team gave him an ability related to his real profession so people wouldn't bitch as much when they took him and turned him into a tinker since there aren't really any known goblin tinkers? Or could it be that the Hots team doesn't give a shit about actual lore and just designs characters around what are good kits and "cool" concepts and used Gazlowe as a tinker because they needed a known goblin and wanted a tinker?
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-07-27 at 06:07 PM.

  19. #539
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And that means that anything that person builds from a schematic is somehow ineffective?
    In some cases yes. Hence why there's a chance of backfire with engineering profession items, and why some items become ineffective at higher levels.


    OK? I don't really understand what this has to do with the points I'm trying to make.
    You were arguing that an inventor inventing abilities wouldn't work with WoW gameplay. I was pointing out that Blizzard has made individual aspects in WoW before, like the class leaders in legion.

    Which means any random person can take a schematic, that's not their own, and create a HIGHLY effective device. Thanks for proving my point.
    Not really, since the Blackrock Orcs were the builders of those devices, and they were highly skilled blacksmiths and artisans.

    Again, you asked for someone who isn't a Tinker that pilots and/or used technology. The player character fits that bill perfectly.
    Which is like saying anyone can pilot a helicopter because Captain America did it.


    If you're a moron when it comes to strategy, yes. There's a reason they didn't do that, because as we've seen at least once on both sides, the Alliance and Horde both have enough air support to bombard cities and towns. Simply flying up to a city that's ready for you to come, when they also have air support and surface to air destructive capability, is just asking to get your ass handed to you.
    Again you miss the point. If mechs are so common, why weren't the present at the battle of Lordaeran? Why was Mekkatorque the only one with a mech on broken shore?


    Game play balancing?

    See YOUR OWN previous post on profession balancing.
    But if engineers are supposedly on par with Tinkers, or any class that has a bomb as their class ability why would need to balance engineering?


    So what? Literally every class can make it. And it's effective. This just proves that literally every class is capable of making highly complex, highly effective pieces of engineering technology.
    I would hesitate to call them effective. Most engineering weapons are mere toys. And the only way they build these toys is through instructions from highly skilled engineers. It should also be noted that the Sky Golem is noticeably weaker than Blackfuse, Gazlowe's, or Marin's Shredders.

    No where did I argue otherwise. I just said that a warrior engineer is quite capable of building and using effective pieces of engineering technology.
    I disagree.

    Or, those passive talents modify the base technology (meaning they modified their base tools in their "shop") and then used it in battle and those cool downs were built in functions of their pre-built technology that can only be used every once and a while.


    The idea that any person will have the ability to stop fighting and make modifications to their gadgets in the heat of battle in the middle of a battlefieldis a little crazy. There is no "pause" button on a battle field, and no enemy is going to give you the time needed to literally pause, take out your tools, take out the gadget, take it apart, modify it, put it back together and THEN finally use it.[/quote]

    You mean the way the battle pauses for a spell caster to chant magic words to cast a spell? Why can't a Tinker simply press a button and make his Turrets upgrade, or have his pocket factory churn out robots more quickly?

    My point was that Tinkers, even as amazing technological geniuses as they, wouldn't bring technology to a battlefield that they hadn't already tested out and made sure it worked. They would "train" just like everyone else.

    You were implying that a core part of the Tinker lore is that they DO invent and use stuff on the fly. I'm saying that's not how it would actually play out in practice. Just look at the Mekkatorque and Blackfuse fights. They used pieces of technology they had already created and was available to them during the fight. They didn't create new stuff and throw it at you on the fly, they took stuff they had planned and already built and used it.
    I'm not implying it, that's the lore of the RPG class and seemingly the WC3 hero. That said, it's a rather meaningless argument because the only thing that matters is the class mechanics. If a Tinker drops a Pocket factory in the game, and activates a cooldown to make it pump out robots more quickly, it really doesn't matter if he had it planned that way, or is upgrading it on the spot.

    Engineer as a theme, an idea, an action...not the literal in-game profession. As in, someone had to think about it, plan it, build it, etc... (engineer it).

    Are the abilities used by Tinkers in WC3 and HotS based on that concept? That they had to "engineer" it?

    That's what I'm saying.
    Again, I think we're getting into the weeds with semantics and psuedo-lore. The abilities used by Tinkers in WC3 and HotS are based on the concept of using technology to destroy a target and increase the Tinkers abilities to destroy that target. Translated into WoW, it's the same concept, just used to perform class roles. That's it and that's all.

    And it's a marked difference from the concept of the profession which is to build items to sell to other players.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, until you provide stated lore that says that professions and classes are the same, you stating so is nothing more than head canon.
    I have basic logic, narrative logic, and in-game evidence showing many similarities between the two, and none showing any real difference between the two.

    I've already explained this.
    All you did was display blatant double-standard and dishonest hypocrisy. You cannot pick-and-choose when gameplay is lore and when it isn't. That's like saying midi-chlorians aren't canon to the Star Wars story because you don't like how it "devalues the Force."

    None are prominent.
    Neither was Chen Stormstrout. Before MoP, he was only ever mentioned once, and even then, just in passing, for teaching an orc how to brew booze.

    That is from a quest in the Barrens.

    That you acquire by finding a random, indistinct barrel on the ground.

    A barrel that didn't have a golden "!" above it. Nor did it glow. Because that's how it used to be back in the day.

    A barrel that spawned randomly through The Barrens.

    Again, the game and the lore characters don't back up that assessment.
    Really? Because Gazlowe is never called a tinker. And neither was Blackfuse.

    Semantics.
    You're trolling, aren't you? That is not semantics. Evidence that disproves your claim is not semantics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    With that said, why would it be a complete deal breaker for a Tinker class to have a mixed bag of some stuff they made and created themselves, mixed with stuff they learned and memorized from someone else?
    Because he can't understand concepts. The WC3 unit was called an "inventor" and so that somehow means the Goblin Tinker invents EVERYTHING they use, and nothing they know came from a mentor or trainer, they did so all by themselves, no help whatsoever. He actually believes people "learn things spontaneously by themselves" in Warcraft. He really does.

    Why wouldn't a warrior be able to do this? Warriors can be Engineers right? The Engineering profession can build effective bombs and devices right?

    Again, if you're trying to argue that the difference is in the cooldown and that somehow reflects on the effectiveness of the actual device, and that it's not simply balancing game mechanics, you're delusional.
    Well, Teriz believes that it's canon to the lore of Warcraft that the people in that world can run from Silvermoon to Booty Bay while carrying over thirty tons of weight on their shoulders, without stopping even once, and arriving to Booty Bay without being slightly winded. He also believes that a set of full plate armor still allows you to float and swim unimpeded in the water. And I have him on record saying such.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

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