So why isn't mythic raiding cross realm yet?

[Relapses]

Speaking personally, why you seem like a "white knight" is comments like you said above... players being this crazy set of wishy washy people. I think most people want to be on a well populated server like stormrage or illidan, performance limitations allowing. Since Stormrage and Illidan do fine, that's what most people want, it's not crazy.

There is no easy way to retain realm identity and server heritage while simultaneously providing every player on every server an experience like that of a higher-populated realm. Such a solution simply doesn't exist. Making Mythic raiding cross-realm at the start effectively erases the last vestige of server identity left in the game. Blizzard does not want to do this. What Blizzard does want to do is provide stop-gap measures to help dead/dying realms from dying off entirely. That's why they're actively connecting realms. As I've said repeatedly, I personally don't know if this is the best possible solution (I'd prefer giving players a free server transfer every 6-12 months) but I can at least view the issue from a lens that isn't so drenched in pointless cynicism that it barely registers as a valid opinion.

[Krakan]

WoW is not a "lobby game" and incredibly diluted, pointlessly cynical takes like this do little to address the actual problems the game has.

I mean it is... almost all loot from world mobs has been removed over the years. Players phase in and out fighting toothless mobs for daily quest... wows world content is truely awful.

It's a lobby game for the most part. I don't mean that in a negative way just as a observation.

[Relapses]

I mean it is... almost all loot from world mobs has been removed over the years. Players phase in and out fighting toothless mobs for daily quest... wows world content is truely awful.

It's a lobby game for the most part. I don't mean that in a negative way just as a observation.

There are plenty of people who play this game for reasons which have nothing to do with a lobby.

[Krakan]

There are plenty of people who play this game for reasons which have nothing to do with a lobby.

Doing what?

Leveling? I can't really picture there being much to do in wow that isn't an instance. The games just moved away from it beyond dailies.

[enigma77]

Honestly, the whole Crossrealm bullshit has really made the game worse. Multiboxer druids farming your herbs on your server all day long, then selling it on another server. Destruction of the server based pug scene/community...

It's just not worth it.

If anything they should gradually get rid of it. If you just patch it out in one fell swoop people won't like it, but if you deal it a death by a thousand cuts we can get back to a game with intact server communities/economies and a sense of identity again.

Let's start by making Mythic crossrealm at no point, not even after 100 guilds have cleared it on both sides. Next, make heroic/normal server-only, then eventually m+. I guess you can let Arenas/pvp remain crossrealm. Then get rid of crossrealm in the world.

Game #fixed.

[Gorsameth]

There is no easy way to retain realm identity and server heritage while simultaneously providing every player on every server an experience like that of a higher-populated realm. Such a solution simply doesn't exist. Making Mythic raiding cross-realm at the start effectively erases the last vestige of server identity left in the game. Blizzard does not want to do this. What Blizzard does want to do is provide stop-gap measures to help dead/dying realms from dying off entirely. That's why they're actively connecting realms. As I've said repeatedly, I personally don't know if this is the best possible solution (I'd prefer giving players a free server transfer every 6-12 months) but I can at least view the issue from a lens that isn't so drenched in pointless cynicism that it barely registers as a valid opinion.

is server identity actually important? I mean sure people care, some people always care but to the big majority and the 'average' player, does it matter?

[Volatilis]

realm transfers still make blizzard a lot of money.

[Relapses]

is server identity actually important? I mean sure people care, some people always care but to the big majority and the 'average' player, does it matter?

I went over this in my earlier posts in this thread but the long and short of it is that WoW has a unique problem where a lot of its playerbase has been around forever but also doesn't play consistently. For players who stay consistently subscribed for an entire expansion, realm identity is meaningless. But if you're a cyclical player who has been playing on a server since 2004 and come back for the beginning of every expansion, it would be a very bad experience to find out that your realm (and all of its history) had suddenly been erased. FWIW, I think that such a decision will need to be made at some point in the future but for the time being Blizzard seems to want to put off this inevitability as long as possible, which is why we see them connecting dead/dying realms right now.

[Gorsameth]

I went over this in my earlier posts in this thread but the long and short of it is that WoW has a unique problem where a lot of its playerbase has been around forever but also doesn't play consistently. For players who stay consistently subscribed for an entire expansion, realm identity is meaningless. But if you're a cyclical player who has been playing on a server since 2004 and come back for the beginning of every expansion, it would be a very bad experience to find out that your realm (and all of its history) had suddenly been erased. FWIW, I think that such a decision will need to be made at some point in the future but for the time being Blizzard seems to want to put off this inevitability as long as possible, which is why we see them connecting dead/dying realms right now.

Except there is no server history for those players because they were not around when that history formed.
A player that keeps playing remember when X and Y guild were competing for kills or the drama involving Z ect ect but the players that bounce in and out don't have that to nearly the same extend.

