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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Just thought I'd throw this in because it seemed interesting regarding the discussion about Loatheb.
    Yes, this was after TBC prepatch, shadow priest with gear would never run out of mana and healed like crazy. But that's not possible in Vanilla naxx. A shadow priest in tank group could be somewhat helpful, however.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Cause I was going with shit I remember from 15 years ago. I'm sorry it's not picture-perfect. I stand corrected for the FLAT dmg claims I made. But % wise? The truth of the matter is, without getting into semantics and who has the 100% correct numbers, that Naxx-25 mechanics were a joke whereas Naxx-40 mechanics hurt much more. You also seem to forget that the TOOLKITS of every single class/spec was much more complete and coherent in WOTLK than in Vanilla. Raid team size was also much smaller, so mechanics were much easier to deal with (1 people fucks up polarity shift, you wipe. 25 people/10 people de facto easier than 40 people, since 40 people = higher chance of fuck-up).

    I may have been wrong about the actual numbers, which I will gladly admit, cause it was memories from 15+ years ago. What I will not agree with is that Naxx-40 wasn't hard (forget APES and Method, look at the general population of guilds) and that Naxx-25 and Naxx-10 were a complete snoozefest that we cleared with SWP gear. Cause that's exactly what happened in WOTLK.

    I didn't come here to misinform, nor did I come here to be judged by strangers cause my memories from when I was a hormone-raging 14year old are abit hazy. I remember people on KT getting 1shot, now, if it was from the Frostbolt, the Iceblock, or the black void-zone on the floor that you cant even fucking see properly cause it's the same colour as the floor, is another issue. But people got 1shot on that fight in Vanilla and they didn't in WOTLK.

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    If logistics are so easy, and keeping 50+ active raiders happy, entertained and motivated, without having ANY loot drama in 11 months is so easy, where's your Classic guild that's clearing all content successfully and is prepping for AQ40 & Naxx? I know we are. I know the officer team is putting INSANE amounts of effort in: Recruiting, Roster-creating, managing sign-ups, managing loot, managing the excel sheet that has ALL our loot recorded from October of last year, etc etc. to keep this show up & running. If it's so easy, then surely you can do it too, right?

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    I have dude. Read above. I literally just admitted that I was going with hazy memories from 15 years ago. You are correct. I am wrong. Can we stop with the crucification now and get to the topic at hand? Mechanics in Naxx-40 mattered ALOT. Mechanics in Naxx-25 were non-existent.

    Also, here's one that I vividly remember for ya. Loatheb. In WOTLK, Naxx-25, you got a WINDOW where you could freely heal, for some seconds. In Naxx-40, there was NO WINDOW - you got the chance to cast ONE SPELL. Just one. ONE.

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    So it wasn't the AOE Frostbolt. My bad. This shit happened 15 years ago. Maybe it was the void-zone. Or perhaps it was the Iceblock. I don't fucking remember EXACTLY which spell was 1shotting people. I was too busy being a 14 year old with raging hormones, as mentioned earlier. But I do remember people being 1shot in Naxx-40. I do NOT remember people getting 1shot in Naxx-25.
    Not sure why you quoted me, might have been the wrong person.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    The game data seems to disagree. Maybe there's something with the frame rate in that video.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura

    So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Holy shit, I actually DID remember right! It WAS every 1 second. And ofc, guardians of icecrown. And Chains. Damn its been years, but everything starts flowing back!

    Its gonna be so much fun re-visiting this place as an adult
    I believe I have an explanation for this and it has to do with the nature of periodic effects in classic. If you look at the spell that applies the DoT, it's applied every 2 seconds: https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28529/frost-aura

    DoTs in classic reset their timers when they're reapplied. For example, on a Feral Druid, if you Rake, Rake, Rake 3 times in 3 seconds, you still aren't going to get your first DoT tick till 3 full seconds after your last Rake application. Likewise if you spam Corruption on a target (2 second cast time, 3 second tick time) you'll never actually get a damage tick off.

    So what's going on in saph is this:

    0 seconds - Frost Aura is applied
    1 second - Frost Aura ticks
    2 seconds - Frost Aura is reapplied (before the DoT gets to tick again)
    3 seconds - Frost Aura ticks
    4 seconds - Frost Aura is reapplied again...

