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  1. #401
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    This is a blatant misrepresentation of the argument because "punching monsters in the face" is a meaningless arbitrary rule. You are not required to "punch monsters in the face" to be a priest. Or a paladin. Or a mage. Or a rogue. Etc, etc, etc.

    On top of that, "blacksmiths" and "herbalists" have not been shown to basically be a synonym to any class concept, fan-made or otherwise, in the lore.
    Uh, that's exactly what adventurers do. We have adventurers that use technology to punch monsters in the face, and two of them are racial leaders.

    Again, you don't see some sub-group of Blacksmiths, herbalists, or cooks who are adventurers "punching monsters in the face" do you?

    Also the Tinker isn't a fan-made concept, it is a Blizzard concept. Blizzard has also made it clearly something different than the profession.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, you don't see some sub-group of Blacksmiths, herbalists, or cooks who are adventurers "punching monsters in the face" do you?
    I see them any time i enter a dungeon with a group of players, i dont know what you want to prove with that sentence.
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  3. #403
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    It also needs to be pointed out that just because something is a synonym in the English language doesn't make it the same thing in the game.

    For example, Enchanter and Warlock are synonyms for Mage, but obviously in WoW they aren't the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I see them any time i enter a dungeon with a group of players, i dont know what you want to prove with that sentence.
    A Rogue who picks flowers on Sundays is still a Rogue. He isn't punching monsters in the face with herbalism, he's doing it with his Rogue skills.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It also needs to be pointed out that just because something is a synonym in the English language doesn't make it the same thing in the game.

    For example, Enchanter and Warlock are synonyms for Mage, but obviously in WoW they aren't the same thing.

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    A Rogue who picks flowers on Sundays is still a Rogue. He isn't punching monsters in the face with herbalism, he's doing it with his Rogue skills.
    So what exactly is the difference between an engineer and a tinker then? They both presumably use some kind of technological gadget to punch monsters in the face.
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  5. #405
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    So what exactly is the difference between an engineer and a tinker then? They both presumably use some kind of technological gadget to punch monsters in the face.
    The Tinker is Tony Stark/Iron Man, a character with super-human inventing abilities. Their devices put them on par with powerful physical fighters (Captain America) and magicians (Thor). The Engineer is a hobbyist, someone who picks up a book and makes trinkets and toys to sell to people to make some extra coin. Kind of like Bob Villa.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Tinker is Tony Stark/Iron Man, a character with super-human inventing abilities. Their devices put them on par with powerful physical fighters (Captain America) and magicians (Thor). The Engineer is a hobbyist, someone who picks up a book and makes trinkets and toys to sell to people to make some extra coin. Kind of like Bob Villa.
    Engineer is the Tony Stark of Warcraft. Tinker is Rocket Raccoon.

  7. #407
    Pandaren Monk cocomen2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    I really don't understand a community that hates variety so much. A technical based class with steampunk vibes is usually a staple in many fantasy games and its a clear missing component in WoW despite the myriad of technologies the world offers. Yet anytime someone suggests a desire for the class or even comes up with creative ways to implement it half the community it seems nearly has a stroke with the amount of rage they bring.
    I mean in reality it doesn't have to be called tinkerer, but i do think the game would benefit from a class that embodies a mechanical steam punk type vibe.
    Just read 1000+1 post from Teriz , i hope it would help.

    BTW Tinkers in wow is not like Tony Stark , they more like Scott Lang (small and comic relief).

    (But mad fans still think that Gnomes is PEAK of Evolution 300IQ+)
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2020-07-26 at 06:06 PM.
    Please, there a perfect example of hypocritical thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If Tinkers had anything to do with Hunters, but they don’t. Unlike Bards which are linked to Rogues.

  8. #408
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Aye, fuck, the game is non-canon then
    I never said that. Ever. The game's lore is canon. The game's mechanics and gameplay? Not canon. Again, you have a huge list of "gameplay things" that you'll have to accept as canon if you believe otherwise.

    Things happening in the game are canon.
    "Things happening in the game" is lore. The manner and the extent in which we interact with said "things happening" (i.e. gameplay) is not canon.

    Two examples:
    • Horde invading Kul'Tiras or Alliance invading Zandalar is a lore event. That's lore. As an Alliance player, when the Horde is invading, for example, Kul'Tiras, we get Genn Greymane's voice speaking directly into our minds. That is not lore, because nowhere in the lore has it been said that Genn has telepathic powers. That is gameplay.
    • The Arathi warfront is a love event. That's lore. Our characters killing Lady Liadrin in the warfront several times, over and over is just gameplay, and therefore not canon. Case in point: she is still alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, that's exactly what adventurers do.
    That's one of the things they may do. But it's not a requirement.

    We have adventurers that use technology to punch monsters in the face, and two of them are racial leaders.

