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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Personally, im pleased they kept DH to 2 specs. Im in the camp that does not believe a range or healing spec would make any sense at all thematically, and considering many have a pretty negative opinion concerning the....simplicity....of havoc, i doubt they could have made a second melee spec that differentiated itself enough.

    But i dont entirely disagree with your sentiment, and would HATE to see something as potentially interesting as a Tinker or Necromancer introduced just to appease a vocal minority, without well fleshed out and unique concepts.
    I think they could have pulled off a ranged or healing spec pretty well when the specs are taught to them from the Tome of Fel Secrets. Seems silly that there would only be 2 pages in the book.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    After 40 pages i feel like it clear most of people dont hate Tinker class-concept , but rather dislike tinker-fans as they tend to burst in any thread about possible future class and cry all loud that ONLY Tinker has a rights to be next class implemented in future expansion.
    That is a terrible generalization. There is excitement around it, so it is natural that it generates buzz and is brought up when discussing new classes. Just as High elf popped up on all sort of new race threads for years. Is there anything else you would like to forbid people from bringing up when sharing their opinion? The problem here is that then an argument ensues and people don't know when to quit.
    I get that you find one particular fan is very steadfast in his beliefs. I ask that you don't generalize every Tinker fan. Each of us is only responsible for our own words.
    It would also help if people didn't take things personally as well. It's not like you NEED to agree with others. The problem we have here is a bunch of people on both sides unable to walk away from what is a difference of opinion. All this remorse is honestly unnecessary.
    Leaving an argument doesn't mean you lost it. I think a lot of people don't understand that.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-07-31 at 01:30 AM.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That is a terrible generalization. There is excitement around it, so it is natural that it generates buzz and is brought up when discussing new classes. Just as High elf popped up on all sort of new race threads for years. Is there anything else you would like to forbid people from bringing up when sharing their opinion?
    I get that you find one particular fan is very steadfast in his beliefs. I ask that you don't generalize every Tinker fan. Each of us is only responsible for our own words.
    You say not to generalize, and yet make statements like "There is excitement around it, so it is natural that it generates buzz". I have seen ZERO excitement or buzz around the tinker - its a handful of fans spamming any thread that mentions classes with the same asinine ramblings and derailing any meaningful discussions. Basically, the same couple of people come charging into the room screaming and shouting everyone down, forcing their fan fiction down everyones throats until they either get banned, or everyone else gives up and leaves the room.

    And then a few days later the exact same scenario plays out, and as you can see from the comments in here, some people have had enough of it.

  4. #844
    cause everyone is an armchair developer that only has rose tinted glasses for their own creation and can't or won't take any criticism from anyone else when flaws get called out.
    i'm not saying that a tinkerer class is a straight up nope, but most of the times when any form of discussion shows up about class design for non existing classes. the vast majority of arguments for how the class would actually work or integrate consists of carbon copying other class mechanics. basically turning it into a druid 2.0 with shaman totems and a hunter pet. this isn't to say there aren't any good idea's out there. it's that most "tinkerer fans" just regurgitate whatever amazing insight has been shouted loudest in the last thread.

    we get it, you want a tinkerer class. stop trying to make every "what kind of classes could be added to the game" or even at times "how could X class/spec be fixed" thread into a tinkerer thread.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Short View Post
    cause everyone is an armchair developer that only has rose tinted glasses for their own creation and can't or won't take any criticism from anyone else when flaws get called out.
    i'm not saying that a tinkerer class is a straight up nope, but most of the times when any form of discussion shows up about class design for non existing classes. the vast majority of arguments for how the class would actually work or integrate consists of carbon copying other class mechanics. basically turning it into a druid 2.0 with shaman totems and a hunter pet. this isn't to say there aren't any good idea's out there. it's that most "tinkerer fans" just regurgitate whatever amazing insight has been shouted loudest in the last thread.

    we get it, you want a tinkerer class. stop trying to make every "what kind of classes could be added to the game" or even at times "how could X class/spec be fixed" thread into a tinkerer thread.
    The problem with any future class is that it's ultimately bound to the niche that Blizzard has created for itself through rigid system designs and a 'Bring the Player' balance approach.