Obviously none of know what would actually happen but when one of those players returns and sees that servers are now more or less gone in favour of a 'megaserver' I honestly expect them to shrug and get on with playing as they did before.

[goldlock]

I went over this in my earlier posts in this thread but the long and short of it is that WoW has a unique problem where a lot of its playerbase has been around forever but also doesn't play consistently. For players who stay consistently subscribed for an entire expansion, realm identity is meaningless. But if you're a cyclical player who has been playing on a server since 2004 and come back for the beginning of every expansion, it would be a very bad experience to find out that your realm (and all of its history) had suddenly been erased. FWIW, I think that such a decision will need to be made at some point in the future but for the time being Blizzard seems to want to put off this inevitability as long as possible, which is why we see them connecting dead/dying realms right now.

I think a lot of this stems from nostalgia. I remember older versions of wow when the community was actually pretty tight knit and servers felt like small towns. It wasn't rare to know most people around your same progression level or to add people to friends lists as time goes on. I know ive been part of a guild for ten years that always meets up every new patch to spend a week or three to clear out the glory of the raider achievement ( I still raid mythic but most simply do heroic now) before going dormant again.

That said... the world of warcraft those players knew is dead. It is a lot like watching a forest being leveled and a city taking its place. Sure it has its uses but those magical wood we grew up with simply don't exist for new or returning players.

World mobs with extreme exceptions no long drop anything useful for crafting beyond cloth. There isn't much of a reason to do anything beyond a few laughably easy daily quests then queue for some form of content. The world of world of warcraft is dead. I don't know how you bring it back if I am being honest.

[Relapses]

Obviously none of know what would actually happen but when one of those players returns and sees that servers are now more or less gone in favour of a 'megaserver' I honestly expect them to shrug and get on with playing as they did before.

You're speaking on behalf of millions of returning players when you say that they'll collectively shrug it off.

Moreover, Blizzard has had the technology to implement megaservers for the better part of a decade. There has to be a reason they haven't yet and the importance of realm identity for returning players is the only reasonable thing I can think. (Sorry, the cynical take that "Blizzard just wants its players to be miserable." isn't particularly compelling to me.)

- - - Updated - - -

World mobs with extreme exceptions no long drop anything useful for crafting beyond cloth. There isn't much of a reason to do anything beyond a few laughably easy daily quests then queue for some form of content. The world of world of warcraft is dead. I don't know how you bring it back if I am being honest.

You have to understand that not all players see the game in the same jaded cynical light. The bigger issue is that longterm players like yourself often succumb to this way of thinking where returning players could care less since they intend to do little more than buy the expansion, level a few toons over the course of a couple months then unsubscribe until the next expansion. This of course gets into the murky water of what constitutes a "real" WoW player and which aspects of the community Blizzard should listen to -- I don't think we'll ever get to a point where all players will be happy with every decision Blizzard makes. But that said I also don't see tearing down the fundamental functionality of realms "because it doesn't matter" is the right choice either, even if it is an inevitability.

[Echeyakee]

I don't really mind realm lock on mythic raids. Yeah, it sucks for low pop realms, but everything sucks there, and AB should be more proactive with merges. What I really don't understand is why the fuck do we still have archaic lockouts in mythic. Yeah, pugs suck and they will leave more, care less and we will have shit where people only come for the bosses they need. But I think that's better than what most guilds are facing.

Majority of heroic guilds wetting their feet in mythic simply don't have the members (or good enough members) to fill a 20 man raid, so they pug on reset day. And then have to cancel all other raids that week, because nobody will join a mythic raid in progress. That kills morale faster than wiping on the same boss the whole week. So many guilds get stuck in recruitment hell when attempting to go for mythic, resulting in them either giving up on it or even disbanding. The system is just dumb.

[exochaft]

I don't really mind realm lock on mythic raids. Yeah, it sucks for low pop realms, but everything sucks there, and AB should be more proactive with merges. What I really don't understand is why the fuck do we still have archaic lockouts in mythic. Yeah, pugs suck and they will leave more, care less and we will have shit where people only come for the bosses they need. But I think that's better than what most guilds are facing.

Majority of heroic guilds wetting their feet in mythic simply don't have the members (or good enough members) to fill a 20 man raid, so they pug on reset day. And then have to cancel all other raids that week, because nobody will join a mythic raid in progress. That kills morale faster than wiping on the same boss the whole week. So many guilds get stuck in recruitment hell when attempting to go for mythic, resulting in them either giving up on it or even disbanding. The system is just dumb.