    Again, you don't see some sub-group of Blacksmiths, herbalists, or cooks who are adventurers "punching monsters in the face" do you?
    I do see that some of those "adventurers that use technology to punch monsters in the face" are engineers.

    Also the Tinker isn't a fan-made concept, it is a Blizzard concept.
    It's a fan-made concept because the class does not exist in the game. And even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be like you envision it to be.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #409
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    I just sincerely hate with a passion everything related to gnomes and goblins. For the gnomes, it's their annoying little voices, their puntable abstract potato faces, their culture and the fact that they add an element of artistic plague that doesn't fit in a proper fantasy universe.

    As for the goblins, they're a little more tolerable although they made Orgrimmar an ugly place to live in. Of note, I felt like ratchet and booty bay were more in-tune with the fantasy-like style (although I do despise Gadgetzan) than their gnomish counterparts (Gnomeregan, really? What the hell is that!).

    Still, these two races makes wow feel like a joke rather than a genuine fantasy universe. Not going to lie, it's pretty hard to take the game seriously when an army of gnomes faces a foe like the Lich King.

    In that regard, a class that fits that fantasy would mean more gnomes and goblins for a whole expansion. This, I can't stomach. This is why I don't want tinkers.
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  10. #410
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Engineer is the Tony Stark of Warcraft. Tinker is Rocket Raccoon.
    That doesn’t make sense, because you can only become an engineer by being a warrior or mage first. Tony Stark is ONLY an inventor. The Tinker hero, Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are ONLY inventors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's one of the things they may do. But it's not a requirement.
    That’s literally the only thing adventurers do. That’s their entire purpose, which is why they’re heroes. They’re heroes because they can stop big baddies from destroying the world.


    I do see that some of those "adventurers that use technology to punch monsters in the face" are engineers.
    A different type of engineer than the profession variety.

    It's a fan-made concept because the class does not exist in the game. And even if it did, it certainly wouldn't be like you envision it to be.
    I envision the Tinker as a translation of the WC3 hero, just like all previous expansion classes have been.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How's that poll in the other thread working out?
    7k+ views with less than 200 votes and comments.

    High view count and low interaction says a lot. Yes, some of those views are some people just looking at it multiple times. If you be generous and take out half, thats still about 3.3k views of people not caring about anything thats on the poll. Tinker included.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That doesn’t make sense, because you can only become an engineer by being a warrior or mage first. Tony Stark is ONLY an inventor. The Tinker hero, Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are ONLY inventors.
    Tony Stark invented a broad range of inventions applicable to both combat and every-day utility. He wasn't just using them for the sake of combat.

    Rocket Raccoon on the other hand invents for the sole purpose of combat. He's a weapons expert. That's what a Tinker class would be.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    7k+ views with less than 200 votes and comments.

    High view count and low interaction says a lot. Yes, some of those views are some people just looking at it multiple times. If you be generous and take out half, thats still about 3.3k views of people not caring about anything thats on the poll. Tinker included.
    You are being ridiculous. It's a trolling thread to begin with. Most people are sick of these petty forum wars you guys insist on engaging in and don't want any part of it.
    Also, your point holds no water. It seems difficult to grasp but a new class doesn't need to appeal to all. Can we agree on that and stop the stubburness and spite wars? It's ok to like different things.

  14. #414
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Game is already bloated with classes, i don't think there is a room for more without a full revamp of most classes
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  15. #415
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That doesn’t make sense, because you can only become an engineer by being a warrior or mage first. Tony Stark is ONLY an inventor. The Tinker hero, Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are ONLY inventors.
    This is bullshit you're making up that has no basis in the lore.

    That’s literally the only thing adventurers do.
    And city guards. And bodyguards. And the military.

    A different type of engineer than the profession variety.
    Another bullshit you're making up that has no basis in lore.

    I envision the Tinker as a translation of the WC3 hero, just like all previous expansion classes have been.
    It doesn't change the fact that the tinker class does not exist in the World of Warcraft game, so anything you say about the class in WoW is nothing but fanon.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Don’t know but gnomes deserve their own expansion.
    Do you want the game to lose even more subscribers?

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Tinker is Tony Stark/Iron Man, a character with super-human inventing abilities. Their devices put them on par with powerful physical fighters (Captain America) and magicians (Thor). The Engineer is a hobbyist, someone who picks up a book and makes trinkets and toys to sell to people to make some extra coin. Kind of like Bob Villa.
    Engineers create mechs, portal devices, weapons of war, and a ton of other stuff.

    Also why do you constantly lump all tech abilities into tinkers and yet deny engineering stuff?

    Actual lore trumps gameplay which is why "real" Azeroth is much more massive than it is in game. Just because the gameplay for an engineer is different than an all tech skill tinker that you constantly create in your head doesn't mean that lorewise they are any different.