    Everything has to fit their Spec-centric mold. After seeing Demon Hunters, I can only imagine what they'd do for any other class.

    I actually wish WoW could be more like Heroes of the Storm, where every character feels unique and fresh and has very unique mechanics in play.

  6. #846
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You say not to generalize, and yet make statements like "There is excitement around it, so it is natural that it generates buzz". I have seen ZERO excitement or buzz around the tinker - its a handful of fans spamming any thread that mentions classes with the same asinine ramblings and derailing any meaningful discussions. Basically, the same couple of people come charging into the room screaming and shouting everyone down, forcing their fan fiction down everyones throats until they either get banned, or everyone else gives up and leaves the room.

    And then a few days later the exact same scenario plays out, and as you can see from the comments in here, some people have had enough of it.
    Ok, at this point i am gonna do as i preach and say we disagree on this. There is ample evidence for what i said from polls here on this same website to reddit pages to youtube videos with over 300k views with an overwhelming rate of likes to dislike, but you know... if you want to deny that, that is you opinion, and you can have it. Even if i disagree with it.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Personally, im pleased they kept DH to 2 specs. Im in the camp that does not believe a range or healing spec would make any sense at all thematically, and considering many have a pretty negative opinion concerning the....simplicity....of havoc, i doubt they could have made a second melee spec that differentiated itself enough.
    Eh, I believe it was a missed opportunity for Blizzard to think a little outside the box. I mean, they put one demon hunter wielding a scythe, so I imagine they could've gone with something similar to the third spec. Healer? No, it doesn't fit the thematic of the class' concept, in my opinion, but I think they could've squeezed in a spellcaster spec, considering some demon hunters were.

    However, Blizzard decided to make a lore that the fel in the demon hunters' bodies interfere with spellcasting, for no apparent reason...
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-07-31 at 03:22 AM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  8. #848
    Mechagon and all around it was the best place in time to introduce a Tinker class.

    Now that all the buzz about gnomes and the hated introduction of mechangnomes is gone, it no longer makes sense to add them, ever.

    So let's start collectively getting over it.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    Mechagon and all around it was the best place in time to introduce a Tinker class.

    Now that all the buzz about gnomes and the hated introduction of mechangnomes is gone, it no longer makes sense to add them, ever.

    So let's start collectively getting over it.
    I wouldn't say there's no sense to add them.

    There's still plenty of potential to introduce a new class. We still haven't visited Undermine, and that could be a prime time to tie in a Tinker class.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Ok, at this point i am gonna do as i preach and say we disagree on this. There is ample evidence for what i said from polls here on this same website to reddit pages to youtube videos with over 300k views with an overwhelming rate of likes to dislike, but you know... if you want to deny that, that is you opinion, and you can have it. Even if i disagree with it.
    You talking about the video with the clickbait title?

    The New Tinker Class Is Already In The Game! Revealing The Clues That Lead Us To The Tinker In 9.0

    Do you think its at all interesting that they have just under 300,000 subscribers, and 300,000 views on the video, but only 9k likes? See this is EXACTLY what im talking about - its cherry picking "data" that fits your narrative, without looking at the bigger picture. For example, the overwhelming majority of their videos have an almost identical like/dislike ratio, regardless of the content. They also have a VERY similar number of likes overall.

    Its almost like the same individuals watch each of their videos - the same individuals hit like, the same individuals hit dislike.....its ALMOST like the content of their videos really doesnt matter because it is EXTREMELY vanilla, bland, and intentionally avoids any controversy at all.

    Its almost like clickbait titles bring in views.....

    If you think a poll with 100 participants on some tiny, and i do mean TINY fan site FORUM is an acceptable sample......well it just further proves my point i guess. But it continues to ignore the the point being raised - that multiple people here have had enough of the same few people just shouting everyone down and putting their fingers in their ears screaming "LALALALAL EVERYONE LOVES TINKERS YOU ARE ALL WRONG LALALALALALA"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    Mechagon and all around it was the best place in time to introduce a Tinker class.

    Now that all the buzz about gnomes and the hated introduction of mechangnomes is gone, it no longer makes sense to add them, ever.

