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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    I wouldn’t put much stock into that quote. For example, characters who become brewmasters through brew fest aren’t the same as the Brewmaster in the Monk class.

    Like I said, the lore is through the abilities and the fact that they’re called Tinkers. And yes, the abilities are canon as well.

    And btw, it’s Tinkers not “tinkerers”.
    Then where are the Tinkers of WoW as distinctly as they appear in WC3? There doesn't seem to be any indication that they are any different from Engineers. You may not put much stock in the quotes but you do realize that there has been zero evidence that states Tinkers are any different from an Engineer.

    Even the entire concept of Tinkers only invent while Engineers use schematics is a fallacy derived through observed gameplay, rather than addressing the lore. Mekkatorque is an Engineer and he invents. Gazlowe is also an Engineer and he invents. That's the lore so far in WoW.

    Brewmasters in Brewfest are not an extension of the Monk class, but we have a pretty clear definition of Monk and Brewmaster is simply a name for a Specialization of said class. If the Monk Class didn't exist, then yes Pandaren Brewmasters would be associated with the same title as the NPCs in Brewfest; they're Masters of Brewing. We wouldn't be regarding them in any different terms considering they are one and the same; just like we don't regard the non-Illidari Demon Hunters any differently than the ones Illidan personally trained during TBC. They are the same class and title, albeit different groups within the same faction.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-29 at 10:53 PM.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Link to that poll please.



    Really? Which ones?



    Why would a mechanical genius need to use schematics?



    Focus on the DK in a death themed expansion with no Necromancer class in sight....

    Oh well.



    Actually according to Blizzard, every game they release is canon. This includes Reforged.

    I’m not going to argue with Blizzard....

    - - - Updated - - -



    I wouldn’t put much stock into that quote. For example, characters who become brewmasters through brew fest aren’t the same as the Brewmaster in the Monk class.

    Like I said, the lore is through the abilities and the fact that they’re called Tinkers. And yes, the abilities are canon as well.

    And btw, it’s Tinkers not “tinkerers”.
    Just go to the official forums. I never mentioned one specific poll so I'm not going to go out of my way to find one thread because I know how you shape arguments. You'll predictably disregard and say "That's just one thread".

    As I said, I'm not going to bother listing the items again because you've already proven to me that you're utterly incapable of admitting when you're wrong. I did it once before and you gave a shallow and borderline nonsensical argument so not gonna waste my time AGAIN.

    Because they're still mortal. They're not living computers. Even Tony Stark needed schematics sometimes in the comics. And once again, there is zero evidence suggesting all Tinkers as genius inventors.

    It could be possible that Blizzard wanted to focus on other parts of the expansion. the class likely got dropped in favor of the worthless cosmetic options for the races similar to WoD.

    My point is that Reforged didn't change the canon. And also, no. They have not said that because Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm are NOT canon.

    Also for the record, no. Abilities are NOT canon. Game mechanics =/= lore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then where are the Tinkers of WoW as distinctly as they appear in WC3? There doesn't seem to be any indication that they are any different from Engineers. You may not put much stock in the quotes but you do realize that there has been zero evidence that states Tinkers are any different from an Engineer.

    Even the entire concept of Tinkers only invent while Engineers use schematics is a fallacy derived through observed gameplay, rather than addressing the lore. Mekkatorque is an Engineer and he invents. Gazlowe is also an Engineer and he invents. That's the lore so far in WoW.

    Brewmasters in Brewfest are not an extension of the Monk class, but we have a pretty clear definition of Monk and Brewmaster is simply a name for a Specialization of said class. If the Monk Class didn't exist, then yes Pandaren Brewmasters would be associated with the same title as the NPCs in Brewfest; they're Masters of Brewing. We wouldn't be regarding them in any different terms considering they are one and the same; just like we don't regard the non-Illidari Demon Hunters any differently than the ones Illidan personally trained during TBC. They are the same class and title, albeit different groups within the same faction.
    He also disregards that Tinkers are literally described as being engineers too. "Tinkers (or tinkerers and tinkologists) are engineers mostly represented by gnomes, goblins, and dwarves of the Alliance, Horde and the Venture Company."