    Also Gazlowe has never been referenced as a Tinker in WoW so stop trying to use him as an example.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-07-26 at 08:35 PM.

  18. #418
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Tony Stark invented a broad range of inventions applicable to both combat and every-day utility. He wasn't just using them for the sake of combat.
    Yeah, wrong. Tony Stark initially built weapons for the military, then he built the Iron Man suit which was for all intents and purposes, the ultimate weapon. Later he worked towards using the Iron Man tech to protect the planet and from that view he began to build utility and other stuff.

    However, that all grew from inventing weapons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    This is bullshit you're making up that has no basis in the lore.
    You mean other than the fact that that's exactly how professions are structured in WoW? You can't just become an engineer, you need to be a class first. You can also dump the profession at any point and it won't effect your character. You believing that its anything more than that is simply your head canon.


    And city guards. And bodyguards. And the military.
    Those aren't adventurers though. It's like saying that cops and the army are the same as the Avengers.


    Another bullshit you're making up that has no basis in lore.
    Except for the fact that the Tinker hero was clearly lore-based, and his abilities are lore based, but none of those abilities exist in engineering. Also it's obvious that Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, and Gazlowe are utilizing technology far beyond what's available in the profession. So yes, there is basis for it in lore.

    It doesn't change the fact that the tinker class does not exist in the World of Warcraft game, so anything you say about the class in WoW is nothing but fanon.
    Forget the semantics. The question is this; Is there an class of adventurer that is utilizing nothing but technology? The answer is obviously yes, and the profession doesn't give you access to that, mainly because it wasn't meant to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Engineers create mechs, portal devices, weapons of war, and a ton of other stuff.
    Engineers don't create anything. They build devices from schematics and blueprints. Tinkers actually invent their devices.

    Also why do you constantly lump all tech abilities into tinkers and yet deny engineering stuff?
    Because there are no abilities within the engineering profession.

    Actual lore trumps gameplay which is why "real" Azeroth is much more massive than it is in game. Just because the gameplay for an engineer is different than an all tech skill tinker that you constantly create in your head doesn't mean that lorewise they are any different.
    Gameplay also trumps head canon. The game makes it pretty clear that there's a difference between what profession engineers can do, and what individuals like Mekkatorque can do. Further I didn't create anything in my head. The entire Tinker concept that I talk about comes from Blizzard.

    Also Gazlowe has never been referenced as a Tinker in WoW so stop trying to use him as an example.
    He's referenced as a Tinker in HotS, and he had those abilities in WoW. If he has Tinker abilities, then he's obviously a Tinker. WoW not smashing you over the head and calling him a Tinker doesn't change that.

  19. #419
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You mean other than the fact that that's exactly how professions are structured in WoW?
    And, once again, you return to your original fallacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're talking gameplay, and treating it as if it is lore. There has absolutely zero distinctions between the two in the lore.

    Those aren't adventurers though. It's like saying that cops and the army are the same as the Avengers.
    But they do "punch monsters in the face". And the military is comprised of mages, warriors, paladins, warlocks, etc... who just aren't too different from the player character.

    Except for the fact that the Tinker hero was clearly lore-based,
    So is the necromancer, the bard, and many other fan-made concepts around.

    and his abilities are lore based, but none of those abilities exist in engineering.
    It's not about abilities, Teriz. It's the concept.

    Also it's obvious that Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, and Gazlowe are utilizing technology far beyond what's available in the profession. So yes, there is basis for it in lore.
    Same as above. And also: when did Gazlowe use "technology far beyond what's available in the profession"?

    Forget the semantics.
    It's not semantics.

    The question is this; Is there an class of adventurer that is utilizing nothing but technology?
    The question is wholly irrelevant for class design, since many classes share themes.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #420
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And, once again, you return to your original fallacy:
    Do you have any lore from Blizzard that states that professions and classes are the same?

    But they do "punch monsters in the face". And the military is comprised of mages, warriors, paladins, warlocks, etc... who just aren't too different from the player character.
    You mean they're several levels weaker than the player character. The player character Mage and/or Paladin is supposedly quite a bit more powerful than a standard mage or Paladin. Remember, in Legion they were made the leaders of their classes.

    So is the necromancer, the bard, and many other fan-made concepts around.
    Except there are no known Necromancer or Bard heroes. There were some reputable Necromancers, but they're dead. There are quite a few known "Tinker" heroes in WoW though.


    It's not about abilities, Teriz. It's the concept.
    And the concept around those abilities are clearly not for selling in an auction house. Those abilities are designed to perform class roles.

    Same as above. And also: when did Gazlowe use "technology far beyond what's available in the profession"?
    During the Legion invasion when he defended Durator piloting a mech, and during the Island Expedition.

    It's not semantics.
    That's exactly what it is, and the fact that you can't answer the question I asked speaks volumes.

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