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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Demon Hunters were profoundly redundant because their design space was occupied by Warlocks and Rogues. Add to this the fact that Demon Hunters took an ability from an existing class in order to be viable.
    And also some of Monks' space.

    The Tinker won't have that problem. They won't take abilities from existing classes like Demon Hunters did, and they're not another agility-based melee class. They'll be ranged and use a theme that's largely absent within the current class lineup.
    Rogues' smoke bombs. Hunters' traps. Hunters' mechanical pets. Engineering toys and bombs. Hunters' guns. Gonbins' racial leap. There's plenty of stuff that they'll overlap with.

    And then there's the matter of niche. There are already a lot of pet specs - 2-3 Lock and 2-3 Hunter depending on whether the pet-less builds are available and viable plus 1 Mage and 1 DK gives 6-8 perma-pet specs, 4-6 of them being ranged. Then there's Elemental and Enhance Shamans and Shadow Priests with short duration pets - and Shamans are getting turret totems back on top of that. Thus, they probably shouldn't be a pet-spec, but there are also lots of non-pet ranged.

    Then there's how they do their DPS - single-target or AoE? There are plenty of specs for both. Burst or sustained - again, both are filled. DoTs vs direct damage - again, plenty of both. Turret vs mobile? Same problem. Blizzard already has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes now.

    Maybe they could heal, but we've got a shield healer, and HoT healers, and direct healers. We've got ranged only healers, and melee healers. Maybe they heal and do damage via turrets and golems? Ah, but we have pets and we have totems and statues for these already, so the 'Tinker' would stomp on pet DPS and on Mistweavers and Resto Shamans and also over the part fifteen years totems have always had a mixed reception and that won't change just because they all like Goblin totems, or run into melee and blow up in a burst of healing goo.

    There's not a lot of design space left to put a new class into, and players will be really pissed if its carved out of their favourite class the way introducing DHs chomped off a big chunk of Demo (and put paid to any chance of a Lock tank build).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Its the only class really that could fill every role in the game with ease.
    Druids already do. Paladins could simply by adding a spec that does ranged Holy damage (and there isn't a ranged holy DPS, so that's an open niche for a Paladin or Priest spec). Shamans used to be able to tank non-raid content, so there's precedent for them having a fourth role. That's three classes that do, did, or easily could fill all roles, and they are in the game right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefrog View Post
    With the class/race combos in game, I just don't see them opening up the Tinker class to anyone else other than goblin and gnome. I don't think I've seen any other race use anything other than a bomb and gun as far as tech goes.
    Dwarves make and use tanks, aeroplanes, and artillery, and of those only the planes might be borrowed from the Gnomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

    I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.
    They might be a decent representation of the population that's "members of MMO-C that answer polls". I think it's a bit less likely that they represent "members of MMO-C", and I very much doubt they're representative of WoW players as a whole.

  2. #202
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not really. That would imply that all users on MMO-Champion voted on that poll, which is not the case. The majority probably did not even see that thread, thus that data is not valid.
    That isn't how statistics works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    M.Sc in Economics here. Statistically speaking, you only need around 30 observations for the CLT to kick in (Central Limit Theorem). As soon as you hit 30+ observations, you can safely assume a Normal Distribution and all statistical rules & regulations apply to the sample size in question. The moment you reach 100 observations+, you're pretty close to reality. At 1,000 observations + , your sample is, for all intents and purposes, assuming an un-biased, random choice of observations, a carbon copy of reality.

    I haven't looked how many people voted in the links you're responding to, but if they're in the 100+ mark they are quite a decent representation of the population. That is, assuming the MMO-C population is a fair & unbiased sample.
    Thank you. And yeah, most of those polls are well over the 100 person mark.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That isn't how statistics works.

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    Thank you. And yeah, most of those polls are well over the 100 person mark.
    You know there are over 10.000 members on MMO-Champion, right? And that there might have been some alts voting on that poll.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  4. #204
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naeblis495 View Post
    Because the druid become the animal , he isn't wearing an animal suit . Even without shifting into an animal form , the druid basic body can still do lots of things with his magic.

    The tinker hide in a mech suit to protect his laughably weak main body. Just look at the dazar alor cinematic , mekatorque almost died from a balista bolt falling next to him, when jaina, a mage, tanked a direct hit without any damage.