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The lore doesn’t need to. We’re talking about a type of engineer that is made distinct by name and ability. WoW never establishes them as the same as the profession because the profession doesn’t house anything of their abilities or attributes. If Blizzards goal was to make the profession reflect the hero, they would give the profession the Tinker’s abilities as items with at least the same name. They would also allow you to construct the claw pack too.

    Since that isn’t the case, then it’s pretty obvious that we’re talking about two separate entities.
    Except Gazlowe and Mekkatorque are both considered Engineers in WoW. So what we have is an example of Engineers using Mech Suits in combat.

    Unrivaled in their ingenuity, Gelbin Mekkatorque's inventions have been instrumental to the Alliance's attack on Dazar'alor. His state-of-the-art armor is outfitted with the latest--and deadliest--ordnance that gnomish engineering can offer


    If Blackfuse were actually referred to as a Tinker, then you'd have a strong argument. However, in the Dungeon Journal you'll see he's referred to as an Engineer.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Siegecrafter_Blackfuse

    Helix Blackfuse was the only goblin with the combination of engineering prowess, professionalism and ruthlessness to satisfy Garrosh in his search for the engineer of the True Horde. A mercenary at heart, Blackfuse's love for his creations (and the gold they fetch) has forever linked his fate with that of his patron and Warchief.

    At no point is Tinker ever used to describe Blackfuse in WoW. Where is the distinction we're talking about if Blackfuse, creator of mechs and weapons and your own cited inspiration for the Tinker class, is an Engineer?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-29 at 11:02 PM.

  4. #784
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then where are the Tinkers of WoW as distinctly as they appear in WC3? There doesn't seem to be any indication that they are any different from Engineers. You may not put much stock in the quotes but you do realize that there has been zero evidence that states Tinkers are any different from an Engineer.
    Just like the Pandaren Monk, you more than likely won’t see it until they bring the class into WoW. However, their existence is established via Reforged. Frankly it was established in Frozen Throne, but Reforged makes it “official” for some detractors. Again, the “evidence” is the WC3 Tinker hero which is canon lore in warcraft.

    Other evidence would be Tinker abilities from HotS in Island Expedition.

    Even the entire concept of Tinkers only invent while Engineers use schematics is a fallacy derived through observed gameplay, rather than addressing the lore. Mekkatorque is an Engineer and he invents. Gazlowe is also an Engineer and he invents. That's the lore so far in WoW.
    And as I’ve said before, you clearly have multiple levels of engineering present in WoW. You have the profession engineers who are pretty much hobbyists. You have the engineering trainers and structural engineers, pretty much NPCs who train hobbyists and build stuff around Azeroth. You have the super engineers like Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, Blackfuse, and (perhaps) Gazlowe who are like the Tony Starks building incredible devices and accomplishing feats on their own. And finally you have the Tinker class, which is the playable super Engineer.

    How do we know this? The ability differences.

    Brewmasters in Brewfest are not an extension of the Monk class, but we have a pretty clear definition of Monk and Brewmaster is a Specialization of said class. Nothing like this exists for Tinker in WoW.
    And the engineering profession, or an off quote about engineering is an extension of the Tinker class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just go to the official forums. I never mentioned one specific poll so I'm not going to go out of my way to find one thread because I know how you shape arguments. You'll predictably disregard and say "That's just one thread".
    So there’s no poll that you can link to to support your claim here.

    Shocking....

    As I said, I'm not going to bother listing the items again because you've already proven to me that you're utterly incapable of admitting when you're wrong.
    Shocking.....

    Because they're still mortal. They're not living computers. Even Tony Stark needed schematics sometimes in the comics. And once again, there is zero evidence suggesting all Tinkers as genius inventors.
    Stark built the arc reactor without schematics.

    It could be possible that Blizzard wanted to focus on other parts of the expansion. the class likely got dropped in favor of the worthless cosmetic options for the races similar to WoD.
    A more likely scenario is that they view DKs as Necromancers since they put necromancer concepts into the DK class back in WotLK.

    My point is that Reforged didn't change the canon. And also, no. They have not said that because Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm are NOT canon.
    Yeah, they specifically said that those games are not canon, but reforged is. Hearthstone and HotS are in a special category. Reforged is not in that category because it’s a Warcraft game.

