AQ40 progression thread

[Trinkie]

You are right there, the raiders are quite tough to manage, my logistic point was aimed at material stuff, like gear and consumeables. Nevertheless, what does me not wanting to sink that much time into the game prove?

Also,what does the social conflict have to do with the raid's difficulty? It may be tough to keep 40+ people motivated. But with that logic, everything that involves more than a few people is difficult, which would just make that word almost meaningless.

Our Offtank shot our Maintank at point blank today due to loot, damn Classic is so hard!

[Zka]

naxx25 proved that, naxx25 was cleared in a day because the content just wasn't hard and everyone knew the fights just like in Classic.

You got to be kidding. Naxx25 bosses were doing largely the same damage numbers as they did originally at lvl 60, but this time the characters had like 4x the HP and dps... Of course it was piss easy.
I'm not saying classic is hard, I actually canceled because it was way too easy. But get your facts straight. Naxx25 was a joke, Naxx40 was a bit more serious.

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Nah, you were just really bad in Vanilla and had whole expansion worth of much better raids as experience before you tried them again.

??? he is right, Naxx25 was undertuned as fuck, it's a mathematical fact, he even went into details. It's flat earther level idiocy to deny the tuning disparity between naxx25 and naxx40. Sure, vanilla was hard because almost everyone sucked at the game. That still doesn't change the tuning facts.

[WingsofLiberty]

You got to be kidding. Naxx25 bosses were doing largely the same damage numbers as they did originally at lvl 60, but this time the characters had like 4x the HP and dps... Of course it was piss easy.
I'm not saying classic is hard, I actually canceled because it was way too easy. But get your facts straight. Naxx25 was a joke, Naxx40 was a bit more serious.

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??? he is right, Naxx25 was undertuned as fuck, it's a mathematical fact, he even went into details. It's flat earther level idiocy to deny the tuning disparity between naxx25 and naxx40. Sure, vanilla was hard because almost everyone sucked at the game. That still doesn't change the tuning facts.

See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.

I'm really surprised Dalinos keeps on posting that misleading information after he has been debunked a thousand times already in this thread with real sources (videos, wowwiki and wowpedia...).

[Dalinos]

See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.

I'm really surprised Dalinos keeps on posting that misleading information after he has been debunked a thousand times already in this thread with real sources (videos, wowwiki and wowpedia...).

Actually, read the whole thread. You'll find out I was proven right about a bunch of things. My hazy memories from 15 years ago were quite more accurate than I thought.

[Frolk]

That was an oversight based on vampiric embrace not being affected by corrupted mind, which was hotfixed immediately after that kill.

TIL, never really knew that was the reason, kinda good to know it was fixed.

[Cracked]

TIL, never really knew that was the reason, kinda good to know it was fixed.

Also as I already said, this was done after TBC prepatch, you can easily see the Vampiric Touches on Loatheb for unlimited mana and over 16 debuffs. But reading the thread is hard, I guess.

[Pohut]

Actually, read the whole thread. You'll find out I was proven right about a bunch of things. My hazy memories from 15 years ago were quite more accurate than I thought.

They were really not accurate at all. Not even close. You pretty much made everything up.

[Nitros14]

See pages 2&3 of this thread. The Naxx25 abilities did on average 3x more damage, the bosses had 3-4x more HP and the characters had 4x more health/dps in WOTLK. Dalinos did not post mathematical facts. He posted misleading and false information based on *what he remembered*.

There's a bunch of cases where that's not true, pointed out earlier.

For example, the arcane explosion from Gothik's Spectral Trainees hitting for the same damage at 60 and 80, which is a 400% tuning difference (easily verifiable, https://youtu.be/pRV-Fd_0oeg?t=113 80 https://youtu.be/awjalG130fc?t=205 60)

Void Zones on Four Horsemen actually hitting for less at 80 than at 60.

Also the mechanics being significantly altered to make them drastically easier on Maexxna, Four Horsemen and Kel'Thuzad. And the dance being slowed down by 36% on Heigan the Unclean, the polarity shift on Thaddius given an extra two second window before damage starts being dealt.


Hell I'll just quote the whole post for you.

I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.


Kel'Thuzad is certainly a big one but the fights that are going to be absurdly more difficult at 60 than 80 are Gothik and Four Horsemen.

There's a number of other changes to encounters 60 vs 80 that are pretty serious.

Anub'Rekhan: Taunt immune tank death is a wipe. Locust Swarm did 1,000 damage per stack at 60 (https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28786/locust-swarm) and 1,500 per stack at 80 (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Anub%27Rek...-man_Abilities). 60 tanks would absolutely be one shot and needed to kite the boss, 80 tanks could just get healed through it.

Grand Widow Faerlina: Rain of Fire 2,000 at 60 4,000 at 80. HP quadrupled, so just a lot more tightly tuned. Also taunt immune.