    Without their mech suit , tinker are NOTHING .
    Which is an irrelevant point, because we're simply talking about mechanics here. A Guardian Druid can't tank a raid outside of Bear form. A Druid can't perform competitive DPS outside of Moonkin or Feral form.

    Looking at simple game mechanics, a Tinker's default state would be a pilot form, much like the Druid caster form. The Tinker should have some abilities in this form, however their main mode of fighting would be in their mech form, just like the Druid's animal forms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You know there are over 10.000 members on MMO-Champion, right? And that there might have been some alts voting on that poll.
    Look up Sample Size please.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which is an irrelevant point, because we're simply talking about mechanics here. A Guardian Druid can't tank a raid outside of Bear form. A Druid can't perform competitive DPS outside of Moonkin or Feral form.

    Looking at simple game mechanics, a Tinker's default state would be a pilot form, much like the Druid caster form. The Tinker should have some abilities in this form, however their main mode of fighting would be in their mech form, just like the Druid's animal forms.

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    Look up Sample Size please.
    Look up what alts are, please.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  6. #206
    I would assume because "engineering" is supposed to represent tinkers. Either you have a bunch of overlap between the class and the profession, or people who took the profession to get cool gadgets and devices are suddenly gonna find any new cool engineering/tech/gadget related stuff going to tinkers instead.

  7. #207
    Speculating on future classes was fun at first, but since the Tinker class advocates became annoyingly stubborn and dismissive of any other fan-class theory, they just got everyone fed up of them and their ideas.

  8. #208
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Look up what alts are, please.
    That's an assumption. In one poll, the Tinker got about 400+ more votes than the Necromancer. In another poll the Tinker got over 100+ more votes than any other class option. Alts cannot account for that.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    They look at is as to goofy while the game has been that way since the very beginning. They'd rather want more edgy classes as apparently demon hunters didn't bring enough edgyness to the table.
    If demon hunters didn't bring enough edge in not sure how you can make a class anymore edgy.

    Demon hunters are as edgy as my chem concert in a Gillette factory

  10. #210
    People are just bored of this topic every day. Let is rest for a bit.

  11. #211
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Rogues' smoke bombs. Hunters' traps. Hunters' mechanical pets. Engineering toys and bombs. Hunters' guns. Gonbins' racial leap. There's plenty of stuff that they'll overlap with.
    Except Tinkers don't use smoke bombs, traps, animal looking mechanicals, engineering toys and bombs, or Goblin's rocket boost.

    Saying that all guns belong to the Hunter class is nonsense. If anything, the fact that the Tinker class could use guns is another reason they should be brought into the game.

    And then there's the matter of niche. There are already a lot of pet specs - 2-3 Lock and 2-3 Hunter depending on whether the pet-less builds are available and viable plus 1 Mage and 1 DK gives 6-8 perma-pet specs, 4-6 of them being ranged. Then there's Elemental and Enhance Shamans and Shadow Priests with short duration pets - and Shamans are getting turret totems back on top of that. Thus, they probably shouldn't be a pet-spec, but there are also lots of non-pet ranged.
    Tinkers would not be a pet class. The two most likely Tinker abilities that would summon robots are Turrets and Pocket Factory. Pocket Factory is a machine that the Tinker places at a targeted area and it pumps out mechanicals for its duration. Turrets are simply machines that shoot at enemy targets. Neither one of those are pets.

    Then there's how they do their DPS - single-target or AoE? There are plenty of specs for both. Burst or sustained - again, both are filled. DoTs vs direct damage - again, plenty of both. Turret vs mobile? Same problem. Blizzard already has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes now.
    I imagine that that would be up to Blizzard to decide. Considering that you have explosives, lasers, flame throwers, timed charges, robotic helpers, etc. It could go either way, or perhaps even a completely different way that we're not considering. Your opinion that Blizzard has trouble making useful distinctions between specs and classes is exactly that.