    Also for the record, no. Abilities are NOT canon. Game mechanics =/= lore.
    So it’s not lore that Illidan has metamorphosis? That’s interesting because that’s how Warlocks learned metamorphosis in lore.

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just like the Pandaren Monk, you more than likely won’t see it until they bring the class into WoW. However, their existence is established via Reforged.
    Reforged establishes that Gazlowe is an Engineer. It's still present in the campaign text if you haven't actually played through it. At no point in the campaign is he ever called a Tinker.

    But the fact that he's using a Tinker skin now confirms that Engineers also use clawpacks and Robo Goblin form. That's what Reforged confirms. Tinker = Engineer.

    And as I’ve said before, you clearly have multiple levels of engineering present in WoW. You have the profession engineers who are pretty much hobbyists. You have the engineering trainers and structural engineers, pretty much NPCs who train hobbyists and build stuff around Azeroth. You have the super engineers like Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, Blackfuse, and (perhaps) Gazlowe who are like the Tony Starks building incredible devices and accomplishing feats on their own. And finally you have the Tinker class, which is the playable super Engineer.
    Lore makes zero distinction between any of these. These levels don't exist when Engineering is ever regarded in the game. The name Tinker is synonymous with Engineering of all levels you discuss here as well.

    Hobbyist level - WoD Garrison regarding hobbyists as intrepid Tinkerers
    NPC Trainers - Very straight forward. Tinkmaster Overspark is an Engineering trainer. Master Tinker Trini is an Engineer NPC.
    Super Engineers - They're still Engineers in WoW.
    Tinker class - None formally exists in WoW. There is zero lore regarding any playable Tinker class. Every mention of a Tinker is the same as an Engineer.

    How do we know this? The ability differences.
    You mean like Blackfuse or the Island Expedition Engineers? Who are all Engineers?

    Or Mekkatorque's abilities which are specifically called out as being the best thats offered from Gnomish Engineering?

    And the engineering profession, or an off quote about engineering is an extension of the Tinker class.
    Yes, which makes them one and the same as Engineers. Again, it's synonymous the way Fighter and Thief are interchangeable with Warrior and Rogue.

    Even the Cult of the Damned maintains that Necromancers are a completely separate thing from Arthas, Bolvar and the Death Knights. The Tinkers Union, Tinkers Court, High Tinker title all still refer to the same Engineers in the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-29 at 11:53 PM.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just like the Pandaren Monk, you more than likely won’t see it until they bring the class into WoW. However, their existence is established via Reforged. Frankly it was established in Frozen Throne, but Reforged makes it “official” for some detractors. Again, the “evidence” is the WC3 Tinker hero which is canon lore in warcraft.

    Other evidence would be Tinker abilities from HotS in Island Expedition.



    And as I’ve said before, you clearly have multiple levels of engineering present in WoW. You have the profession engineers who are pretty much hobbyists. You have the engineering trainers and structural engineers, pretty much NPCs who train hobbyists and build stuff around Azeroth. You have the super engineers like Mekkatorque, Thermaplugg, Blackfuse, and (perhaps) Gazlowe who are like the Tony Starks building incredible devices and accomplishing feats on their own. And finally you have the Tinker class, which is the playable super Engineer.

    How do we know this? The ability differences.



    And the engineering profession, or an off quote about engineering is an extension of the Tinker class.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So there’s no poll that you can link to to support your claim here.

    Shocking....



    Shocking.....



    Stark built the arc reactor without schematics.



    A more likely scenario is that they view DKs as Necromancers since they put necromancer concepts into the DK class back in WotLK.



    Yeah, they specifically said that those games are not canon, but reforged is. Hearthstone and HotS are in a special category. Reforged is not in that category because it’s a Warcraft game.



    So it’s not lore that Illidan has metamorphosis? That’s interesting because that’s how Warlocks learned metamorphosis in lore.
    I will respond to your first two comments in this one. I am not going to waste my time because I've done it in the past and you disregarded it because it didn't fit your narrative. I have no desire to waste my time AGAIN.

    Ok? That is literally ONE thing he built without schematics. It's not the only thing he's built. He's also had help building things from characters like Bruce Banner because he's still just a regular mortal human and not a walking supercomputer.

    That is speculation. My speculation is just as likely as yours. Until we hear something definitive from Blizzard, all we have is speculation.

