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  1. #81
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    Eh, a lot of the mechanics by today's standards don't really matter in Naxxarmas 40. Aside from a few bosses, the entire strategy in classic is keeping your 1-2 tanks alive, and if you can manage to do that, you're going to kill most of the bosses. Most of the enrage timers don't matter, and if you look objectively at things, there's plenty of mechanics you can massively fuck up and still kill most of the bosses on. Again, the entire mantra of classic as a whole is keep the tanks alive and you can pretty much skate through a lot of classic. Having a tank die usually causes things to go haywire because most bosses are taunt immune.

    WoTLK Naxxaramas was a complete joke, so I don't know why people are even comparing them. By today's standards, classic Naxxaramas is going to be a joke too, but not nearly as much as the WoTLK version. People ran into Naxx 25/10 with leveling gear and cleared it on the first reset because the tuning was incredibly poor. The void zones on Kel'Thuzad one shot in WoTLk and in Classic BTW, and I know that because one of our tanks lost our immortal run by standing in one right before we killed the boss. There were plenty of mechanics that could one shot you in Naxx 25 BTW, but I'm not going to sit here and make the argument that Naxx 25 is hard because of that potential, because that would be retarded.

    Telling people that "we do it" and where's your classic guild is kind of a joke though. Some people clearly aren't interested in classic, and I'm not exactly sure how it's an incredibly hard duty to keep a guild running in classic (as somebody who does it). One of the hardest things about being management in any guild in WoW is raid leading, which isn't exactly a difficult job in classic WoW. There are rarely any on the fly calls, and the majority of it thus far is spam linking the Onyxia scale cloak on your way to pull Nefarian like a retard to remind people to do the one thing that might actually cause their demise.

    The biggest issue in classic is people get bored incredibly quickly, want to re-roll or just take a break. Keeping people around is difficult because there's absolutely nothing that binds people to any individual guild unless it's a community you've built on live (or other games) for a good period of time. You know why this is? Because classic is easy and if you have any dispute about anything that's done, you can just leave your guild and join the thousands of other guilds that can clear the exact same content +/- an incremental amount of clear time (which in itself is a joke). People stuck with certain guilds in actual vanilla because server reputation mattered a bit more and there wasn't exactly a lot of guilds to join. Most people aren't going to care if your guild kills BWL 15 minutes faster than another one, because the time commitment in classic is incredibly small once you get past the leveling process. TLDR; nothing binds people or stops people from potentially jumping ship, because every ship is essentially the same.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Doubtful you had 14k HP at lvl 80.
    Here's a blurry video but you can make out the Resto Shaman recorder having 17,673 HP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCJqLoC3ZM

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Factsbeforefeelings View Post
    Here's a blurry video but you can make out the Resto Shaman recorder having 17,673 HP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCJqLoC3ZM
    Shaman had the lowest base HP in the game in LK, and he doesn't have kings. I posted a video earlier of the first recorded Saphhiron kill and the hunter in that video had 22k.

    So 14k would be unreasonably low for a fully raid buffed character, but not out of the realm of possibility if you were literally wearing greens.

    The average for full raid buffs was probably closer to 20-25k depending on class and gear level, with tanks of course having a fair bit more. Certain specs, (fury warrior comes to mind.) also had a lot more HP than other specs.

  4. #84
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    You literally had to have shaman with health flasks on Freya in Ulduar because the chances of them getting one shot were higher than any other class in the game with the base HP they had.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post


    This is Mograine EU 2 days ago.

    Most realms with WF guilds are similar or done.

    War effort only has to be completed within 48h of patch launch for a shot at world first, when the gates all open on the 4th and 5th.
    Interesting, guilds on Mankrik are being really secretive about how many mats they have. I just assumed that was the norm. Our spreadsheet only shows like 5% of mats gathered, when it';s obviously much higher than that.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    Shaman had the lowest base HP in the game in LK, and he doesn't have kings. I posted a video earlier of the first recorded Saphhiron kill and the hunter in that video had 22k.