RaidID lockouts are probably on par with server population issues when it comes to mythic raiding and how prohibitive they are, maybe even more. I can infer Blizz's argument when it comes to keeping the RaidID system for mythic only, I just don't agree with it at all. Almost all of it devolves into trying to regulate the behavior of an extreme minority, at the cost of the larger majority of people who wouldn't misuse/abuse such a system. It's quite the double-standard, where Blizz is forcing you to be social (which is fine), but also hamstringing you on the social aspect where to feasibly participate you have to convince players to pay for extra services for server/faction transfers while the small pool of players who don't have to pay may not be able to play with you (or even help your guild if they're nice) due to RaidID lockouts. This doesn't even go towards trialing players who may have several prospects or in a guild already but looking to transfer.

I think as a start to making mythic raiding more accessible, the first step should be getting rid of RaidID lockouts in favor of loot lockouts. The only issue I'd see from a mainstream perspective would be extending/sharing mythic raid lockouts, allowing people to skip most of the mythic raid. Even if nothing is done to modify how lockouts work and Blizz was hardcore about wanting to keep CE achievements, they could make adjustments where you have an account-wide CE achievement that requires you to have killed every boss at least once on mythic (can even attach the mount to the achievement... like almost every other achievement). So even if you borrow a skip to the last boss, not only do you need to have the gear/skill to kill it, but also you'd still need to kill every boss leading up to it in order to get your CE achievement. Again, this would be if they don't even change how lockouts work, and there are many other options available within and without these restrictions to keep most players from cheesing a loot-lock system over a RaidID lockout system.

[Azerate]

The real answer is that it's a relic of a bygone era that Blizz is afraid to touch because of the potential community outcry. I think they will change it at some point, maybe once the population falls off below certain point.

[Echeyakee]

RaidID lockouts are probably on par with server population issues when it comes to mythic raiding and how prohibitive they are, maybe even more. I can infer Blizz's argument when it comes to keeping the RaidID system for mythic only, I just don't agree with it at all. Almost all of it devolves into trying to regulate the behavior of an extreme minority, at the cost of the larger majority of people who wouldn't misuse/abuse such a system. It's quite the double-standard, where Blizz is forcing you to be social (which is fine), but also hamstringing you on the social aspect where to feasibly participate you have to convince players to pay for extra services for server/faction transfers while the small pool of players who don't have to pay may not be able to play with you (or even help your guild if they're nice) due to RaidID lockouts. This doesn't even go towards trialing players who may have several prospects or in a guild already but looking to transfer.

I think as a start to making mythic raiding more accessible, the first step should be getting rid of RaidID lockouts in favor of loot lockouts. The only issue I'd see from a mainstream perspective would be extending/sharing mythic raid lockouts, allowing people to skip most of the mythic raid. Even if nothing is done to modify how lockouts work and Blizz was hardcore about wanting to keep CE achievements, they could make adjustments where you have an account-wide CE achievement that requires you to have killed every boss at least once on mythic (can even attach the mount to the achievement... like almost every other achievement). So even if you borrow a skip to the last boss, not only do you need to have the gear/skill to kill it, but also you'd still need to kill every boss leading up to it in order to get your CE achievement. Again, this would be if they don't even change how lockouts work, and there are many other options available within and without these restrictions to keep most players from cheesing a loot-lock system over a RaidID lockout system.

Yeah, that works. Additionally, in today's world of boosts, it really does not matter if a lockout is shared around. They also could do more with guild achievements, which kinda became a half forgotten feature at this point.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

FWIW, I think in five to ten years megaservers will be a necessity because dead/dying realms will have gone beyond the point of redemption -- we're not there yet, however, and it seems doubtful Blizzard is going to have an epiphany any time soon.ey.

Uh, what? Many realms started dying during WotLK, and were completely barren by the end of Cata. My original server Talnivarr EU had multiple Wowprogress pages of guilds who cleared everything back in TBC. This number was reduced dramatically over the duration of WotLK, took another giant blow with Cata trying to make 10man and 25man raids the same (this was the single worst blow the raiding community ever had to suffer through), and the server was unable to support raiding guilds by the end of Cata.

Transferred to Frostmane late Cata, which by this point was one of the biggest and most healthy EU Alliance servers for raiding. The server was healthy throughout MoP, but the same pattern that happened on my original server was obviously happening here aswell. By the end of WoD, the number of raiding guilds still going was down to a handful again. Although the server was not quite dead yet at that point, the ship was sinking, and I left to join a guild on another server. Throughout Legion, Frostmane basically killed itself by becoming a large majority Swedish server, which drove all of the remaining non-Swedes away, and now, the it's a barren wasteland just like Talnivarr.

You can't sit here and claim that we're not past the point of redemption, when the vast majority of the entire European WoW population is spread over a couple of megaservers like Draenor, Twisting Nether, Kazzak and Tarren Mill, with A LOT of realms being abandoned, dead wastelands like Talnivarr, and having been that way for many many years. I'm sure it's the same way for the other regions aswell.