    They actually retracted their statement about Reforged after it was revealed the story was not being reworked like they originally planned.

    I have NEVER seen anything suggesting that Warlocks learned Metamorphosis from Illidan. The vast majority of player abilities are absolutely not canon. Using game mechanics to support lore debates is absolutely asinine.

  7. #787
    Brewmaster Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I don't think the Necromancer fantasy is fulfilled by Death Knights. Death Knights are melee combatants. Necromancers are ranged spellcasters. The two might share thematics but Necromancers don't have to take things away from Death Knights to be viable imo.

    Personally if I were to make a Necromancer class, it would be a cloth wearer with three specs:

    Hemomancy, blood magic similar to that used by the Blood trolls. Ranged DPS role focusing on dealing damage through direct damage spells. This is very different from the powers used by Blood spec Death Knights and fulfills an entirely different role.

    Reanimation, the traditional Necromancer's "animate the dead" spec. Ranged DPS role focusing on dealing damage through a combination of direct damage spells and pets. The way I imagined this spec is as having one of three animated undead pets out depending on the need of the moment. A melee focused tanking pet with taunt, a ranged focused dps pet with snare ability, and a melee focused dps pet with interrupt. Ranged dps abilities would be mostly bone themed, like hurling bone spikes as a single target nuke.

    Spiritualism, a Healing Role that uses a variety of different skills to sustain allies. This would be a more "spectral" themed caster. Using spirit magic to heal, res, buff, and deal damage.

    This is just a basic idea and yes each spec does have similar stuff from other classes but as a whole I think this concept provides a unique overall class experience. It's only a pet class as Reanimation Spec and its not super "summon a bunch of dudes" the way Demonology is today. It's a more "mage-like" class as Hemomancy spec since its a petless ranged nuker. And finally unlike mages or warlocks, it has a healing spec. Maybe no one else would, but I'd totally play something like this, and I'd certainly prefer this over a Tinker.
    Agreed. DKs are more 'Dark Knight' than Necromancer to me. When I think of a Necromancer, I don't think of heavy armor and a sword, I think of a robed individual weirding spirit magic, and with several zombies/skeletons at his/her feet. Plus we now have Anima, which could fuel their spells

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  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it’s a pretty large example, because that tech went on to power the Iron Horde, and I don’t recall their tech misfiring much either.
    But weren't you who called the Iron Horde tech to be "low tech" since it's all steam engine stuff?

    In the case of Gazlowe, that is a writer, because a Blizzard writer decided at some point that Gazlowe was a Tinker.
    I'm sorry, but no. The guy that put a "goblin tinker" model on Gazlowe for WC3:R is the same guy that put draenei buildings for orcs, as well as all the other lore inconsistencies displayed in graphic form.

    And Blizzard didn't "make" Gazlowe a tinker.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Even the entire concept of Tinkers only invent while Engineers use schematics is a fallacy derived through observed gameplay, rather than addressing the lore. Mekkatorque is an Engineer and he invents. Gazlowe is also an Engineer and he invents. That's the lore so far in WoW.
    Not just a fallacy, but just plain wrong, as I've demonstrated here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    First, a snipet of the original WoW profession page:

    "Engineers take advantage of their inventiveness to create an immense (and occasionally random) variety of helpful items. By tinkering ceaselessly, and tolerating malfunctions and misfires, an engineer can make utterly unique objects: sight-enhancing goggles, potent guns, robot pets, mechanical mounts, and even more unusual trinkets. Successful engineers use their inventions to solve problems and make life easier, faster, and better for themselves and their companions."
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Paladin doesnt make sense to have a ranged dps class, that would be awful.
    Why not?

    Holy Shock, Exorcism, and Judgement have all had full caster range at various times, and that's most of a rotation right there. Add in a ranged-spec only filler spell (or these days give it Exorcism back), and a Holy Power dump and it's set.

    I don't think it's a necessary addition, or particularly interesting, but it's hardly a big stretch from what Paladins have tended to have in their toolkit in the past when Ret made up for low mobility with the ability to do some damage at range and to build Holy Power with that damage so when they did get melee contact they could do good burst.

