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  1. #1

    Covenants, most disliked new xpac feature?

    I spent a few hours over on the WoW forums and there are several threads with 700-1k replies arguing for and against Covenants having abilities tied to them.

    Is this the most controversial addition to a new xpac to date?
    Do you believe Ion, was being honest when he said they would scrap Covenant abilities if people didn't like the idea?
    Guess we will find out.

  2. #2
    Covenants are great. Unswappable player power tied to them is rotten.
    I hope they just make them talents that go away next expac.

  3. #3
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    I spent a few hours over on the WoW forums and there are several threads with 700-1k replies arguing for and against Covenants having abilities tied to them.

    Is this the most controversial addition to a new xpac to date?
    Do you believe Ion, was being honest when he said they would scrap Covenant abilities if people didn't like the idea?
    Guess we will find out.
    Did he say the abilities would be scrapped? I thought he said that any restrictions on swapping Covenants would be scrapped

  4. #4
    People are rightly concerned about the player power being tied to it, but pretty much everything else coming out about covenants has been positive.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    Did he say the abilities would be scrapped? I thought he said that any restrictions on swapping Covenants would be scrapped
    That is the most likely outcome, and what Ion alluded to indeed.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    I think most people believe covenants are a great idea. It just feels weird that such a big amount of the player base is going to chose a covenant because of the power it provide and not because it's their favorite "theme". It could be successful but there seems to be so many problem that could be fixable by just un-tieing ability/power from the covenant itself.

    There is no way to make a choice permanent like that. What if they nerf/balance covenant 3 weeks in. What if in 9.1 the new power link to covenant make the one you chose not the best anymore etc...

    There is also a problem of immersion with covenant. like it would be great to see in the world people of your class having different looks. But if it ends up being: War best spec is fury and fury best covenant is ventyr so 90% of dps war you see in raid and dungeon play ventyr what's the point...

  7. #7
    I think it is more a clear concern for how the system is currently being designed and the underlying philosophy being more of a fantasy than based in reality. The fantasy part of the covenants is great, and I like the themes of them a lot. Problem is the whole tying power to them, and making them exclusive like that.

    I tend to both pvp and pve, and chances are that I will have to either gimp myself in either, or take a middleway that is subpar for both. Aka, no good choice, aka I won't stay subbed for more than the first month.

  8. #8
    It is easily among the most controversial ones without question.
    However, it needs to be said that it's controversial primarily because of Blizzards track record on these systems as far as balance is concerned.

    Ions admission to "make it easier to swap if necessary" seems hollow.
    Because what he's basically saying is what they've also done with other, similiar systems, release it in an imbalanced state with the lack of obvious QoL features, then balance it over the course of the expansion while also adding said obvious QoL features that could've been in there since day one.

    Most people just want to skip that "oops we fucked up phase".

  9. #9
    Most people like them just fine. It's just the top end raiders that want homogenization across the board and believe that RPGs should ever only be about narrative and story telling, never about how you build your character.

    They essentially want every single character that ever goes in to a mythic raid to be exactly the same. I wouldn't be surprised if they want to remove gear from the equation too.

  10. #10
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    I spent a few hours over on the WoW forums and there are several threads with 700-1k replies arguing for and against Covenants having abilities tied to them.

    Is this the most controversial addition to a new xpac to date?
    Do you believe Ion, was being honest when he said they would scrap Covenant abilities if people didn't like the idea?
    Guess we will find out.
    For controversy, I'd say it's high on the list.
    For most disliked...there was a lot of criticism of the BfA features, the mission table was not well received (and we still have a version of it!). I didn't include LFR/LFD, as those were patch features. Pathfinder requirements have received a lot of negative feedback as well.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  11. #11
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    I think most people believe covenants are a great idea. It just feels weird that such a big amount of the player base is going to chose a covenant because of the power it provide and not because it's their favorite "theme". It could be successful but there seems to be so many problem that could be fixable by just un-tieing ability/power from the covenant itself.

    There is no way to make a choice permanent like that. What if they nerf/balance covenant 3 weeks in. What if in 9.1 the new power link to covenant make the one you chose not the best anymore etc...

    There is also a problem of immersion with covenant. like it would be great to see in the world people of your class having different looks. But if it ends up being: War best spec is fury and fury best covenant is ventyr so 90% of dps war you see in raid and dungeon play ventyr what's the point...
    If they're worried about power like they're in some mythic record chaser guild when 99% of the time that probably isn't true then that is their fault.

