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  1. #101
    The real answer is that it's a relic of a bygone era that Blizz is afraid to touch because of the potential community outcry. I think they will change it at some point, maybe once the population falls off below certain point.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    RaidID lockouts are probably on par with server population issues when it comes to mythic raiding and how prohibitive they are, maybe even more. I can infer Blizz's argument when it comes to keeping the RaidID system for mythic only, I just don't agree with it at all. Almost all of it devolves into trying to regulate the behavior of an extreme minority, at the cost of the larger majority of people who wouldn't misuse/abuse such a system. It's quite the double-standard, where Blizz is forcing you to be social (which is fine), but also hamstringing you on the social aspect where to feasibly participate you have to convince players to pay for extra services for server/faction transfers while the small pool of players who don't have to pay may not be able to play with you (or even help your guild if they're nice) due to RaidID lockouts. This doesn't even go towards trialing players who may have several prospects or in a guild already but looking to transfer.

    I think as a start to making mythic raiding more accessible, the first step should be getting rid of RaidID lockouts in favor of loot lockouts. The only issue I'd see from a mainstream perspective would be extending/sharing mythic raid lockouts, allowing people to skip most of the mythic raid. Even if nothing is done to modify how lockouts work and Blizz was hardcore about wanting to keep CE achievements, they could make adjustments where you have an account-wide CE achievement that requires you to have killed every boss at least once on mythic (can even attach the mount to the achievement... like almost every other achievement). So even if you borrow a skip to the last boss, not only do you need to have the gear/skill to kill it, but also you'd still need to kill every boss leading up to it in order to get your CE achievement. Again, this would be if they don't even change how lockouts work, and there are many other options available within and without these restrictions to keep most players from cheesing a loot-lock system over a RaidID lockout system.
    Yeah, that works. Additionally, in today's world of boosts, it really does not matter if a lockout is shared around. They also could do more with guild achievements, which kinda became a half forgotten feature at this point.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    FWIW, I think in five to ten years megaservers will be a necessity because dead/dying realms will have gone beyond the point of redemption -- we're not there yet, however, and it seems doubtful Blizzard is going to have an epiphany any time soon.ey.
    Uh, what? Many realms started dying during WotLK, and were completely barren by the end of Cata. My original server Talnivarr EU had multiple Wowprogress pages of guilds who cleared everything back in TBC. This number was reduced dramatically over the duration of WotLK, took another giant blow with Cata trying to make 10man and 25man raids the same (this was the single worst blow the raiding community ever had to suffer through), and the server was unable to support raiding guilds by the end of Cata.

    Transferred to Frostmane late Cata, which by this point was one of the biggest and most healthy EU Alliance servers for raiding. The server was healthy throughout MoP, but the same pattern that happened on my original server was obviously happening here aswell. By the end of WoD, the number of raiding guilds still going was down to a handful again. Although the server was not quite dead yet at that point, the ship was sinking, and I left to join a guild on another server. Throughout Legion, Frostmane basically killed itself by becoming a large majority Swedish server, which drove all of the remaining non-Swedes away, and now, the it's a barren wasteland just like Talnivarr.

    You can't sit here and claim that we're not past the point of redemption, when the vast majority of the entire European WoW population is spread over a couple of megaservers like Draenor, Twisting Nether, Kazzak and Tarren Mill, with A LOT of realms being abandoned, dead wastelands like Talnivarr, and having been that way for many many years. I'm sure it's the same way for the other regions aswell.


    Sure, it's easier for guilds to survive on a dying server now than it was 8 years ago, because today, transferring servers to join guilds is the norm, while back in Cata and MoP that was basically unheard of outside of the top 100 guilds, but the damage has already been done.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2020-08-02 at 03:17 PM.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I mean, you'd basically bury the last bastion where the concept of a "guild" actually matters.

    Also, it while it would lift barriers to enter a Mythic guild, it would make them far more unstable because people might just fuck off the moment they're stuck on a certain boss, because they don't have to transfer 3+ characters to another server.

    While it would be an obvious QoL change, i'd rather see them reinforce the idea of guilds actually mattering again (in general, not just Mythic guilds), because a lot of the "Meta" related issues might resolve itself to some extent once people start to play with people they want to play rather than just strangers because it's more convenient.

    That aside, people transferring 3+ characters when they join a Mythic guild is basically worth of someone subbing for 4-5 months.
    They've already put in cross-realm communities, it seems they are planning to make guilds act the same way at some point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khallid View Post
    I personally wouldn't mind cross-realm mythic raids being open, but I don't think that would change anything about realm transfers. You would need guilds to be cross-realm for that to happen, not just the raid.