  10. #790
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The results would surprise me? Why don't you actually link evidence. Oh wait you can't because the fact of the matter is no class had all its abilities directly translated from warcraft 3. And even if they had all been brought over, the visuals of many of them are different than they are in warcraft 3 like the shadowy demon hunter form or immolation so even if they added a pocket factory skill (maybe even turning it into a passive) it does not mean it would need to look exactly the same.
    Yeah, wrong.

    Death Knight WC3/WoW

    Death Coil:
    A coil of death that can damage an enemy living unit or heal a friendly undead unit.

    Death Coil (WotLK)
    40 Runic Power 30 - 40 yd range
    Instant cast
    Fire a blast of unholy energy, causing 443 Shadow damage to an enemy target or healing 664.5 damage from a friendly Undead target.

    Death Pact:
    Kills a target friendly unit, giving a percentage of its hit points to the Death Knight.

    Death Pact (WotLK)
    Sacrifices an undead minion, healing the Death Knight for 40% of <his/her> maximum health. This heal cannot be a critical.

    Unholy Aura:
    Increases the movement speed and life regeneration rate of nearby friendly units.

    Unholy Aura (WotLK)
    All party or raid members within 45 yards of the Death Knight move X% faster. This effect does not stack with other movement improving effects.


    Animate Dead:
    Raises 6 dead units in an area to fight for the Death Knight. Animated units are invulnerable.

    Army of the Dead
    Channeled 10 min cooldown
    Summons an entire legion of Ghouls to fight for the Death Knight. The Ghouls will swarm the area, taunting and fighting anything they can. While channelling Army of the Dead, the Death Knight takes less damage equal to Ghis:her; Dodge plus Parry chance.

    Monk (Brewmaster) WC3/WoW

    Breath of Fire
    Breathes a cone of fire at enemy units which deals damage. Units that have Drunken Haze on them will ignite and take burn damage over time.

    Breath of Fire (MoP)
    Breathe fire on targets in front of you, causing (23.751% of Attack power) Fire damage.

    Targets affected by Keg Smash will also burn, taking (19.656% of Attack power) Fire damage and dealing 5% reduced damage to you for 12 sec.

    Drunken Haze
    Drenches a target enemy unit in alcohol, causing its movement speed to be reduced, and have a chance to miss on attacks. When units with Drunken Haze cast on them are hit by Breath of Fire, they will ignite and take burn damage over time.

    Dizzying Haze (MoP)
    You hurl a keg of your finest brew, reducing the movement speed of all enemies within 8 yards by 50% for 15 sec. Deals a high amount of threat.

    Affected targets have a 3% chance to have their melee attacks misfire and strike themselves instead for damage.

    Drunken Brawler (Passive)
    Gives a percent chance to avoid attacks and a 10% chance to deal additional damage.

    Elusive Brawler
    Each time you are hit by a melee attack, or hit with Blackout Strike, you gain stacking 8.0% increased Dodge chance until your next successful Dodge.

    Also increases your attack power by 8.0%.

    Storm Earth Fire:
    Splits the Pandaren Brewmaster into elements, forming 3 specialized warriors. If any of them survive until the end of their summoned timer, the Brewmaster is reborn.

    Storm, Earth and Fire (MoP)
    Instant
    The Monk splits, summoning an elemental spirit to attack the target. The Monk can split into up to 2 elemental spirits at a time.

    The spirits will attack their targets and mirror your damaging abilities. However, for each elemental spirit summoned the Monk's own damage will be reduced.
    1 Spirit Summoned - Monk and spirit deal 70% of the Monk's normal damage.
    2 Spirits Summoned - Monk and spirits deal 55% of the Monk's normal damage.
    The elemental spirits will last until the Monk cancels the effect or their target dies or is otherwise unavailable.



    Demon Hunter: WC3/WoW

    Mana Burn:
    Sends a bolt of negative energy that burns a target enemy unit's mana. Burned mana combusts, dealing damage to the target equal to the amount of mana burned.

    Mana Burn (WoW Classic, Priest)
    Requires level 56
    Drains 746 to 789 mana from a target. For each mana drained in this way, the target takes 0.5 Shadow damage.

    Immolation:
    Engulfs the Demon Hunter in flames, causing damage to nearby enemy land units. Drains mana until deactivated.

    Immolation Aura: (WotLK, Warlock)
    Channeled 30 sec cooldown
    Ignites the area surrounds you, causing 251 Fire damage to all nearby enemies every 1 sec. Lasts 15 sec.