    So on and so forth. Easily verifiable from the video because if you go to the end of the video where they kill him, you can see the tick rate double as soon as he dies: https://youtu.be/iRW7EoVwmk0?t=570

    Ticks at: 9:31 -> 9:33 -> 9:35 -> Saph dies -> 9:36 -> 9:37 -> 9:38 -> 9:39

    Now, if you look at the one on live WoW, you'll note that it no longer has a duration and the application spell no longer even exists in the files. Due to this back end mechanics change they had to change the tickrate on the aura to every 2 seconds instead of 1 second in order to get the same behavior from it.

    But due to this programming oddity, it's easy to see how someone could read that it ticks every second in vanilla, take that for granted and never think anymore about it. But during the encounter, it's always been 2 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.
    So the aura did 167% more damage at 80 vs 60, but that's still a far cry when you compare it to the increase in hp and healing power.
    Last edited by ShmooDude; 2020-07-29 at 01:34 AM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Just thought I'd throw this in because it seemed interesting regarding the discussion about Loatheb.
    Love this vid, Naxx hard btw, hope u know that. /s
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    Love this vid, Naxx hard btw, hope u know that. /s
    That was an oversight based on vampiric embrace not being affected by corrupted mind, which was hotfixed immediately after that kill.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-07-29 at 06:11 AM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    If logistics are so easy, and keeping 50+ active raiders happy, entertained and motivated, without having ANY loot drama in 11 months is so easy, where's your Classic guild that's clearing all content successfully and is prepping for AQ40 & Naxx? I know we are. I know the officer team is putting INSANE amounts of effort in: Recruiting, Roster-creating, managing sign-ups, managing loot, managing the excel sheet that has ALL our loot recorded from October of last year, etc etc. to keep this show up & running. If it's so easy, then surely you can do it too, right?
    You are right there, the raiders are quite tough to manage, my logistic point was aimed at material stuff, like gear and consumeables. Nevertheless, what does me not wanting to sink that much time into the game prove?

    Also,what does the social conflict have to do with the raid's difficulty? It may be tough to keep 40+ people motivated. But with that logic, everything that involves more than a few people is difficult, which would just make that word almost meaningless.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    You are right there, the raiders are quite tough to manage, my logistic point was aimed at material stuff, like gear and consumeables. Nevertheless, what does me not wanting to sink that much time into the game prove?

    Also,what does the social conflict have to do with the raid's difficulty? It may be tough to keep 40+ people motivated. But with that logic, everything that involves more than a few people is difficult, which would just make that word almost meaningless.
    Our Offtank shot our Maintank at point blank today due to loot, damn Classic is so hard!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    naxx25 proved that, naxx25 was cleared in a day because the content just wasn't hard and everyone knew the fights just like in Classic.
    You got to be kidding. Naxx25 bosses were doing largely the same damage numbers as they did originally at lvl 60, but this time the characters had like 4x the HP and dps... Of course it was piss easy.
    I'm not saying classic is hard, I actually canceled because it was way too easy. But get your facts straight. Naxx25 was a joke, Naxx40 was a bit more serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    Nah, you were just really bad in Vanilla and had whole expansion worth of much better raids as experience before you tried them again.
    ??? he is right, Naxx25 was undertuned as fuck, it's a mathematical fact, he even went into details. It's flat earther level idiocy to deny the tuning disparity between naxx25 and naxx40. Sure, vanilla was hard because almost everyone sucked at the game. That still doesn't change the tuning facts.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    You got to be kidding. Naxx25 bosses were doing largely the same damage numbers as they did originally at lvl 60, but this time the characters had like 4x the HP and dps... Of course it was piss easy.
    I'm not saying classic is hard, I actually canceled because it was way too easy. But get your facts straight. Naxx25 was a joke, Naxx40 was a bit more serious.

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    ??? he is right, Naxx25 was undertuned as fuck, it's a mathematical fact, he even went into details. It's flat earther level idiocy to deny the tuning disparity between naxx25 and naxx40. Sure, vanilla was hard because almost everyone sucked at the game. That still doesn't change the tuning facts.
    See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.

    I'm really surprised Dalinos keeps on posting that misleading information after he has been debunked a thousand times already in this thread with real sources (videos, wowwiki and wowpedia...).

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by WingsofLiberty View Post
    See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.