Maexxna: This encounter is basically neutered at 80 and there's a number of reasons why. First HoTs can't be stacked at 60, only one druid can have regrowth up. Second, the raid wide stun is 10 seconds at 60 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=29484/web-spray and 6 seconds at 80 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=54125/web-spray. Third Maexxna's base melee damage is 29,000 at 80 and 9,727 at 60 so she hits around 25% harder at 60 relative to hp pools. Fourth she's taunt immune at 60. So it's far more likely your tank dies at 60 and even if your tank dies at 80 you can taunt and keep going. Finally web wraps are put high up on the wall and take fall damage at 60.

Noth the Plaguebringer: 20 curses vs 8 on 25-man. Taunt immunity means blink actually does something.

Heigan the Unclean: In the same time frame there's 15 explosions in the 60 version and 11 explosions in the 80 version. So the dance is 36% faster. Also there's the tunnel teleport mechanic at 60 that just doesn't exist at 80. 80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVX8x5dq3g start counting at 1:04 60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHcHTAGGso start counting at 2:10. Also, taunt immune.

Loatheb's been talked about. He's also taunt immune at 60.

Patchwerk: Not too dissimilar actually. There's three hateful tank slots at 60 vs two at 80 and the 60 version hits roughly 25% harder and has more effective HP vs dps.

Grobbulus: Basically the same.

Gluth: Taunt immune, tank swaps are done through threat. Infected wound increases damage taken by 100 at 60 and 100 at 80, so stacks are about 400% more dangerous at 60.

Thaddius: Stalagg has a mana burn aura at 60. Looking at video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOeAmq3USPI There's a six second safe window for polarity at 80 (charge switches at 1:50, starts doing damage at 1:56). The window is four seconds at 60, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQyZeI6QSk (3:16 polarity shifts, 3:20 starts doing damage) Thaddius, unlike many Naxxramas 60 bosses, is tauntable!

Razuvious: His shout instakills mana users at 60, but he doesn't have the dagger throw. Pretty similar, slightly more technical with LOS at 60.

Gothik: The tuning difference on this fight is fairly huge. A lot of guilds carefully CC tons of mobs at 60 to avoid being overwhelmed while it's a zergfest at 80. As a specific example, the arcane explosion the spectral trainees do does https://wotlkdb.com/?spell=27989 550 damage at 80 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27...cane-explosion 550 damage at 60. So it hits roughly 400% harder at 60. Also the undead side is immune to magic at 60.

Four Horsemen: This fight might have the biggest difference in difficulty. First all the Horsemen are mobile and melee at 60. Second Horsemen marks last 75 seconds at 60 instead of 25 seconds at 80, the marks become lethal around mark 4 at 60 and mark 6 at 80. Third the Horsemen shield wall at 75%, 50% and 25% HP for 20 seconds at 60 making them nearly impossible to zerg down. So instead of a quick zerg on Korth'azz there's a long, drawn out sequence of group switches. Other funny tuning differences the void zones do less damage at 80 than 60.

From a video of a level 70 player doing the encounter.



And a level 80



Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad have been talked about above.

Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.

It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are

- That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
- That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
- That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
- That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
- That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
- That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
- That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_jxfX2ClY It's hard to imagine guilds that have killed it before wiping on WOTLK Kel'Thuzad for 5 hours.

[Nitros14]

Hasn't every single fight been figured out already?

Yes. It's not progression it's a bunch of guilds that have farmed the instance 100 times clearing farm content. There's basically nothing to get excited about whatsoever.

For the people playing classic who haven't done Ahn'qiraj before it'll be fun to actually do the instance but the OP is delusional about any 'race' occuring.

[Millyraynge]

but the OP is delusional about any 'race' occuring.

There is always a race. Just give the crowd something to compete for.

Which server is the fastest in completing war efforts?
Who is the first player getting the rep done?
Which guild managed the most scepters?
Which server/guild bangs the gong first?
First AQ20 Clear?
First AQ40 Clear?

For the Title "World of Warcraft Classic" all of those feats aren't done yet and they have to be writen. It is actually ridiculously hard to earn just one of those achievements: many die hard and very enthusiastic guilds, but only one can achieve one of these "world firsts".

[Sámsa]

Wasn’t this threat going to be about AQ40?
How did it become a Naxx progression threat?

[WrongCracker]

Except a lot of that is just untrue.

Quoting myself from my response to Dalinos...

Why do you guys ALWAYS have to lie about this shit when video evidence can prove you wrong so easily? https://youtu.be/6CNN_Cn2L2A?t=396

You can clearly see a few seconds after the time stamp the frostbolt volley does around 35-40% of their HP in damage. And before you try to say they must have had frost protection potions up, they don't. You can clearly see in the rest of the video that they regularly get hit with the volley and it consistently does around 35-40% dmg.