    Evasion:
    Gives the Demon Hunter a chance to avoid attacks.

    Evasion: (WoW classic, Rogue)
    The rogue's dodge chance will increase by 50% for 15 sec.

    Metamorphosis:
    Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (60 range) and 500 bonus hit points.

    Metamorphosis:
    You transform into a Demon for 30 sec. This form increases your armor by 600%, damage by 20%, reduces the chance you'll be critically hit by melee attacks by 6% and reduces the duration of stun and snare effects by 50%. You gain some unique demon abilities in addition to your normal abilities. 3 minute cooldown.


    Those are all pretty darn close, considering that we're translating from a RTS to a MMO.

    And even if they did exist in wow once they no longer do. Showing its not a requirement to 1 for 1 the abilities of the warcraft 3 heroes.

    If you continue to troll and lie without producing evidence I'm going to start reporting you because you are clearly just baiting people.
    Except the point is that those abilities are very close to the WC3 original when they are INTRODUCED into WoW. That means if a Tinker is brought into the game, they will have at least an expansion where their abilities are modeled closely after the WC3 incarnation. Further, there are cases when Blizzard modifies an older spell to more closely resemble the WC3 incarnation (the Glyph for Searing Totem to become Serpent Ward, Starfall, Black Arrow).

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    I think the problem is backwards. It is clear players like new classes and a caster in the image of Kel'thuzad could be a fun class.
    Which version? In HotS he's basically a Frost Mage with a couple of DK-like abilities. In Warcraft III the abilitiesa are again, basically a Frost Mage with Death & Decay. In Naxx he's basically an over-powered (mostly Frost) Mage. Big deal.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because expansion classses have gotten all of their WC3 abilities either translated directly or indirectly.
    Two questions:
    • Where is the demon hunter's mana burn?
    • Would the tech class just randomly spawning walking bombs with their abilities count as "indirectly translating" pocket factory?

    You should view these abilities as they were when they were first introduced into WoW. The results will surprise you.
    You need to stop flip-flopping back-and-forth with this "the way things used to be doesn't matter" and "the way things used to be are important". They're two diametrically opposing viewpoints. You'll end up getting severe whiplash from that.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  13. #793
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Reforged establishes that Gazlowe is an Engineer. It's still present in the campaign text if you haven't actually played through it. At no point in the campaign is he ever called a Tinker.
    Which is fine. Engineer is often used as a title.

    But the fact that he's using a Tinker skin now confirms that Engineers also use clawpacks and Robo Goblin form. That's what Reforged confirms. Tinker = Engineer.
    Then where is the Clawpack and Robo-goblin form in the engineering profession?

    Lore makes zero distinction between any of these. These levels don't exist when Engineering is ever regarded in the game. The name Tinker is synonymous with Engineering of all levels you discuss here as well.
    Semantics.

    Hobbyist level - WoD Garrison regarding hobbyists as intrepid Tinkerers
    NPC Trainers - Very straight forward. Tinkmaster Overspark is an Engineering trainer. Master Tinker Trini is an Engineer NPC.
    Super Engineers - They're still Engineers in WoW.
    Tinker class - None formally exists in WoW. There is zero lore regarding any playable Tinker class. Every mention of a Tinker is the same as an Engineer.
    Oh look, more semantics.

    You mean like Blackfuse or the Island Expedition Engineers? Who are all Engineers?
    And even more semantics.


    Here's the deal, when you purposely override functional differences simply because the words are synonymous with each other, you're not being honest. Thus, it's really not worth having a discussion with you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That is speculation. My speculation is just as likely as yours. Until we hear something definitive from Blizzard, all we have is speculation.
    Blizzard already said that they used Necromancer concepts to create the DK. Them saying that no new class fits an expansion revolving around death and having Necromancers and Kel'thuzad seems like a pretty obvious fit. However, if you choose not to believe it, that's your business.

    They actually retracted their statement about Reforged after it was revealed the story was not being reworked like they originally planned.
    Yes, they kept the story the same as WC3. That doesn't change the fact that as a Warcraft game, it is considered canon.

    Maybe this will help you out.