    I'm really surprised Dalinos keeps on posting that misleading information after he has been debunked a thousand times already in this thread with real sources (videos, wowwiki and wowpedia...).
    Actually, read the whole thread. You'll find out I was proven right about a bunch of things. My hazy memories from 15 years ago were quite more accurate than I thought.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    That was an oversight based on vampiric embrace not being affected by corrupted mind, which was hotfixed immediately after that kill.
    TIL, never really knew that was the reason, kinda good to know it was fixed.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    TIL, never really knew that was the reason, kinda good to know it was fixed.
    Also as I already said, this was done after TBC prepatch, you can easily see the Vampiric Touches on Loatheb for unlimited mana and over 16 debuffs. But reading the thread is hard, I guess.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Actually, read the whole thread. You'll find out I was proven right about a bunch of things. My hazy memories from 15 years ago were quite more accurate than I thought.
    They were really not accurate at all. Not even close. You pretty much made everything up.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by WingsofLiberty View Post
    See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.
    There's a bunch of cases where that's not true, pointed out earlier.

    For example, the arcane explosion from Gothik's Spectral Trainees hitting for the same damage at 60 and 80, which is a 400% tuning difference (easily verifiable, https://youtu.be/pRV-Fd_0oeg?t=113 80 https://youtu.be/awjalG130fc?t=205 60)

    Void Zones on Four Horsemen actually hitting for less at 80 than at 60.

    Also the mechanics being significantly altered to make them drastically easier on Maexxna, Four Horsemen and Kel'Thuzad. And the dance being slowed down by 36% on Heigan the Unclean, the polarity shift on Thaddius given an extra two second window before damage starts being dealt.


    Hell I'll just quote the whole post for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.


    Kel'Thuzad is certainly a big one but the fights that are going to be absurdly more difficult at 60 than 80 are Gothik and Four Horsemen.

    There's a number of other changes to encounters 60 vs 80 that are pretty serious.

    Anub'Rekhan: Taunt immune tank death is a wipe. Locust Swarm did 1,000 damage per stack at 60 (https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28786/locust-swarm) and 1,500 per stack at 80 (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Anub%27Rek...-man_Abilities). 60 tanks would absolutely be one shot and needed to kite the boss, 80 tanks could just get healed through it.

    Grand Widow Faerlina: Rain of Fire 2,000 at 60 4,000 at 80. HP quadrupled, so just a lot more tightly tuned. Also taunt immune.

    Maexxna: This encounter is basically neutered at 80 and there's a number of reasons why. First HoTs can't be stacked at 60, only one druid can have regrowth up. Second, the raid wide stun is 10 seconds at 60 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=29484/web-spray and 6 seconds at 80 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=54125/web-spray. Third Maexxna's base melee damage is 29,000 at 80 and 9,727 at 60 so she hits around 25% harder at 60 relative to hp pools. Fourth she's taunt immune at 60. So it's far more likely your tank dies at 60 and even if your tank dies at 80 you can taunt and keep going. Finally web wraps are put high up on the wall and take fall damage at 60.

    Noth the Plaguebringer: 20 curses vs 8 on 25-man. Taunt immunity means blink actually does something.

    Heigan the Unclean: In the same time frame there's 15 explosions in the 60 version and 11 explosions in the 80 version. So the dance is 36% faster. Also there's the tunnel teleport mechanic at 60 that just doesn't exist at 80. 80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVX8x5dq3g start counting at 1:04 60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHcHTAGGso start counting at 2:10. Also, taunt immune.

    Loatheb's been talked about. He's also taunt immune at 60.

    Patchwerk: Not too dissimilar actually. There's three hateful tank slots at 60 vs two at 80 and the 60 version hits roughly 25% harder and has more effective HP vs dps.

    Grobbulus: Basically the same.

    Gluth: Taunt immune, tank swaps are done through threat. Infected wound increases damage taken by 100 at 60 and 100 at 80, so stacks are about 400% more dangerous at 60.

    Thaddius: Stalagg has a mana burn aura at 60. Looking at video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOeAmq3USPI There's a six second safe window for polarity at 80 (charge switches at 1:50, starts doing damage at 1:56). The window is four seconds at 60, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQyZeI6QSk (3:16 polarity shifts, 3:20 starts doing damage) Thaddius, unlike many Naxxramas 60 bosses, is tauntable!