    So let's start collectively getting over it.
    This has been raised countless times - BfA had the absolute PERFECT opportunity to add the tinker in, and it wasnt added - from memory it wasnt even spoken about at all.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You talking about the video with the clickbait title?

    The New Tinker Class Is Already In The Game! Revealing The Clues That Lead Us To The Tinker In 9.0

    Do you think its at all interesting that they have just under 300,000 subscribers, and 300,000 views on the video, but only 9k likes? See this is EXACTLY what im talking about - its cherry picking "data" that fits your narrative, without looking at the bigger picture. For example, the overwhelming majority of their videos have an almost identical like/dislike ratio, regardless of the content. They also have a VERY similar number of likes overall.

    Its almost like the same individuals watch each of their videos - the same individuals hit like, the same individuals hit dislike.....its ALMOST like the content of their videos really doesnt matter because it is EXTREMELY vanilla, bland, and intentionally avoids any controversy at all.

    Its almost like clickbait titles bring in views.....

    If you think a poll with 100 participants on some tiny, and i do mean TINY fan site FORUM is an acceptable sample......well it just further proves my point i guess. But it continues to ignore the the point being raised - that multiple people here have had enough of the same few people just shouting everyone down and putting their fingers in their ears screaming "LALALALAL EVERYONE LOVES TINKERS YOU ARE ALL WRONG LALALALALALA"..

    - - - Updated - - -



    This has been raised countless times - BfA had the absolute PERFECT opportunity to add the tinker in, and it wasnt added - from memory it wasnt even spoken about at all.
    Sigh... yes, 100 people is tiny, if you want to use the tiniest sample, but it's also the most voted.
    So, what is your point? Is 100 people the "few" posters that keep bringing it up constantly? Cause we both know it wasn't what you implied.
    I don't consider that a few, especially as you point out that mmo champ is only a tiny portion of the WoW population and tbh that poll wasnt even serious.

    Honestly, i don't need to convince you of anything because you reserve the right to determine what "a few" and "popular" are. That is your opinion.
    I am excited for it, the people i know are all excited for it in-game and i see people excited here, on reddit, on the official forums and on youtube. It's not an official census like you would like, but it is the best we have cause a census will never exist. For me, that is enough to call it popular.
    On that note, so is bard, necromancer and dark ranger for the same reasons. They are the most talked about.

    No matter what you determine, i see excitement. If you choose to ignore it, it's your deal. If you want to debate the definitions and pretend it's only a few hardcore posters, well, i couldn't disagree more. You don't get to deny other people their excitement just cause you are not excited by it.

    100 is more than a few forum posters. At least we should be able to agree on that, if theres any reason to be had. Popularity is a more subjective concept and it's not possible to clearly determine.
    If you say it's the same people on all sites, well you gotta prove that, cause i'm not gonna believe it at face value.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-07-31 at 05:16 AM.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorzor View Post
    That being said, it would have to be done right. One slip up and the fickle mob, aka the community, would have a fit. Monks fitted MoP because of the Pandaren culture, and Demon Hunters fitted Legion because it came time to fight fire with fire. Depending on what happens after Shadowlands, that could be the time to introduce a new class.

    But only time will tell. And HE is watching from beyond the veil. Damaged, but rebuilding.
    I actually think shadowland will be the perfect time. I mean it's all shadow and control and whatever, what better to build big ol machines that can't be mind controlled and aren't afraid of dark powers to end the powers that be?

    Plus it'll be the first time the "Mechs" be anything more than a toy. Throwing bombs and little gadgets sounds super fun and honestly wouldn't really need that many new mechanics to pull off.

    Mech suits would be like druid's different forms, and bombs/grenades would your regular spell casts or time delayed instant casts.

  13. #853
    people dont hate tinkers

    people hate teriz

    lol

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Sigh... yes, 100 people is tiny, if you want to use the tiniest sample, but it's also the most voted.
    So, what is your point? Is 100 people the "few" posters that keep bringing it up constantly? Cause we both know it wasn't what you implied.
    I don't consider that a few, especially as you point out that mmo champ is only a tiny portion of the WoW population and tbh that poll wasnt even serious.