    I for one am going to do the covenants that I want my characters to be in, I'm not a record chaser...I'm not pretending I'm Ash Ketchum when in reality I'm one of the random trainers with just two random pokemon you'd find in any game.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    I think most people believe covenants are a great idea. It just feels weird that such a big amount of the player base is going to chose a covenant because of the power it provide and not because it's their favorite "theme". It could be successful but there seems to be so many problem that could be fixable by just un-tieing ability/power from the covenant itself.

    There is no way to make a choice permanent like that. What if they nerf/balance covenant 3 weeks in. What if in 9.1 the new power link to covenant make the one you chose not the best anymore etc...

    There is also a problem of immersion with covenant. like it would be great to see in the world people of your class having different looks. But if it ends up being: War best spec is fury and fury best covenant is ventyr so 90% of dps war you see in raid and dungeon play ventyr what's the point...
    The point is meaningful decisions. If you choose a covenant because it is the most powerful then you leave your fate to the gods.

    Let's say that you did get nerfed or something is better in the next patch. What now? You have 3 decisions to make. 1. Do nothing. You made your choice and you will stick to it.
    2. Move to the new best covenant knowing that it is possible that it may not always be the best.
    3. Move to the covenant that you find the most pleasing to you

    2 and 3 may be the same as all you care about is power. 3 might be the best looking option but under powered.

    This is what a meaningful decision is. It is sacrificing something in order to get the covenant that has the features you find most important. If power is most important you sacrifice time to keep the most powerful covenant after nerfs and patches. If the way it looks is most important you might sacrifice power.

    Being able to swap covenants with ease makes the decision meaningless and if it's meaningless why have it in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    I spent a few hours over on the WoW forums and there are several threads with 700-1k replies arguing for and against Covenants having abilities tied to them.

    Is this the most controversial addition to a new xpac to date?
    Do you believe Ion, was being honest when he said they would scrap Covenant abilities if people didn't like the idea?
    Guess we will find out.
    Covenants are simply wrong philosophy design
    You are making players choose between Power and Aesthetics

    Aside from balance issues, which we know is gonna happen. They have alot of issues

    1) what if i like the venthyr ability for balance druid but the kyrian one for resto druid? It just creates a problem and makes it a hassle to play different spec . Same for the soulbinds/conduits
    2) they actually limit choice, Each covenant has 3 soulbinds, if they are not covenant-bound . We would have had 12 soulbinds to choose from. More choice! + characters unrelated to covenants could be introduced
    3) what if venthyr ability is good for mythic+ but useless for raids for ex. It just makes you bad in some content because of "meaningful choice mantra"

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Most people like them just fine. It's just the top end raiders that want homogenization across the board and believe that RPGs should ever only be about narrative and story telling, never about how you build your character.

    They essentially want every single character that ever goes in to a mythic raid to be exactly the same. I wouldn't be surprised if they want to remove gear from the equation too.
    That's just BS... The amount of player who want a "tournament realm" style game is extremely small. The concern over some part of the covenant choice are quite spread across the community tho.

    Saying it's just top end player who have problem with the system is complete crap. Yes some part of the community are outrage at everything (see 5% spell variation) but here there is clearly a greater concern in the general community here.

    Yes the system might end up being fine but say what you want, player power being linked to the choice will make a large part of the player base who do stuff in the game (pvp M+ raiding) choosing the "best covenant" and not the one the feel more "fun" or more "cool".

    be ready to see 90% of the player of a class play the same covenant in most end game content.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It is easily among the most controversial ones without question.
    However, it needs to be said that it's controversial primarily because of Blizzards track record on these systems as far as balance is concerned.

    Ions admission to "make it easier to swap if necessary" seems hollow.
    Because what he's basically saying is what they've also done with other, similiar systems, release it in an imbalanced state with the lack of obvious QoL features, then balance it over the course of the expansion while also adding said obvious QoL features that could've been in there since day one.

    Most people just want to skip that "oops we fucked up phase".
    It's not an "oops we fucked up phase" it's dragging subscriptions out longer so blizzard makes more money. It happened with legendaries, it happened with artifacts, it happened with azerite gear, it happened with esscences, and it happened with corruption.

    Covenants will be broken on release. 9.1 will "fix" them. 9.2 will bring the extra system. 9.3 will bring the currency. That's the pattern and it will keep in recurring
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  16. #16
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Most people like them just fine. It's just the top end raiders that want homogenization across the board and believe that RPGs should ever only be about narrative and story telling, never about how you build your character.