    Razuvious: His shout instakills mana users at 60, but he doesn't have the dagger throw. Pretty similar, slightly more technical with LOS at 60.

    Gothik: The tuning difference on this fight is fairly huge. A lot of guilds carefully CC tons of mobs at 60 to avoid being overwhelmed while it's a zergfest at 80. As a specific example, the arcane explosion the spectral trainees do does https://wotlkdb.com/?spell=27989 550 damage at 80 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27...cane-explosion 550 damage at 60. So it hits roughly 400% harder at 60. Also the undead side is immune to magic at 60.

    Four Horsemen: This fight might have the biggest difference in difficulty. First all the Horsemen are mobile and melee at 60. Second Horsemen marks last 75 seconds at 60 instead of 25 seconds at 80, the marks become lethal around mark 4 at 60 and mark 6 at 80. Third the Horsemen shield wall at 75%, 50% and 25% HP for 20 seconds at 60 making them nearly impossible to zerg down. So instead of a quick zerg on Korth'azz there's a long, drawn out sequence of group switches. Other funny tuning differences the void zones do less damage at 80 than 60.

    From a video of a level 70 player doing the encounter.



    And a level 80



    Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad have been talked about above.
    Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.

    It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are

    - That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
    - That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
    - That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
    - That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
    - That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
    - That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
    - That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_jxfX2ClY It's hard to imagine guilds that have killed it before wiping on WOTLK Kel'Thuzad for 5 hours.

  15. #115
    Hasn't every single fight been figured out already?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by CcB View Post
    Hasn't every single fight been figured out already?
    Yes. It's not progression it's a bunch of guilds that have farmed the instance 100 times clearing farm content. There's basically nothing to get excited about whatsoever.

    For the people playing classic who haven't done Ahn'qiraj before it'll be fun to actually do the instance but the OP is delusional about any 'race' occuring.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    but the OP is delusional about any 'race' occuring.
    There is always a race. Just give the crowd something to compete for.

    Which server is the fastest in completing war efforts?
    Who is the first player getting the rep done?
    Which guild managed the most scepters?
    Which server/guild bangs the gong first?
    First AQ20 Clear?
    First AQ40 Clear?

    For the Title "World of Warcraft Classic" all of those feats aren't done yet and they have to be writen. It is actually ridiculously hard to earn just one of those achievements: many die hard and very enthusiastic guilds, but only one can achieve one of these "world firsts".

  18. #118
    Wasn’t this threat going to be about AQ40?
    How did it become a Naxx progression threat?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    Except a lot of that is just untrue.

    Quoting myself from my response to Dalinos...

    Why do you guys ALWAYS have to lie about this shit when video evidence can prove you wrong so easily? https://youtu.be/6CNN_Cn2L2A?t=396

    You can clearly see a few seconds after the time stamp the frostbolt volley does around 35-40% of their HP in damage. And before you try to say they must have had frost protection potions up, they don't. You can clearly see in the rest of the video that they regularly get hit with the volley and it consistently does around 35-40% dmg.

    The 10 man version clearly does a little less, but only by about 5-10% or so. https://youtu.be/nM0NFpmi9X0?t=168

    The 25 man version does about the same amount of damage as the 40 man version, around 35-40% of a player's health. https://youtu.be/px6EVu7RjEY?t=185

    Here is the first recorded kill of 40 man Saphhiron. https://youtu.be/iRW7EoVwmk0?t=63

    If you look in the top left corner you can see the pally taking dmg from the frost aura. It ticks at 1:03, then again at 1:05, then again at 1:07, etc, etc. It's obviously every 2 seconds, not every second.

    Why do you just lie about everything when video evidence proves you wrong so easily? I genuinely don't understand the psychology of people like you, but I do find you fascinating. Is it some kind of belief preservation?

    And as other people have pointed out, Saphh's forst aura in naxx 25 did 1600 dmg per tick, not 200. @Dalinos is blatantly misinforming people and has not responded to a single one of my posts. Don't be so gullible.
    1. Orcs are not lame
    2. this is a game don't take it too seriously
    3. Don't pretend to know people like me from a 8 word post on a game website
    4. have a great day my friend and thank you for the information!

  20. #120

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