    Honestly, i don't need to convince you of anything because you reserve the right to determine what "a few" and "popular" are. That is your opinion.
    I am excited for it, the people i know are all excited for it in-game and i see people excited here, on reddit, on the official forums and on youtube. It's not an official census like you would like, but it is the best we have cause a census will never exist. For me, that is enough to call it popular.
    On that note, so is bard, necromancer and dark ranger for the same reasons. They are the most talked about.

    No matter what you determine, i see excitement. If you choose to ignore it, it's your deal. If you want to debate the definitions and pretend it's only a few hardcore posters, well, i couldn't disagree more. You don't get to deny other people their excitement just cause you are not excited by it.

    100 is more than a few forum posters. At least we should be able to agree on that, if theres any reason to be had. Popularity is a more subjective concept and it's not possible to clearly determine.
    If you say it's the same people on all sites, well you gotta prove that, cause i'm not gonna believe it at face value.
    Clickbait title on video? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    Similar Like / Dislike count on most of their videos? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    100 PARTICIPANTS? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    Few being commonly accepted as 2 or 3, 4 at absolute most? Intentionally misconstrued
    I never said "only a few people like the idea of a Tinker" and yet the majority of your post is spent proving this wrong - STRAWMAN.

    What i said, very clearly, was that people are fed up with the same FEW (2 or 3 since you have trouble with that) people dominating the conversation, shouting down all opposition, being extremely disingenuous, cherry picking data, and telling us they have an entire cake when they only have a few crumbs spread over multiple decades of Blizzard releases, often on obscure fansites.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    people dont hate tinkers

    people hate teriz

    lol
    Although i wouldnt go so far as just outright name/shame one person, its certainly a common theme i see across multiple threads, from multiple different users. My opinion is that it is not only that one user, there is a few of them, some less vocal than others, who essentially spew the same narrative. The frustrating thing about certain members of this group is they produce these very impressive looking concepts, but if you did a small amount of digging, you would discover that their FIRST concept is VASTLY different to their more recent one, and the differences can be found copy/pasted from a completely different users ideas put forward in another thread. Something they still to this day refuse to acknowledge, even though when they copied it over, it even included the typos from the source. So 'their' fancy looking concept is mostly not even their own.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by op3l View Post
    Throwing bombs and little gadgets sounds super fun and honestly wouldn't really need that many new mechanics to pull off.
    .
    You mean Engineering?
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-07-31 at 05:42 AM.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Every hero in WC3 was a hero with a skill, what's your point? Also based on a hero's skill with engineering, they can reach a point where they don't need to craft anything, they can use technology to simply produce.
    And again it's a skill, skill we have as profession. Even though it's basically useless it's still a skill, skill we get from trainer, level up and that's it. Hero class is just better at that skill, so you can't look it as a class...

  16. #856
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Because it's stupid.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    That is a terrible generalization. There is excitement around it, so it is natural that it generates buzz and is brought up when discussing new classes. Just as High elf popped up on all sort of new race threads for years. Is there anything else you would like to forbid people from bringing up when sharing their opinion? The problem here is that then an argument ensues and people don't know when to quit.
    I get that you find one particular fan is very steadfast in his beliefs. I ask that you don't generalize every Tinker fan. Each of us is only responsible for our own words.
    It would also help if people didn't take things personally as well. It's not like you NEED to agree with others. The problem we have here is a bunch of people on both sides unable to walk away from what is a difference of opinion. All this remorse is honestly unnecessary.
    Leaving an argument doesn't mean you lost it. I think a lot of people don't understand that.
    The same 4-5 people spamming the same Tinker nonsense and being responsible for 90% of the posts in the thread does not = buzz.

  18. #858
    That exactly a thing i was talking about, even after he was banned , he just logged 2nd account and prolonged debate ...... then "people love tinker" "It has more than 300.000 views"
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    You don't get to deny other people their excitement just cause you are not excited by it.
    Sorry but if you had fun in saying that other class-concept are shit and only your own tinker-headcannon-concept is perfect, its strange meaning of "FUN"

    Its like "You don't get to deny other people their excitement", but then you come and DENY other people fun .... so you are hypocrite?
    I want these classes in new x-pac Necromancer,RuneMaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Dragonsworn,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Clickbait title on video? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    Similar Like / Dislike count on most of their videos? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    100 PARTICIPANTS? doesnt fit narrative - IGNORED
    Few being commonly accepted as 2 or 3, 4 at absolute most? Intentionally misconstrued
    I never said "only a few people like the idea of a Tinker" and yet the majority of your post is spent proving this wrong - STRAWMAN.