    I have NEVER seen anything suggesting that Warlocks learned Metamorphosis from Illidan. The vast majority of player abilities are absolutely not canon. Using game mechanics to support lore debates is absolutely asinine.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kanrethad_Ebonlocke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But weren't you who called the Iron Horde tech to be "low tech" since it's all steam engine stuff?
    Yes, it is low tech for the most part, but it was still reliable and not prone to misfires.

    I'm sorry, but no. The guy that put a "goblin tinker" model on Gazlowe for WC3:R is the same guy that put draenei buildings for orcs, as well as all the other lore inconsistencies displayed in graphic form.

    And Blizzard didn't "make" Gazlowe a tinker.
    Uh Gazlowe is a character owned by Blizzard, so you can't do anything officially to the character without Blizzard's permission. Who do you think published Heroes of the Storm and Reforged? Blizzard approved both of those games, and both of those games feature Gazlowe as a Tinker. Further, Blizzard also had to approve Gazlowe having Tinker abilities in WoW for Island Expeditions.

    Do you think some random person is doing this under Blizzard's nose or something?

  14. #794
    It has nothing to do with Tinkerer... for me anyway. I has more to do with the fact Blizzard can't even balance the classes we already have, adding a new one to the mix would just make that problem worse.

  15. #795
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Two questions:
    • Where is the demon hunter's mana burn?
    • Would the tech class just randomly spawning walking bombs with their abilities count as "indirectly translating" pocket factory?
    1. We've been over this countless times. Mana Burn was removed from the game because of balance concerns. Other mana draining spells like Drain mana, and Classic Wyvern Sting got similar treatment. As consolation, Demon Hunters got a PvP ability with Mana in the title (don't feel like looking it up).

    2. No.


    You need to stop flip-flopping back-and-forth with this "the way things used to be doesn't matter" and "the way things used to be are important". They're two diametrically opposing viewpoints. You'll end up getting severe whiplash from that.
    Like I said I'm using the original iterations of the spells to show that when these abilities FIRST enter WoW they're closer translations to the original WC3 base. Over time they get changed due to balance and specialization changes. The relevant point for the Tinker is that that means that if they're brought in as a class their WC3 abilities would more than likely also be fairly close translations to the RTS roots.

  16. #796
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, it is low tech for the most part, but it was still reliable and not prone to misfires.
    Probably because, again, it was low-tech? As in, steam engines, as opposed to complex machines with circuit boards, electricity, etc?

    Uh Gazlowe is a character owned by Blizzard, so you can't do anything officially to the character without Blizzard's permission. Who do you think published Heroes of the Storm and Reforged? Blizzard approved both of those games, and both of those games feature Gazlowe as a Tinker. Further, Blizzard also had to approve Gazlowe having Tinker abilities in WoW for Island Expeditions.

    Do you think some random person is doing this under Blizzard's nose or something?
    I, again, will point out to all the inconsistencies between WC3:Reforged and the main canon lore that is the World of Warcraft game.

    And, as @Triceron pointed out: all WC3:R does is to basically make official the idea that "engineer = tinker" since Gazlowe is still just referred to as "engineer" despite its model upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. We've been over this countless times. Mana Burn was removed from the game because of balance concerns. Other mana draining spells like Drain mana, and Classic Wyvern Sting got similar treatment. As consolation, Demon Hunters got a PvP ability with Mana in the title (don't feel like looking it up).
    So having the word "mana" in the title is enough to be "sufficiently similar"?

    2. No.
    So why does the WC3 ability has to go as-is from WC3 to WoW... and for other abilities you accept "indirect translations"? It sounds to me that you're having a case of "double-standards" here.

    Like I said I'm using the original iterations of the spells to show that when these abilities FIRST enter WoW they're closer translations to the original WC3 base.
    And the point here is that you're using "the way things used to be" as if they mattered anything, but when "the way things used to be" argument you used against you, you're quick to say "Things aren't like that anymore so the way things used to be doesn't matter anymore".
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  17. #797
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Probably because, again, it was low-tech? As in, steam engines, as opposed to complex machines with circuit boards, electricity, etc?
    Well the Iron Horde also had Dreadnaughts, the Grimrail Train, and the Iron Reaver. So it wasn't entirely crude.


    I, again, will point out to all the inconsistencies between WC3:Reforged and the main canon lore that is the World of Warcraft game.