    Maybe they could heal, but we've got a shield healer, and HoT healers, and direct healers. We've got ranged only healers, and melee healers. Maybe they heal and do damage via turrets and golems? Ah, but we have pets and we have totems and statues for these already, so the 'Tinker' would stomp on pet DPS and on Mistweavers and Resto Shamans and also over the part fifteen years totems have always had a mixed reception and that won't change just because they all like Goblin totems, or run into melee and blow up in a burst of healing goo.
    Again, that's completely up to Blizzard to hash out. In my Tinker concept, the healing spec used Pocket Factory to deploy healing bots, turrets to construct damage reduction fields and shoot healing at friendly targets, and the Tinker could spray allies with healing sprays, or shoot bio grenades for AoE healing at a distance. For Tinker based healing, I've heard of everything from taking concepts from Overwatch (like Ana's biogrenades, or Baptiste's Healing fields), to concepts utilizing the Goblin Alchemist (which is what I did in my concept), to a combination of both. The point is that there's plenty of design space open for a science-based healer that uses technology and medicine.

    It should be noted that a Tinker healer has a good chance of being the first WoW healing spec that isn't using mana to heal, since it doesn't use magic.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's an assumption. In one poll, the Tinker got about 400+ more votes than the Necromancer. In another poll the Tinker got over 100+ more votes than any other class option. Alts cannot account for that.
    That wasn't an official poll, it was a poll made on a fan-forum with 10k active users, of which only a fraction even participated. No one cares about that, and certainly not Blizzard. So stop mentioning those numbers (some of which might come from alts) as if they mattered.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #213
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csguba View Post
    People are just bored of this topic every day. Let is rest for a bit.
    If people are bored of this topic, they don't need to participate. They can just skip over this ONE thread and read the hundreds of other active threads on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    That wasn't an official poll, it was a poll made on a fan-forum with 10k active users, of which only a fraction even participated. No one cares about that, and certainly not Blizzard. So stop mentioning those numbers (some of which might come from alts) as if they mattered.
    Again, look up the definition of sample size when it comes to polling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryonas View Post
    Because Engineering.
    /thread
    Because the Tinker hero from WC3 and HotS.

    Also because classes and professions are two entirely different things.

  14. #214
    Because Engineering.
    /thread

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But they used to. It was such a terrible ability that they replaced it with a revised Serpent Sting.

    If Blizzard wants to do Dark Rangers, just give MM Hunters back Black Arrow and give them Wailing Arrow from HotS.

    Problem solved.
    But they don't have it anymore, so its not an argument. And I mean, Dark Rangers are also a special look that the character has, being an red-eyed undead. Like, you in theory also could have turned demonology warlocks into a melee spec easily (and lets be honest, it would have been more intuitive with the metamorphosis playstyle) and called it the Demon Hunters, but a Demon Hunter is also a certain aesthetic. Especially since with Dark Rangers, Blizz actually developed the concept quite alot with Sylvanas recent new abilities and banshee form and it would be a new ranged class utilizing ranged weapons with unique abilities which doesn't takes anything existing classes have right now. Which is what you require from a new class. So the idea would be quite as viable as Tinker, especially since it is build on 1) more popular races and 2) a more popular character.

    Not to forget that while Shadowlands was one opportunity for Dark Rangers, more could easily come. The entire death concept is kind of more popular with playerbases than gnomes and goblins. I would also argue that Blizz missed the opportunity to include a Tinker with Warlords of Draenor, which started as a tech-focussed expansion in which the core feature of the main antagonist was their use of advanced Goblin Technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That tends to happens when your race lacks a class that closely mirrors it's racial lore.

    For example, here's a visual representation of the top three Night Elf Classes;



    Which also happen to be the most popular Night Elf characters.

    What's the most popular/well known Goblin and Gnome characters?




    Something we can't play as.....
    You know that one of three classes of the characters on the artwork was not playable until rather recently and the other one still isn't? With Gnomes, they have Warlocks and Mages playable, with Wilfred Fizzlebang, Nibby the Allmighty and especially Millhouse Manastorm probably being more well known and iconic gnomish characters than Mekkatorque, who was basically non existent until a small cameo at the broken shore cinematic and had no storyline ingame up until BFA, if we don't include the shortlived Gnomeragan event. Back when I started playing the game, Gnomes in the actual game where commonly depicted as Mages or Warlocks, yet they still weren't popular. When I think about other Gnome Characters I noticed more during my 13 years of playing the game up until BFA I would say Kelsey Steelspark, who is a rogue, Narain Soothfancy who seems to be a mage or Linken, a Warrior.