    And as a mythic raider, I can tell you there's no way in hell we're inviting people that don't want to join our guild to do mythic progress. So having the option of cross-realm mythic raid doesn't actually matter without the guilds also being cross-realm.
    Cross-realm communities already exist as an in-game function. Guilds can easily go cross realm.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  5. #105
    Brewmaster Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    people said the same thing about LFD, yet here we are with the Game Director 10 years later admitting that the friction of the "pre LFD" were actually good for the game.
    And he said that in a world where he didn't have to deal with the fallout/drawbacks of omitting said system for 10 years. Ease of access was what WoW was built on, even in vanilla, World of Warcraft was built to be the easier MMO, and that let it thrive. I can sure tell you I absolutely don't miss siting in Dal/Shat/SW/Org and spamming /2 with "Need 1 heals and 1 DPS for (Dungeon) then g2g!". Even the other mainline MMo's we have now usually incorporated these systems, because while we all love to remember the 1-2 friends we made by spamming trade no one wants to remember the hours/days wasted trying to set up said groups. Lastly I will point out that you still can make friends in LFD/LFR because I have managed that quite a few times over the years now myself.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    And he said that in a world where he didn't have to deal with the fallout/drawbacks of omitting said system for 10 years.
    That's a stretch.

    Especially in the light of the fact that a few months earlier Mike Morhaime said a similiar thing, that one of the mistakes they made was to favour accessability over tools that rewarded people for playing with the same people (=socializing).
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    I can sure tell you I absolutely don't miss siting in Dal/Shat/SW/Org and spamming /2 with "Need 1 heals and 1 DPS for (Dungeon) then g2g!".
    Preferable to being dropped into a with four random people that have vastly different expectations towards the game and skill levels.

    Remember how much of a shitshow it was during Wotlk when you had new players grouped up with people that just want to blast through a heroic <15 min?
    Fun times.

    Or even Cata heroic, where some people simply were not good enough to actually complete heroics because you were just randomnly dropped with some people, then had to hope (if the people who couldn't measure up left or got kicked) the new guy actually was competent?

    Like, they could've used the group finder that we have now, which is by the way the way to go nowadays, because the rewards from automated queueing systems such as LFD or LFR aren't worth a lot anymore in the grand scheme of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Even the other mainline MMo's we have now usually incorporated these systems
    Other mainstreams MMO's copied WoW, that doesn't automatically mean it was a success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Lastly I will point out that you still can make friends in LFD/LFR because I have managed that quite a few times over the years now myself.
    I sure do love anecdotal evidence.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's a stretch.

    Especially in the light of the fact that a few months earlier Mike Morhaime said a similiar thing, that one of the mistakes they made was to favour accessability over tools that rewarded people for playing with the same people (=socializing).

    Preferable to being dropped into a with four random people that have vastly different expectations towards the game and skill levels.

    Remember how much of a shitshow it was during Wotlk when you had new players grouped up with people that just want to blast through a heroic <15 min?
    Fun times.

    Or even Cata heroic, where some people simply were not good enough to actually complete heroics because you were just randomnly dropped with some people, then had to hope (if the people who couldn't measure up left or got kicked) the new guy actually was competent?

    Like, they could've used the group finder that we have now, which is by the way the way to go nowadays, because the rewards from automated queueing systems such as LFD or LFR aren't worth a lot anymore in the grand scheme of things.

    Other mainstreams MMO's copied WoW, that doesn't automatically mean it was a success.

    I sure do love anecdotal evidence.
    All of wrath starter dungeons were face roll though baring occulus and halls of lightning pre nerf...

    I would argue that was the greatest flaw of the lfd system. It was originally built on content that was designed so you couldn't fail. If it launched during tbc I doubt it would of been met with the same attitude it was in wrath.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    All of wrath starter dungeons were face roll though baring occulus and halls of lightning pre nerf...
    Difficulty wasn't the problem in Wotlk, the problem was that even hardcore raiders were incentized to do LFD dungeons, who obviously wanted to speed through these dungeons as fast as possible.

    Once ended up on my fresh 80 tank alongside a 25man geared Resto Shaman who basically wanted to do the whole dungeon with ever stopping.
    Not that i did mind that, but someone who was just getting familiar with the endgame and the tanking role would have seriously struggled in that situation.

    That's just the problem, you can't put a veteran who wants to complete a piece of content as fast as possible next to a new player and expect it will work without any issues.
    Or not even a new player, just someone who is looking for a "chill run".

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Difficulty wasn't the problem in Wotlk, the problem was that even hardcore raiders were incentized to do LFD dungeons, who obviously wanted to speed through these dungeons as fast as possible.

    Once ended up on my fresh 80 tank alongside a 25man geared Resto Shaman who basically wanted to do the whole dungeon with ever stopping.
    Not that i did mind that, but someone who was just getting familiar with the endgame and the tanking role would have seriously struggled in that situation.