    So 14k would be unreasonably low for a fully raid buffed character, but not out of the realm of possibility if you were literally wearing greens.

    The average for full raid buffs was probably closer to 20-25k depending on class and gear level, with tanks of course having a fair bit more. Certain specs, (fury warrior comes to mind.) also had a lot more HP than other specs.
    Still waiting on your response about Loatheb. WINDOW of healing allowed for what was it, 6 seconds, in WOTLK? Versus every healer getting NO window to heal, and get ONE spell.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ryjkur View Post
    This time we have raid tuned around 16 debuff slots so we might actually see few day race.
    lol, alrighty then.

    AQ will be clear in <2h at release (wont be <1h because of huge travel distances without scarabs).

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Still waiting on your response about Loatheb. WINDOW of healing allowed for what was it, 6 seconds, in WOTLK? Versus every healer getting NO window to heal, and get ONE spell.
    Why would I respond to that? I never said that was untrue.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Still waiting on your response about Loatheb. WINDOW of healing allowed for what was it, 6 seconds, in WOTLK? Versus every healer getting NO window to heal, and get ONE spell.
    You seem to be misremembering alot. The healing requirements between preBC and wotlk loatheb are skewed because of shadow prot pot chugging, bandages, whipper root tubers etc. that basically trivialized Loatheb healing wise. Not that it was hard to heal the fight in wotlk, it was a joke. Loatheb was not mechanically hard by any stretch of the imagination, whether it was the 40, 25 or the 10 man version.

  10. #90
    It seems a little silly to call it progression when these private server guilds have cleared the instance 200 times over the last 15 years.

    Wow guilds clear farm content really fast.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    You seem to be misremembering alot. The healing requirements between preBC and wotlk loatheb are skewed because of shadow prot pot chugging, bandages, whipper root tubers etc. that basically trivialized Loatheb healing wise. Not that it was hard to heal the fight in wotlk, it was a joke. Loatheb was not mechanically hard by any stretch of the imagination, whether it was the 40, 25 or the 10 man version.
    I don't think Loatheb 40 is actually possible without shadow protection potions/bandages/healthstones unless you got a raid with full world buffs and a bunch of warriors. That seems to be absolutely the intent of the encounter. He melees twice as hard as Nefarian so every heal kinda needs to go to the tank.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    If you look in the top left corner you can see the pally taking dmg from the frost aura. It ticks at 1:03, then again at 1:05, then again at 1:07, etc, etc. It's obviously every 2 seconds, not every second.

    Why do you just lie about everything when video evidence proves you wrong so easily? I genuinely don't understand the psychology of people like you, but I do find you fascinating. Is it some kind of belief preservation?

    And as other people have pointed out, Saphh's forst aura in naxx 25 did 1600 dmg per tick, not 200. @Dalinos is blatantly misinforming people and has not responded to a single one of my posts. Don't be so gullible.
    The game data seems to disagree. Maybe there's something with the frame rate in that video.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura



    It's definitely two seconds in WOTLK.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura





    So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.


    Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.

    It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are

    - That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
    - That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
    - That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
    - That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
    - That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
    - That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
    - That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_jxfX2ClY It's hard to imagine guilds that have killed it before wiping on WOTLK Kel'Thuzad for 5 hours.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-07-28 at 07:23 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It seems a little silly to call it progression when these private server guilds have cleared the instance 200 times over the last 15 years.

    Wow guilds clear farm content really fast.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think Loatheb 40 is actually possible without shadow protection potions/bandages/healthstones unless you got a raid with full world buffs and a bunch of warriors. That seems to be absolutely the intent of the encounter. He melees twice as hard as Nefarian so every heal kinda needs to go to the tank.
    Hence the infamous "healbot" anagram in its name. I do, however, think it's very doable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It seems a little silly to call it progression when these private server guilds have cleared the instance 200 times over the last 15 years.