    What i said, very clearly, was that people are fed up with the same FEW (2 or 3 since you have trouble with that) people dominating the conversation, shouting down all opposition, being extremely disingenuous, cherry picking data, and telling us they have an entire cake when they only have a few crumbs spread over multiple decades of Blizzard releases, often on obscure fansites.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Although i wouldnt go so far as just outright name/shame one person, its certainly a common theme i see across multiple threads, from multiple different users. My opinion is that it is not only that one user, there is a few of them, some less vocal than others, who essentially spew the same narrative. The frustrating thing about
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I have seen ZERO excitement or buzz around the tinker - its a handful of fans spamming
    Then why do you try to misrepresent that there is no excitement for the class?

    How many people do you need for excitement to happen? One.
    What is needed for buzz to happen? An atmosphere of excitement and activity.
    Even if it's 2-3 people as you say. They have an atmosphere of excitement. But, even you have accepted that there's at least 100 people that want a Tinker class on the most recent poll here on mmo champ. Are 100 people an atmosphere of excitement? Yes, i would say they are. If, you disagree, it's your deal. If you think a 300k video isn't excitement and activity, it's your deal. I am not gonna argue with your interpretations. There is no point to it.

    Dude, i don't care about your forum feuds. Keep them to yourself. Your misrepresentation is offensive. That might be why people get argumentative with you. This is over btw. There is no point in carrying this on. You are clearly on the war path and i am not interested. So, watch here a Tinker fan not bothering to engage in pointless arguments. You believe what you want dude. It doesn't change what i feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    That exactly a thing i was talking about, even after he was banned , he just logged 2nd account and prolonged debate ...... then "people love tinker" "It has more than 300.000 views"


    Sorry but if you had fun in saying that other class-concept are shit and only your own tinker-headcannon-concept is perfect, its strange meaning of "FUN"

    Its like "You don't get to deny other people their excitement", but then you come and DENY other people fun .... so you are hypocrite?
    I don't deny anyone their fun and i did no such thing. That is false. You are using one poster that is a Tinker fan and are projecting the same behavior on everyone else that is also a fan. That is a total strawman.
    I LIKE other class concepts, but just like Tinker, they all have hurdles. Tinker has the engineering problem, Necromancer has the unholy problem, Dark ranger has the hunter problem, Bard has the class trinity problem and Dragonsworn has the problem that it needs 5 specs to be fully realised. They are all fun concepts that can be very good. I am denying neither one just cause there is one i like more than the other. Stop the strawmaning man, you can't shove every Tinker fan in the same convenient bag cause you have a feud with one.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-07-31 at 04:29 PM.

  20. #860
    To be completely honest, I don't "hate" the idea of a tech class, or even dislike it. To the idea itself, I'm rather lukewarm. If implemented, I'd be likely to try it.

    Unless it's gnome/goblin restricted, at which point I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, but I digress.

    My problem with a tech class being implemented is its concept in the lore. In the lore of Warcraft, there hasn't been shown to exist any sort of practical difference between a character titled "engineer" and one titled "tinker". The only difference is that this is a name given to gnomes, goblins and dwarves, with maybe a human and a night elf, but the jury's still out on that.

    I'll reiterate to certain people if they're reading this that I'm speaking strictly about lore, not gameplay or game mechanics. That said, the problem, for me, is that implementing a tech class would be akin to adding a class called "sorcerer" with fire/frost/arcane specs, that has the same source of power and teachings as the mage class... but has different spells. Because a tech class would be creating and using bombs, rockets, mechs, discombobulators, personal shields, speed boosters, guns, healing "guns", etc... all the stuff that a character known as "engineer" already does. Again, all in the lore.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-07-31 at 02:52 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

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