    That's just the problem, you can't put a veteran who wants to complete a piece of content as fast as possible next to a new player and expect it will work without any issues.
    Or not even a new player, just someone who is looking for a "chill run".
    That is the trap with keeping all content relevant. If I need to do X dungeons every week to fill out my Valor Badge cap then I want to get it over with as soon as possible.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    That is the trap with keeping all content relevant. If I need to do X dungeons every week to fill out my Valor Badge cap then I want to get it over with as soon as possible.
    I do agree getting rid of tiers of content has been a disaster. I would argue three modes of difficulty is a bit to much as well. Normal/heroic kind of feels like they should be merged.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    I do agree getting rid of tiers of content has been a disaster. I would argue three modes of difficulty is a bit to much as well. Normal/heroic kind of feels like they should be merged.
    I don't know how many people there are for who Normal is good but Heroic is to hard, Blizzard likely has an idea of those numbers and so long as there are enough for who this is true I have little problem with keeping Normal around. But if that group doesn't exist then sure, get rid of it.

    Whenever you wonder if something isn't to easy you should think of the average scrub player, and then realise half of them are worse.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    That is the trap with keeping all content relevant. If I need to do X dungeons every week to fill out my Valor Badge cap then I want to get it over with as soon as possible.
    Wouldn't be such a huge problem when you don't add automated queueing systems into the mix.

    Want to do it fast? Add something like *quickrun* *rush* to the title, people who don't want that won't join.
    Want to take your time? Add something like *chillrun* to it, people who don't want that won't join.

    Back in TBC, people also did some fast runs through Karazhan after 2.4, you just didn't invite people who didn't have the gear or lacked the experience.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Wouldn't be such a huge problem when you don't add automated queueing systems into the mix.

    Want to do it fast? Add something like *quickrun* *rush* to the title, people who don't want that won't join.
    Want to take your time? Add something like *chillrun* to it, people who don't want that won't join.

    Back in TBC, people also did some fast runs through Karazhan after 2.4, you just didn't invite people who didn't have the gear or lacked the experience.
    I'll take the occasional run with someone who isn't ready to rush vs sitting in a city for 30min spamming LFHealer.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #114
    Legendary! Zka's Avatar
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    Why PVE isn't cross faction yet?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Why PVE isn't cross faction yet?
    Because 'Faction conflict' is a lifeline for the devs whenever they run out of story idea's. Which they have done in the last 4 expansions.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I'll take the occasional run with someone who isn't ready to rush vs sitting in a city for 30min spamming LFHealer.
    By that logic, you're currently limited yourself to Heroic dungeons.

    I am right in that assumption?
    I said it above: Groupfinder would have been the better solution than LFD.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    By that logic, you're currently limited yourself to Heroic dungeons.

    I am right in that assumption?
    I said it above: Groupfinder would have been the better solution than LFD.
    I Havn't played since the end of Uldir, but back then I did a weekly +15 with my guild in a pretty fixed group so there was no need to fish around.

    Mythic+ actually has some difficulty and benefits from having players form group rather then automating it.
    This does not apply to Heroic and Normal dungeons.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    You can't sit here and claim that we're not past the point of redemption, when the vast majority of the entire European WoW population is spread over a couple of megaservers like Draenor, Twisting Nether, Kazzak and Tarren Mill, with A LOT of realms being abandoned, dead wastelands like Talnivarr, and having been that way for many many years. I'm sure it's the same way for the other regions aswell.
    I've said this repeatedly throughout this thread: Realm populations on these dead/dying servers increases dramatically at the beginning of expansions. Players who return only for the beginning of an expansion represent a large portion of WoW's potential playerbase. Blizzard does not want to negatively impact the experience of returning players because even if they only stay subscribed for two to three months after the launch of an expansion that's a metric fuckton of potential income they're throwing away. I'm 100% positive Blizzard understands the negative experience of being on a dead/dying realm and it sure would be nice if the game could simply go back to the consistent popularity levels it had in WotLK/Cata before this was an issue. But since that isn't likely to happen any time soon, Blizzard has chosen to use stop-gap measures like Connected Realms to put off the inevitability of megaservers as long as possible.

    Now, if you want to be a cynical douchebag and insist that Blizzard does this not because of the importance of returning players but rather because they hate their playerbase and want nothing more than to rub their nipples while twirling their cartoonishly evil mustaches and telling you to pony up a server transfer or quit the fucking game you'll surely find plenty of support for this line of thinking on this forum. Personally, I just don't find this take to be particularly compelling because it ignores the crux of the unique problem WoW has when compared to other MMOs and paints Blizzard in a light that they're reluctant to implement an extremely obvious solution out of pure spite for the people who pay to play their video game.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I don't know how many people there are for who Normal is good but Heroic is to hard, Blizzard likely has an idea of those numbers and so long as there are enough for who this is true I have little problem with keeping Normal around. But if that group doesn't exist then sure, get rid of it.

    Whenever you wonder if something isn't to easy you should think of the average scrub player, and then realise half of them are worse.
    I find that unpleasant to think about and so choose not to. In my mind I know z'noth lfr is monster that destroys groups but I prefer to imagine that they just troll each other.

  20. #120
    Bigger problem is actually ID lockout.

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