    Wow guilds clear farm content really fast.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think Loatheb 40 is actually possible without shadow protection potions/bandages/healthstones unless you got a raid with full world buffs and a bunch of warriors. That seems to be absolutely the intent of the encounter. He melees twice as hard as Nefarian so every heal kinda needs to go to the tank.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The game data seems to disagree. Maybe there's something with the frame rate in that video.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura



    It's definitely two seconds in WOTLK.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura





    So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.
    You weren't in full frost resist gear at 80, therein lies the difference (not saying it's more or less or even the same, just pointing out the obvious caveat).
    Last edited by Bjay; 2020-07-28 at 07:08 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    You weren't in full frost resist gear at 80, therein lies the difference (not saying it's more or less or even the same, just pointing out the obvious caveat).
    To be fair, frost resist gear severely gimps your throughput.

    And you didn't need frost resistance in the 80 raid because it was grossly undertuned.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    To be fair, frost resist gear severely gimps your throughput.

    And you didn't need frost resistance in the 80 raid because it was grossly undertuned.
    The need for FR gear is irrelevant to the discussion, though. We were simply talking about the difference in dmg values between ticks in 40 man and 25 man.

    In the end, what it boils down to is how much each tick was doing relative to player's hp pool in 40man with FR and in 25/10 without FR in conjunction with differences in raidwide healing throughput between lvl 60 and 80.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    The need for FR gear is irrelevant to the discussion, though. We were simply talking about the difference in dmg values between ticks in 40 man and 25 man.

    In the end, what it boils down to is how much each tick was doing relative to player's hp pool in 40man with FR and in 25/10 without FR in conjunction with differences in raidwide healing throughput between lvl 60 and 80.
    Raidwide healing throughput is severely affected by having to wear frost resist gear so that seems pretty relevant.

    It's not in much doubt that the 60 version is a lot more difficult. World buffed raids with players that have cleared the instance 200 times will still blow it up instantly of course.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Raidwide healing throughput is severely affected by having to wear frost resist gear so that seems pretty relevant.

    It's not in much doubt that the 60 version is a lot more difficult. World buffed raids with players that have cleared the instance 200 times will still blow it up instantly of course.
    And raidwide healing throughput is in turn severely affected by dropping all FR (larger throughput needed). Nobody did the fight with 0 FR when it was current though (to my knowledge), so in my opinion it's a moot point when discussing difference in tick values compared to hp pools and relative healing throughput.

    The only x factor really (given x FR on everyone for argument's sake) is how much raidwide healing throughput is available in either version, the 40 man where healers are gimped throughput-wise and in the 10/25 where they aren't.

    There is also zero doubt that the 60 version is more difficult than the 10/25 version. Whether the 60 version can be considered difficult on its own is another debate and in my opinion, highly subjective.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It seems a little silly to call it progression when these private server guilds have cleared the instance 200 times over the last 15 years.

    Wow guilds clear farm content really fast.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think Loatheb 40 is actually possible without shadow protection potions/bandages/healthstones unless you got a raid with full world buffs and a bunch of warriors. That seems to be absolutely the intent of the encounter. He melees twice as hard as Nefarian so every heal kinda needs to go to the tank.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The game data seems to disagree. Maybe there's something with the frame rate in that video.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura



    It's definitely two seconds in WOTLK.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura





    So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.


    Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.

    It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are

    - That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
    - That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
    - That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
    - That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
    - That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
    - That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
    - That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_jxfX2ClY It's hard to imagine guilds that have killed it before wiping on WOTLK Kel'Thuzad for 5 hours.
    Holy shit, I actually DID remember right! It WAS every 1 second. And ofc, guardians of icecrown. And Chains. Damn its been years, but everything starts flowing back!

    Its gonna be so much fun re-visiting this place as an adult

  17. #97
    I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.


    Kel'Thuzad is certainly a big one but the fights that are going to be absurdly more difficult at 60 than 80 are Gothik and Four Horsemen.

    There's a number of other changes to encounters 60 vs 80 that are pretty serious.

    Anub'Rekhan: Taunt immune tank death is a wipe. Locust Swarm did 1,000 damage per stack at 60 and 1,500 per stack at 80. 60 tanks would absolutely be one shot and needed to kite the boss, 80 tanks could just get healed through it.