Sure, it's easier for guilds to survive on a dying server now than it was 8 years ago, because today, transferring servers to join guilds is the norm, while back in Cata and MoP that was basically unheard of outside of the top 100 guilds, but the damage has already been done.

[bullseyed]

I mean, you'd basically bury the last bastion where the concept of a "guild" actually matters.

Also, it while it would lift barriers to enter a Mythic guild, it would make them far more unstable because people might just fuck off the moment they're stuck on a certain boss, because they don't have to transfer 3+ characters to another server.

While it would be an obvious QoL change, i'd rather see them reinforce the idea of guilds actually mattering again (in general, not just Mythic guilds), because a lot of the "Meta" related issues might resolve itself to some extent once people start to play with people they want to play rather than just strangers because it's more convenient.

That aside, people transferring 3+ characters when they join a Mythic guild is basically worth of someone subbing for 4-5 months.

They've already put in cross-realm communities, it seems they are planning to make guilds act the same way at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally wouldn't mind cross-realm mythic raids being open, but I don't think that would change anything about realm transfers. You would need guilds to be cross-realm for that to happen, not just the raid.

And as a mythic raider, I can tell you there's no way in hell we're inviting people that don't want to join our guild to do mythic progress. So having the option of cross-realm mythic raid doesn't actually matter without the guilds also being cross-realm.

Cross-realm communities already exist as an in-game function. Guilds can easily go cross realm.

[Whitedragon]

people said the same thing about LFD, yet here we are with the Game Director 10 years later admitting that the friction of the "pre LFD" were actually good for the game.

And he said that in a world where he didn't have to deal with the fallout/drawbacks of omitting said system for 10 years. Ease of access was what WoW was built on, even in vanilla, World of Warcraft was built to be the easier MMO, and that let it thrive. I can sure tell you I absolutely don't miss siting in Dal/Shat/SW/Org and spamming /2 with "Need 1 heals and 1 DPS for (Dungeon) then g2g!". Even the other mainline MMo's we have now usually incorporated these systems, because while we all love to remember the 1-2 friends we made by spamming trade no one wants to remember the hours/days wasted trying to set up said groups. Lastly I will point out that you still can make friends in LFD/LFR because I have managed that quite a few times over the years now myself.

[Kralljin]

And he said that in a world where he didn't have to deal with the fallout/drawbacks of omitting said system for 10 years.

That's a stretch.

Especially in the light of the fact that a few months earlier Mike Morhaime said a similiar thing, that one of the mistakes they made was to favour accessability over tools that rewarded people for playing with the same people (=socializing).

I can sure tell you I absolutely don't miss siting in Dal/Shat/SW/Org and spamming /2 with "Need 1 heals and 1 DPS for (Dungeon) then g2g!".

Preferable to being dropped into a with four random people that have vastly different expectations towards the game and skill levels.

Remember how much of a shitshow it was during Wotlk when you had new players grouped up with people that just want to blast through a heroic <15 min?
Fun times.

Or even Cata heroic, where some people simply were not good enough to actually complete heroics because you were just randomnly dropped with some people, then had to hope (if the people who couldn't measure up left or got kicked) the new guy actually was competent?

Like, they could've used the group finder that we have now, which is by the way the way to go nowadays, because the rewards from automated queueing systems such as LFD or LFR aren't worth a lot anymore in the grand scheme of things.

Even the other mainline MMo's we have now usually incorporated these systems

Other mainstreams MMO's copied WoW, that doesn't automatically mean it was a success.

Lastly I will point out that you still can make friends in LFD/LFR because I have managed that quite a few times over the years now myself.

I sure do love anecdotal evidence.

[goldlock]

That's a stretch.

Especially in the light of the fact that a few months earlier Mike Morhaime said a similiar thing, that one of the mistakes they made was to favour accessability over tools that rewarded people for playing with the same people (=socializing).

Preferable to being dropped into a with four random people that have vastly different expectations towards the game and skill levels.

Remember how much of a shitshow it was during Wotlk when you had new players grouped up with people that just want to blast through a heroic <15 min?
Fun times.

Or even Cata heroic, where some people simply were not good enough to actually complete heroics because you were just randomnly dropped with some people, then had to hope (if the people who couldn't measure up left or got kicked) the new guy actually was competent?

Like, they could've used the group finder that we have now, which is by the way the way to go nowadays, because the rewards from automated queueing systems such as LFD or LFR aren't worth a lot anymore in the grand scheme of things.

Other mainstreams MMO's copied WoW, that doesn't automatically mean it was a success.

I sure do love anecdotal evidence.

All of wrath starter dungeons were face roll though baring occulus and halls of lightning pre nerf...

I would argue that was the greatest flaw of the lfd system. It was originally built on content that was designed so you couldn't fail. If it launched during tbc I doubt it would of been met with the same attitude it was in wrath.