The 10 man version clearly does a little less, but only by about 5-10% or so. https://youtu.be/nM0NFpmi9X0?t=168

The 25 man version does about the same amount of damage as the 40 man version, around 35-40% of a player's health. https://youtu.be/px6EVu7RjEY?t=185

Here is the first recorded kill of 40 man Saphhiron. https://youtu.be/iRW7EoVwmk0?t=63

If you look in the top left corner you can see the pally taking dmg from the frost aura. It ticks at 1:03, then again at 1:05, then again at 1:07, etc, etc. It's obviously every 2 seconds, not every second.

Why do you just lie about everything when video evidence proves you wrong so easily? I genuinely don't understand the psychology of people like you, but I do find you fascinating. Is it some kind of belief preservation?

And as other people have pointed out, Saphh's forst aura in naxx 25 did 1600 dmg per tick, not 200. @Dalinos is blatantly misinforming people and has not responded to a single one of my posts. Don't be so gullible.

1. Orcs are not lame
2. this is a game don't take it too seriously
3. Don't pretend to know people like me from a 8 word post on a game website
4. have a great day my friend and thank you for the information!

[exsanguinate]

Hows it going?

[IKT]

I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.

great post, thanks

[Aphrel]

AQ patch will open soon and raid progress starts once gates are opened. I think someone opens gate on the very first day, so we dont have to wait too long.

Everyone knew MC and BWL would be blasted under 1 hour once entering the raid but AQ40 will be different. This time we have raid tuned around 16 debuff slots so we might actually see few day race.

Huhuran is expected to be the first huge wall for WF raiders since leather users cant craft NR gear until later phases. C'thun itself is obviously going to be the hardest one but its just about tacticts rather than gear check like Huhuran.

Whos gonna be the first? My prediction is APES if they manage to get into raid without instance bugging like last time.

what? Huhuran? lol that boss isnt even an obsticle.

For a wf guild id say the big worry is someone acidently have a projectile in the air when twins swap position so that it instantly run across the room and starts healing.

Viscidius is probobly the boss guilds are most unsure about (unlesss the sapper cahrge tactic from private servers works i guess so it can be onephased).

C'thun mechanics are known and i doubt any top guild is gonna struggle with that boss. I wouldnt be suprised if top guilds have the dps to do p2 in a single weaken phase.

[Master Factician]

lmfao

The moment a good guild gets inside, C'thun will be dead in an hour.

Less than 40 minutes from start of raid to C'thun kill for Onslaught.

lol

[Kyanion]

Ah 40 minutes. Lol...

[Tantaburs]

Why on earth are people comparing the tuning of a final tier raid to that of an opening tier raid?

You know that opening tiers are INTENTIONALLY tuned easier that other raid tiers right? Naxx 10/25 being easier relatively than naxx 40 isn't a case of undertuning is literally designed to be easier.

I also don't know where the story that naxx 40 was "hard at level 70 in SWP gear" that a few people have used is coming from. I ran naxx 40 at 70 basically every week from when Sunwell was annouced because I wanted a corrupted Ashbringer and the main raid guild on the server wanted the Trinket from KTs phylatery for brutallus. The instance was a cake walk they didn't have gear requirements really they just brought whoever wanted to come and spectate old raids.

Actually, read the whole thread. You'll find out I was proven right about a bunch of things. My hazy memories from 15 years ago were quite more accurate than I thought.

I'm also not sure what you believe you were proven correct about. On all the points you were challenged on you were objectively proven false. You even admitted yourself that you were wrong and relying on hazy memory which itself is an odd statement to make when you previously said you found data proving you right on a source that someone else linked. So was your memory hazy and you lied about finding the data or was the source you found wrong and you lied about your memory being hazy? Cause it's gotta be one of those.

You did try to pivot from it did more flat damage to it did more relative damage which was also kinda proven false when video was shown. To combat that video you said that they used pots because kungen told them too ignoring the fact that the RW to use pots came right after a frost bolt so to me seems more likely to be a call to use healing pots than frost pots. of course the whole premise that it was because of pots was futher proved wrong from more time stamps from that video.

Sapphiron's aura hits harder in Vanilla than in WOTLK. Also, take a close look at the numbers you posted. 3,500 dmg out of a 5,000 HP healthpool (for casters/healers/DPS) is 70% of their total HP. 8,800 dmg out of a 25,000 HP pool is under 45% of that player's total HP. Ergo, Vanilla's KT is deadlier than WOTLK's KT, %-wise.

Regarding Sapphiron, HE is the boss who's aura does more flat dmg in the lvl 60 version than in the lvl 80 version. I am most certainly NOT the one who is trolling, as I just proved my point using the data YOU found. Another poster posted that Sapphiron's aura does 1,6k dmg every 2 secs unmitigated. We were all rocking 200/250+ Frost Res at the time, mitigating around 75% of the dmg, bringing the 1.6k down to 400. Exactly how I remember it.

Here's the quote where you say you found a source proving you right btw in case you want it.

[ryjkur]

Well, this wasn't as interestin as BWL race was. Hopefully Naxx will bring us longer race.

[Dracowolf]

I think you will always have guilds that plow through content. Thats always been the case, even in retail. Given teh simplicity of the content in classic vs retail.