    Grand Widow Faerlina: Rain of Fire 2,000 at 60 4,000 at 80. HP quadrupled, so just a lot more tightly tuned. Also taunt immune.

    Maexxna: This encounter is basically neutered at 80 and there's a number of reasons why. First HoTs can't be stacked at 60, only one druid can have regrowth up. Second, the raid wide stun is 10 seconds at 60 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=29484/web-spray and 6 seconds at 80 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=54125/web-spray. Third Maexxna's base melee damage is 29,000 at 80 and 9,727 at 60 so she hits around 25% harder at 60 relative to hp pools. Fourth she's taunt immune at 60. So it's far more likely your tank dies at 60 and even if your tank dies at 80 you can taunt and keep going. Finally web wraps are put high up on the wall and take fall damage at 60.

    Noth the Plaguebringer: 20 curses vs 8 on 25-man. Taunt immunity means blink actually does something.

    Heigan the Unclean: In the same time frame there's 15 explosions in the 60 version and 11 explosions in the 80 version. So the dance is 36% faster. Also there's the tunnel teleport mechanic at 60 that just doesn't exist at 80. 80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVX8x5dq3g start counting at 1:04 60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHcHTAGGso start counting at 2:10. Also, taunt immune.

    Loatheb's been talked about. He's also taunt immune at 60.

    Patchwerk: Not too dissimilar actually. There's three hateful tank slots at 60 vs two at 80 and the 60 version hits roughly 25% harder and has more effective HP vs dps.

    Grobbulus: Basically the same.

    Gluth: Taunt immune, tank swaps are done through threat. Infected wound increases damage taken by 100 at 60 and 100 at 80, so stacks are about 400% more dangerous at 60.

    Thaddius: Stalagg has a mana burn aura at 60. Looking at video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOeAmq3USPI There's a six second safe window for polarity at 80 (charge switches at 1:50, starts doing damage at 1:56). The window is four seconds at 60, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQyZeI6QSk (3:16 polarity shifts, 3:20 starts doing damage) Thaddius, unlike many Naxxramas 60 bosses, is tauntable!

    Razuvious: His shout instakills mana users at 60, but he doesn't have the dagger throw. Pretty similar, slightly more technical with LOS at 60.

    Gothik: The tuning difference on this fight is fairly huge. A lot of guilds carefully CC tons of mobs at 60 to avoid being overwhelmed while it's a zergfest at 80. As a specific example, the arcane explosion the spectral trainees do does https://wotlkdb.com/?spell=27989 550 damage at 80 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27...cane-explosion 550 damage at 60. So it hits roughly 400% harder at 60. Also the undead side is immune to magic at 60.

    Four Horsemen: This fight might have the biggest difference in difficulty. First all the Horsemen are mobile and melee at 60. Second Horsemen marks last 75 seconds at 60 instead of 25 seconds at 80, the marks become lethal around mark 4 at 60 and mark 6 at 80. Third the Horsemen shield wall at 75%, 50% and 25% HP for 20 seconds at 60 making them nearly impossible to zerg down. So instead of a quick zerg on Korth'azz there's a long, drawn out sequence of group switches. Other funny tuning differences the void zones do less damage at 80 than 60.

    From a video of a level 70 player doing the encounter.



    And a level 80



    Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad have been talked about above.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-07-28 at 08:33 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Change that to few minutes and you got that right. Once the gate is open the raid gonna be deleted by anyone with half a brain.
    You mean by anyone whos already been farming it for a decade on PS's. Raiding AQ has very little to do with skill, but much more to do with practice.

  19. #99
    Just thought I'd throw this in because it seemed interesting regarding the discussion about Loatheb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    We can't pass the Magna Carta! That's socialism!

  20. #100
    Stood in the Fire chase_the_mofo's Avatar
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    There is no wall in AQ40, as you can pwn huhu in like 30 seconds xD
    Viscidus might be fun
    From all things I've lost I miss my mind the most.

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