    Mekkatorque may be currently the most well known gnome character, but this is a recent phenomena. Again, up until Legion he was basically just an NPC in Ironforge standing around randomly and doing nothing inside the entire story and even in Legion, he just had a short appereance in a cinematic centered around Varian Wrynn. It wasn't until BFA where he became more prominent. So your argument on Gnomes falls fully apart. Mekkatorque isn't in the game long enough to explain the lack of Gnome characters with them being unable to ride a Mech just like him. Especially since outside of Gnomeragan, Gnomes riding Mechs wasn't that much of a thing. It was more of a prominent Goblin thing, who though also had plenty of representation as pirates, putting them into a similar position as Night Elves in that one of two of their iconic classes are playable.

    So here, I delivered it to you. An actual reasoning why especially with Gnomes, the lack of a Tinker class is not likely to be responsible for their lack of popularity while you failed to deliver a single argument outside of your personal opinion for your case. Not to forget that you constantly argue with polls to bully and harass fans of other class concepts which I consider the lowest of low levels while you willfully ignore the poll which shows that the lack of a thematically fitting class is the least reason why people don't play Gnomes, proving yourself not to be a good faith participant of this forum and making you look like a child who feels entitled to a toy he made up in his mind.

  16. #216
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiza View Post
    But they don't have it anymore, so its not an argument. And I mean, Dark Rangers are also a special look that the character has, being an red-eyed undead. Like, you in theory also could have turned demonology warlocks into a melee spec easily (and lets be honest, it would have been more intuitive with the metamorphosis playstyle) and called it the Demon Hunters, but a Demon Hunter is also a certain aesthetic. Especially since with Dark Rangers, Blizz actually developed the concept quite alot with Sylvanas recent new abilities and banshee form and it would be a new ranged class utilizing ranged weapons with unique abilities which doesn't takes anything existing classes have right now. Which is what you require from a new class. So the idea would be quite as viable as Tinker, especially since it is build on 1) more popular races and 2) a more popular character.
    But why would Blizzard create an entirely new class based around Black Arrow when they can simply put it back in the Hunter class?

    Not to forget that while Shadowlands was one opportunity for Dark Rangers, more could easily come. The entire death concept is kind of more popular with playerbases than gnomes and goblins.

    Not according to this;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game


    You know that one of three classes of the characters on the artwork was not playable until rather recently and the other one still isn't?
    Which is irrelevant. The three most popular classes among Night Elf players are Druids, Hunters, and Demon Hunters. The most popular characters among Night Elf players are Malfurion (Druid), Tyrande (Hunter/Priest), and Illidan (Demon Hunter). Coincidence? I don't think so.

    With Gnomes, they have Warlocks and Mages playable, with Wilfred Fizzlebang, Nibby the Allmighty and especially Millhouse Manastorm probably being more well known and iconic gnomish characters than Mekkatorque, who was basically non existent until a small cameo at the broken shore cinematic and had no storyline ingame up until BFA, if we don't include the shortlived Gnomeragan event. Back when I started playing the game, Gnomes in the actual game where commonly depicted as Mages or Warlocks, yet they still weren't popular. When I think about other Gnome Characters I noticed more during my 13 years of playing the game up until BFA I would say Kelsey Steelspark, who is a rogue, Narain Soothfancy who seems to be a mage or Linken, a Warrior.

    Mekkatorque may be currently the most well known gnome character, but this is a recent phenomena. Again, up until Legion he was basically just an NPC in Ironforge standing around randomly and doing nothing inside the entire story and even in Legion, he just had a short appereance in a cinematic centered around Varian Wrynn. It wasn't until BFA where he became more prominent. So your argument on Gnomes falls fully apart. Mekkatorque isn't in the game long enough to explain the lack of Gnome characters with them being unable to ride a Mech just like him. Especially since outside of Gnomeragan, Gnomes riding Mechs wasn't that much of a thing. It was more of a prominent Goblin thing, who though also had plenty of representation as pirates, putting them into a similar position as Night Elves in that one of two of their iconic classes are playable.
    You're comparing the Gnome racial leader who just played a big part in the current expansion to three villains who we've barely seen since WotLk and you're saying that it makes my argument fall apart? Hilarious.