    They essentially want every single character that ever goes in to a mythic raid to be exactly the same. I wouldn't be surprised if they want to remove gear from the equation too.
    It would be nice if you would just stop making up a bunch of nonsense to fit your narrative that only mythic raiders are criticizing the implementation of the player-power aspect of Covenants.

    There is criticism in their implementation from people who want to be able to perform well in multiple types of content, because M+ and PvP and Raiding don't all have the same demands. Being unable to freely switch Covenants handicaps players who want to be able to perform well in more than 1 specific type of content, I don't make any claims about how many people that is because such claims would be lacking in anything to substantiate them in terms of actual numbers.

    Please stop with your unsubstantiated claims, lying, and hyperbole. You're not contributing towards any constructive discussion when you do any of that.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    Is this the most controversial addition to a new xpac to date?
    No, that was when Ion decided that World of Warcraft would benefit from the removal of flight in new content, and he announced it on a interview for some fanpage.

    We'r discussing the positives and negatives of flying until today.

    Covenants is just people bandwagoning with the opinion of dramatic streamers who make a ruckus to create drama.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CenariusTheForestLord View Post
    Covenants are great. Unswappable player power tied to them is rotten.
    I hope they just make them talents that go away next expac.
    this so much

    the idea of pledging yourself to a covenant is amazing

    the idea of being told you cant do what another player of your spec can because of some arbitrary choice is BS
    maybe you chose it for RP and cosmetics
    maybe you chose it because you like the story
    no fuck you the only meaning is the ability and if you want to change it then youre a crying baby

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    ...
    be ready to see 90% of the player of a class play the same covenant in most end game content.
    This is exactly what the decision makers at blizzard want. They will see this 90% and then they will nerf it. Unbalanced abilities mean a nerf. A nerf will mean players subscribe longer to get the new best power. Then it's patch time and who knows what will be best then. It's clear now that Blizzard doesn't make that many balancing mistakes. They know what is going to happen and they develope like this with imbalances on purpose. It's a lot easier than making a game people like to keep them subscribed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    this so much

    the idea of pledging yourself to a covenant is amazing

    the idea of being told you cant do what another player of your spec can because of some arbitrary choice is BS
    maybe you chose it for RP and cosmetics
    maybe you chose it because you like the story
    no fuck you the only meaning is the ability and if you want to change it then youre a crying baby
    It's not arbitrary. As a player you are making the choice and you are making the choice that has most value to you. If you choose power as the most important choice then that is a meaningful choice. You might sacrifice fun or looks for this power but this is the priority and you have chosen this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    If they're worried about power like they're in some mythic record chaser guild when 99% of the time that probably isn't true then that is their fault.

    I for one am going to do the covenants that I want my characters to be in, I'm not a record chaser...I'm not pretending I'm Ash Ketchum when in reality I'm one of the random trainers with just two random pokemon you'd find in any game.
    It's a multiplayer game. Most people play what is best. I'm not saying it's the right choice. Yes in a perfect world most player would be nice to each other and all class/spec/covenant would see equal play and equal choice. That's just not how it is tho. And that's going to create negative experience for many player.

    The problem here is that blizzard is setting people up to fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    The point is meaningful decisions. If you choose a covenant because it is the most powerful then you leave your fate to the gods.

    Let's say that you did get nerfed or something is better in the next patch. What now? You have 3 decisions to make. 1. Do nothing. You made your choice and you will stick to it.
    2. Move to the new best covenant knowing that it is possible that it may not always be the best.
    3. Move to the covenant that you find the most pleasing to you

    2 and 3 may be the same as all you care about is power. 3 might be the best looking option but under powered.

    This is what a meaningful decision is. It is sacrificing something in order to get the covenant that has the features you find most important. If power is most important you sacrifice time to keep the most powerful covenant after nerfs and patches. If the way it looks is most important you might sacrifice power.

    Being able to swap covenants with ease makes the decision meaningless and if it's meaningless why have it in the first place.
    I don't argue for swapable covenant. I just think the meaningful choice is going to end up being one most player will be uncomfortable with... And by that I'm saying that yes in the best world people should choose the covenant they like the most. the problem is if most player don't do that it's that there is an inerrant problem behind the system itself. And that the system is bond to "fail"

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