    And, as @Triceron pointed out: all WC3:R does is to basically make official the idea that "engineer = tinker" since Gazlowe is still just referred to as "engineer" despite its model upgrade.
    As I've said many times; All Tinkers are engineers. Not all engineers are Tinkers. Gazlowe being labeled an engineer doesn't suddenly not also make him a Tinker.


    So having the word "mana" in the title is enough to be "sufficiently similar"?
    Feel free to look up the ability in their PvP talent tree. It's obvious that that is not the case.


    So why does the WC3 ability has to go as-is from WC3 to WoW... and for other abilities you accept "indirect translations"? It sounds to me that you're having a case of "double-standards" here.
    Indirect translations tend to be reserved for abilities that would cause significant balance issues. Passive Evasion for example would be such an ability, which is why it was made active for Rogues.

    Pocket Factory doesn't strike me as having a significant balancing problem, so I'd be surprised if it was a direct translation.

    And the point here is that you're using "the way things used to be" as if they mattered anything, but when "the way things used to be" argument you used against you, you're quick to say "Things aren't like that anymore so the way things used to be doesn't matter anymore".
    The only point here is that you're taking two entirely different arguments out of context.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then where is the Clawpack and Robo-goblin form in the engineering profession?
    Clawpack is too whimsical, same as pocketfactory. Both aren't in the game at all, and likely never will be

    Robo Goblin is the Sky Golem mount which is already used as Gazlowes Shredder.


    Here's the deal, when you purposely override functional differences simply because the words are synonymous with each other, you're not being honest. Thus, it's really not worth having a discussion with you.
    Thats because you have nothing to counter, no evidence to support your idea that Tinkers are a unique identity from Engineers in WoW. Lore is not semantics. Blackfuse is an Engineer, and no where is he called a Tinker. What is your argument against this? That its semantics and he is a Tinker because you say so?

    I'd call that dishonest and ignorant.

    I'll even point out how much if a fallacy it is to say all Tinkers are Engineers but not all Engineers are Tinkers. This is supposed to show thar Tinkers are different from Engineers right?

    All Sunwalkers are Paladins, but not all Paladins are Sunwalkers. They are still the same class because Sunwalker is just another name for Paladins

    Tinkers are treated as another name for Engineers in WoW lore.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-07-30 at 07:09 AM.

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which is fine. Engineer is often used as a title.



    Then where is the Clawpack and Robo-goblin form in the engineering profession?



    Semantics.



    Oh look, more semantics.



    And even more semantics.


    Here's the deal, when you purposely override functional differences simply because the words are synonymous with each other, you're not being honest. Thus, it's really not worth having a discussion with you.

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    Blizzard already said that they used Necromancer concepts to create the DK. Them saying that no new class fits an expansion revolving around death and having Necromancers and Kel'thuzad seems like a pretty obvious fit. However, if you choose not to believe it, that's your business.



    Yes, they kept the story the same as WC3. That doesn't change the fact that as a Warcraft game, it is considered canon.

    Maybe this will help you out.



    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kanrethad_Ebonlocke

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    Yes, it is low tech for the most part, but it was still reliable and not prone to misfires.



    Uh Gazlowe is a character owned by Blizzard, so you can't do anything officially to the character without Blizzard's permission. Who do you think published Heroes of the Storm and Reforged? Blizzard approved both of those games, and both of those games feature Gazlowe as a Tinker. Further, Blizzard also had to approve Gazlowe having Tinker abilities in WoW for Island Expeditions.

    Do you think some random person is doing this under Blizzard's nose or something?
    Gimme a link backing up your claim about Blizzard because I feel like you are misreading what was said like you did with that other article.

    It's been said that only SOME things in WC3 were canon. The rest of it was retconned for WoW which is why they were initially rewrite the campaign so it better fit in with the canon lore. As we all know, they changed their mind on that leaving large portions of WC3 non-canon.

    Oh yes ONE warlock learning something means ALL of them learned it that way. /s

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Tinkers are treated as another name for Engineers in WoW lore.
    Currently, it's the case. Comes the Tinker (or similar name) and it's not anymore true.

    Personally I look forward to more Engineering goodies in game, more than the Tinker class but it's just me.

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