    So here, I delivered it to you. An actual reasoning why especially with Gnomes, the lack of a Tinker class is not likely to be responsible for their lack of popularity while you failed to deliver a single argument outside of your personal opinion for your case. Not to forget that you constantly argue with polls to bully and harass fans of other class concepts which I consider the lowest of low levels while you willfully ignore the poll which shows that the lack of a thematically fitting class is the least reason why people don't play Gnomes, proving yourself not to be a good faith participant of this forum and making you look like a child who feels entitled to a toy he made up in his mind.
    Do me a favor, list the last time we saw those three characters you mentioned, and then compare them to how many times we've seen Mekkatorque. Keep in mind, a Gnome player runs into Mekkatorque during their opening set of quests, and they see him riding a mech in a portion of it. The Goblins also experience other characters riding mechs in their starting zone as well, not to mention both races being surrounded by technology in their starting zones.

    But that doesn't matter right? A Gnome player is more likely to take their racial cues from three spell casters who we haven't encountered in almost a decade.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But why would Blizzard create an entirely new class based around Black Arrow when they can simply put it back in the Hunter class?
    But why would Blizzard create an entirely new class based around [insert random tinker-esque ability] when they can simply put it into engineering?

    Tinkers and the profession engineering is basically the same thing.

  18. #218
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindon View Post
    But why would Blizzard create an entirely new class based around [insert random tinker-esque ability] when they can simply put it into engineering?

    Tinkers and the profession engineering is basically the same thing.
    Um, because professions aren't designed to replace classes or do their job. Further, placing one or more class abilities within a profession would cause an imbalance among professions to the point that players would be forced to spec into said profession in order to be competitive.

    Hope that helps.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    I would assume because "engineering" is supposed to represent tinkers.
    Its like "Blacksmith can represent warriors".

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But why would Blizzard create an entirely new class based around Black Arrow when they can simply put it back in the Hunter class?
    Because the Dark Ranger is as much just a Hunter in concept as Tinkers are. Or as Death Knights are Warriors.


    Then googlesearch Sylvanas and afterwards Mekkatorque and look who gets more hits. Sylvanas is the more iconic character and the last three new classes have proven that classes based on iconic Characters sell better than whimsical classes based on niche characters. And what is it now? Do polls matter or do they not? Because whenever it is about bullying and harassing fans of other potential classes, they suddenly matter but when it is about deconstructing your fanfiction that not having Tinkers is what makes Gnomes unpopular, they suddenly don't matter. And can you explain to me why you expect others to give a fuck about your polls when you ignore polls which contradict arguments of yours?

    Which is irrelevant. The three most popular classes among Night Elf players are Druids, Hunters, and Demon Hunters. The most popular characters among Night Elf players are Malfurion (Druid), Tyrande (Hunter/Priest), and Illidan (Demon Hunter). Coincidence? I don't think so.
    I mean, Druids where always popular due to the whole Jack of all Trades thing and they are currently the best farm characters. Hunters where probably more due to Legolas, considering how much of a meme male Night elf Hunters named Legolas where during classic and bc. Tyrande is not a hunter but a Priestess of the Moon which is an entirely different WC3 concept and not playable. Demon Hunters were not playable up until Legion. But guess what, Night elves were always popular, despite most of their concepts not being playable for the longest time.

    You're comparing the Gnome racial leader who just played a big part in the current expansion to three villains who we've barely seen since WotLk and you're saying that it makes my argument fall apart? Hilarious.
    Because he only played a small part in the current expansion. Before that, he was basically non-existant in the game. This doesn't explain the Gnomes all time lack of popularity.

    Do me a favor, list the last time we saw those three characters you mentioned, and then compare them to how many times we've seen Mekkatorque. Keep in mind, a Gnome player runs into Mekkatorque during their opening set of quests, and they see him riding a mech in a portion of it. The Goblins also experience other characters riding mechs in their starting zone as well, not to mention both races being surrounded by technology in their starting zones.

    But that doesn't matter right? A Gnome player is more likely to take their racial cues from three spell casters who we haven't encountered in almost a decade.
    I mean, most of them we saw more often than Mekkatorque up until BFA. I mean, I get it. You don't get into mythic 0 dungeons and you are a BFA kid, but the game is kinda 15 years old and Mekkatorque wasn't a thing in the game up until last year. This doesn't explains their lack of popularity, with mages and warlocks also always being quite common Gnome classes. Not to forget that in the past they had a ridiculously op caster racial.

    But I'm asking you again, do polls matter or not? Either they matter and you have to admit that Gnomes not being able to play Tinkers is a niche reason for their lack of popularity and that gnome and goblin fans are overrepresented on these polls or they don't matter and you give everyone a pass to dump a literal pile of shit on your polls. What is it, boy?

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