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  1. #21
    Once Arthas bit it, that was it. The only real "alliance"/human side villain dies in expac 2. Once that happened, it was a steamroll shit show. I guess Illidan counts as well...so once Illidan dies, that was it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    It's the only decent explanation I've heard for the Xal'atath subplot in BfA.
    I would so love for it to be the case

  3. #23
    I just don't really think blizzard can write good villains well and simply lucked into the scourge during wc3. A interesting villain needs to have some core you can emphasis with. Kel'thuzard simply wanted a form of magic to counteract the hordes shamanism. Arthas wanted to save his people. Illidan wanted to protect the world at any price.

    Each of them have motives that at least start off selfless even if they become perverted or mislead later on.

    Most wow villains now are some combination of insane, ancient evil. or going full cartoon villain for no real good or explicable reason. Add to that blizzards weird moralization of different races and cultures ( cant have morally gray or lawful evil forsaken now it seems since bfa) and your left with bland forgettable villains like old gods doing it for the lulz or random lunatic.

  4. #24
    How exactly do you propose a boss not "dying in one patch"? Dying multiple times?

    People have still criticized "wasting" the Lich King despite him being so prolific in the questing you darn near trip over him on your way back to the inn.

    Technically Kil'jaeden's relevance spanned 4 patches. One in BC, then the questline where the Exodar is invaded by Velen's son that KJ corrupted, then the patch cutscene --> end of the raid in tomb of sargeras, then posthumously learning more about him on Argus. He was far from wasted, and was the "personal villain" contrasting/complimenting Sargeras's "world-ending force of nature".

    People have also criticized both times we've had a villain not die when dethroned, but instead instigate the next expansion.

    And, obviously, https://wow.gamepedia.com/Merely_a_setback
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-07-26 at 05:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  5. #25
    Because these characters were written by people with a very specific plan for a story in mind, then years later some new Blizzard writer who has no investment in the story writes up some garbage to justify putting them in a raid encounter.

    Because of this alone, I think Kil'jaeden's death was shittier to me than even the end of the Legion and defeat of Sargeras. At least those things had buildup and a grand conclusion, Kil'jaeden died unceremoniously as a mid-expansion raid boss of one of the most forgettable raids in my recent memory. This is the guy who effectively created the Warcraft plot from WC3 onward, the character who was directly or indirectly behind every event that took place from then on, picked off by adventurers.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Because of this alone, I think Kil'jaeden's death was shittier to me than even the end of the Legion and defeat of Sargeras. At least those things had buildup and a grand conclusion, Kil'jaeden died unceremoniously as a mid-expansion raid boss of one of the most forgettable raids in my recent memory. This is the guy who effectively created the Warcraft plot from WC3 onward, the character who was directly or indirectly behind every event that took place from then on, picked off by adventurers.
    If you're going to complain about a leader of the burning legion being unceremoniously wasted point at Archimonde instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #27
    So they can move on to other stories and other challenges. Exact same reason they almost never have recurring villains in Superhero movies.
    When in doubt, simply ask yourself: "What would Garrosh do?"

    #wwgd

  8. #28
    We got the wonderful naga form model out of Azshara so i think it evened that out.

  9. #29
    The Patient BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    We killed off Archimonde in Warcraft 3 14-15 years ago, he was brought back with some bullshit expansion and then killed off just to remedy the mistake. He should have never brought back with that bullshit expansion. As for Kiljaedan, if you see the in game cinematics, he was just sick and tired of all the deception and background manipulation, he wanted to finish it once and for all and there was only 2 path before him, succeed or die. So we killed him since we could not let him succeed. Grommash, a piece of trash villain who should have been killed off but was kept alive for the bullshit expansion and died bullshit death. And Nzoth is not dead, what we killed was just his illusion.
    Moderators on this site are, to put it nicely, morons. They believe any opinion contrary to popular ones are either trolling or flaming or baiting. They can not comprehend the fact that there can be people who would utterly detest what they like or million others like. Well, it is their site and their "Authoretaeh" but they are morons nonetheless.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Kil’jaeden, the most influental villain in all of warcraft. Swept under the rug in one patch. He should have been the final boss, not argus

    Archimonde, appears out of nowhere and dies permanently

    Azshara, one of the most hyped villains in all of warcraft, had like 3 MINOR appearances ingame (Darkshore, WoT, and broken isles) before being swept under the rug

    Grommash, dies off screen

    Nzoth, hyped up since cata, dies in 1 patch

    Deathwing, a master manipulator, instead is just a big dragon that breathes fire

    Did kelthuzad even do anything outside of naxxramas? Literally the master of the scourge behind only the lich king

    It gets incredibly lame after a while. Why can’t we have villains that do amazing crazy stuff and not fail all the time? Prehaps stop making every character a mary sue. Azshara destroyed Aszuna with a snap of her fingers but can’t take on a human mage and a ranger?
    I don't get why people are saying you're wrong about KJ, Kj has been our enemy since WC3. He started it ALL, he started the invasion of dreanor, he sent the orcs to Azeroth, he made the lich king, he invaded azeroth with the legion twice, he conquered thousands of planets and he was a 2nd last tier boss. That's disgusting. Legion should of been his expansion, Argus should of been the 2nd last boss of the raid or a mythic only phase attached to a KJ final boss fight.

    Azshara once more, been around in warcraft lore forever, she's been named at some point in every expansion. We've been waiting years and years and finally we get her and we don't even kill her, and then after all that we help free her and let her loose again, then fuck? She should of also been her own expansion that led INTO n'zoth.

    Deathwing had his own expansion so he shouldn't be on here, it was a shit expansion but he had his own expansion and raid non the less.\

    WOD was just wasted lore, the iron horde had awesome potential and it honestly feels like last minute they pulled a game of thrones, "Everyone's guessing the ending already.....lets just change it last minute so they're wrong and avoid the expected"

    Kel'thuzad, anything in vanilla I don't hold a grudge against. It was tossed together, I mean MC was literally created the week WoW was being released, they just made raids and put them in I don't think they had any plan for any actual lore being involved.

    Blizzard just has a REALLY REALLY REALLY bad imagination.
    Last edited by dipzz; 2020-07-26 at 08:25 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    @OP this is why they deal with villains in one patch. Because if you don't, people like this guy get mad that we're fighting them again.
    You understand we've already fought them in their highly anticipated homes, right? Zones they completely missed the mark on.

    Nazjatar ended up being a pile of seaweed and Nyalotha, while looked great, was just a raid. Blizzard continues to underdeliver on shit they've had players speculating on for over a decade. At this point, they should have just killed the both of them off.

    Especially N'zoth. You don't just go "omg wow he's released now" and then store him in a fucking blade secretly to have us wait another fucking decade to hear from him again.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Kil’jaeden, the most influental villain in all of warcraft. Swept under the rug in one patch. He should have been the final boss, not argus

    Archimonde, appears out of nowhere and dies permanently

    Azshara, one of the most hyped villains in all of warcraft, had like 3 MINOR appearances ingame (Darkshore, WoT, and broken isles) before being swept under the rug

    Grommash, dies off screen

    Nzoth, hyped up since cata, dies in 1 patch

    Deathwing, a master manipulator, instead is just a big dragon that breathes fire

    Did kelthuzad even do anything outside of naxxramas? Literally the master of the scourge behind only the lich king

    It gets incredibly lame after a while. Why can’t we have villains that do amazing crazy stuff and not fail all the time? Prehaps stop making every character a mary sue. Azshara destroyed Aszuna with a snap of her fingers but can’t take on a human mage and a ranger?
    Because these villains are there to serve the purpose of raid bosses for you to fight. If there was a bigger vision, you'd have it a bit more like the SWP, where you only manage to temporarily halt them.

  13. #33
    Its weird cause blizzard often goes either full awesome or complete failure when it comes to stories and the way they tell their stories.

    Almost like there are two opposite currents in the lore/story/writer department, one doing some rather nice work and the other being rrrrreally awful.

    Even within a single expansion they have storylines, questlines and videos that are awesome - as well as some that are god awful.
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Its weird cause blizzard often goes either full awesome or complete failure when it comes to stories and the way they tell their stories.

    Almost like there are two opposite currents in the lore/story/writer department, one doing some rather nice work and the other being rrrrreally awful.

    Even within a single expansion they have storylines, questlines and videos that are awesome - as well as some that are god awful.
    problem is, the "big", overreaching story is the really bad one, while the somewhat decent stories are always the small quest lines which are mostly unconnected to the big story going on. For example, while the main story of cata was a big pile of shit, the forsaken/worgen questline in silverpine forest was amazing
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    N'zoth and Old Gods in general are trash since their retcon.
    Hold up.

    What retcon? When?
    DK faceroll omnomnom

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarrgoth View Post
    Hold up.

    What retcon? When?
    Character says something in game or is embellished in game. (Aka person without all knowledge makes a claim)
    Blizzard says that never take what the characters say in game as lore.
    Blizzard tells us what the old gods really are

    Players: ZOMG RETCONZZZZZZZZZ!

  17. #37
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarrgoth View Post
    Hold up.

    What retcon? When?
    They weren't "retconned," they were more or less given an explanation - creations of the Void Lords designed to infect planets and taint any World-Soul they might bear with the hopes of creating a Dark Titan. Before this explanation, we didn't really know what the Old Gods were; their histories and their maximum power levels mostly unknown and possibly the equal of Sargeras. Now we know exactly what they are and how powerful they are vs. the Titans (not very).
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Kel'thuzad, anything in vanilla I don't hold a grudge against. It was tossed together, I mean MC was literally created the week WoW was being released, they just made raids and put them in I don't think they had any plan for any actual lore being involved.
    .
    MC was created because their huge ambition set them back. Vanilla was supposed to have Karazhan as its first raid and Outland was also supposed to be included within the main game. It was said that Karazhan turned out to be so much harder to create than anticipated, so they quickly made MC just so that the game would have a raid.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarrgoth View Post
    Hold up.

    What retcon? When?
    If it's what I think he means, then it wasn't really a retcon, but added lore that diminished their importance due to hierarchy. Void Lords are the big bad and Old Gods only serve them.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They weren't "retconned," they were more or less given an explanation - creations of the Void Lords designed to infect planets and taint any World-Soul they might bear with the hopes of creating a Dark Titan. Before this explanation, we didn't really know what the Old Gods were; their histories and their maximum power levels mostly unknown and possibly the equal of Sargeras. Now we know exactly what they are and how powerful they are vs. the Titans (not very).
    Right. I thought I had missed out on something. It wouldn’t make sense that Old Gods had been equal to titans anyway, but I suppose the titans weren’t really explained in detail until chronicle 1 as well.

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