Covenants, most disliked new xpac feature?

[Kalador]

My point is they want it all while not being required to make a choice...RPGs have always been about making choices, often those choices being hard to reverse.

But since vanilla the game has removed choice after choice that players wanted removed then players complain that there aren't any meaningful choices anymore. Now they're given a choice...you can go with the covenant with the best ability but may not have the best story or your favorite armor. Or the ability that you think is the coolest ever but the armor may not be your style.

People just want the most powerful ability while having the story of their choice and armor of their choice...thus eliminating the RPG element that they complain is gone.

It's BFA all over again, people for years were crying that they're tired of Orcs and Demons and for the faction war to be front and center again and when it does come back people complain that faction wars suck.

It's like they're asking for a piece of real apple pie but they want it to be sugar and fat free, their wants just aren't compatible with reality and they blame Blizzard for that.

yeah I agree that the community can sometime feels like it doesn't know what it wants. But i still think that on the covenant the outrage outlines true flaws of the system and are not just the normal general community rage over stupid shit.

I agree with you that choice in RPG are super cool but i don't know how well those permanent choice apply to wow. Single player RPG are a very different setting than an mmorpg even more so in 2020 and wow never really had a true choice like that. Maybe it will turn out super good and fun but I truly think many player will feel like they couldn't chose what they wanted and to me that is a failure of this system.

[Relapses]

Covenants punch min-maxing in the face, and that's a good thing. The less min-maxing can be expected, the better.

But that's the issue: People are going to do it anyway. And if they're going to do it anyway then it will become expected that you do it. The end result will be that Mythic raiding will be even further restrictive than it is already, requiring that you not only be good at the game but also that you have an inordinate amount of time to spend jumping through whatever hoops Blizzard puts in place to restrict you from swapping Covenants. You can sit humbly on your throne of humility and say, "fuck the Mythic raiders, they're not Blizzard's target demographic anyway," but I think that removes one of the fundamental carrots at the end of the stick for many players.

[goldlock]

It doesn't really matter. The same can all be said about class yet we never see a class become completely unplayed.

Somewhere... a warlock trying to find a mythic plus key is screaming.

[NineSpine]

Somewhere... a warlock trying to find a mythic plus key is screaming.

Do you need me to link you to logs showing plenty of warlocks in high keys?

[GreenJesus]

I looked up some of the soulbind for paladin and the variety in usefulness was pretty wide. I only really saw like one that was actually good for DPS. It increases our blade of wrath damage by 50% and increases its range by 2 yards. One of our main rotation abilities getting a 50% buff from a soulbind? Meanwhile another soulbind gives you some movement speed AFTER hand if freedom expires. Like.. okay?? Usually I want the movement speed DURING hand of freedom while I'm not rooted.

Thanks I guess?

[goldlock]

But that's the issue: People are going to do it anyway. And if they're going to do it anyway then it will become expected that you do it. The end result will be that Mythic raiding will be even further restrictive than it is already, requiring that you not only be good at the game but also that you have an inordinate amount of time to spend jumping through whatever hoops Blizzard puts in place to restrict you from swapping Covenants. You can sit humbly on your throne of humility and say, "fuck the Mythic raiders, they're not Blizzard's target demographic anyway," but I think that removes one of the fundamental carrots at the end of the stick for many players.

I don't think they are going to listen... they see this as something new but for those more experienced well... we all arrive by the old road.

Victory over the min maxers....?

What a hollow and insane notion.

[NineSpine]

I looked up some of the soulbind for paladin and the variety in usefulness was pretty wide. I only really saw like one that was actually good for DPS. It increases our blade of wrath damage by 50% and increases its range by 2 yards. One of our main rotation abilities getting a 50% buff from a soulbind? Meanwhile another soulbind gives you some movement speed AFTER hand if freedom expires. Like.. okay?? Usually I want the movement speed DURING hand of freedom while I'm not rooted.

Thanks I guess?

Those arent soulbinds.

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I don't think they are going to listen... they see this as something new but for those more experienced well... we all arrive by the old road.

Victory over the min maxers....?

What a hollow and insane notion.

Nobody cares about your little club of mythic raiders. You are as important as other fringe activities, like pet battles.

[Tojara]

Guess it's pointless to discuss until they finally arrive at the difficulty of swapping back and forth?

I realistically think they can cater to nearly everybody if they hit the balance right (balance in swapping back and forth, not the actual balance, because balance in this game is constantly up and down). Them telling me that it's difficult to swap back doesn't really tell me much, because difficult to swap back is entirely dependent on the player in question.

I think that if it's a reasonable time sink, or a CD, that it would be a reasonable request. If you're raiding and you're progressing on something where a certain covenant might make something easier, than that's an option you can think about doing if it's reasonable. Reasonable is the big question, and if there's an easier avenue to take, people will just take that. Historically, when there's a hurdle to pass in the raiding game or there's inherent cheese by stacking certain classes, people ask you to level multiple characters, or just have a roster big enough to swap people around. Keep in mind that this scenario isn't really something a lot of guilds actively think about.. at all.

If you look at a boss like Un'naat in CoS, there was a pretty obvious trend in what worked. Abilities that like completely cheesed the lasers were incredibly strong, but so wasn't ankh. Depending on what kinda guild you're in, I'd say that extreme compositions like that aren't reasonable for most guilds at all, even for those at the very top. What would be more reasonable however is the ability to just change your covenant, and every class having the ability to say, blink through lasers like that. Most guilds don't have a deep bench, nor do most guilds require you to keep several characters geared and ready to go on a dime (most guilds just hope that you can play a single character).

I get what they're trying to do, but to me, it literally comes down to how often. I think it's incredibly stupid to just keep adding systems in the game where you press a magic button and are able to freely change your specialization so that you can optimize fucking trash better, or literally change every little thing about your character so your 'farm parse' looks better. If covenant swaps can maintain a balance where it's not a complete pain in the ass to swap between some of them, and reasonably allow you to go back and forth a few times a week without being too much of a time sink, then sign me up.

There are so many ways they could implement systems that both allow you to experiment with different covenants, and at the same time not be a complete pain in the ass. Allowing you a single 'free' swap weekly, or bi-weekly with no repercussions is a way they could do it. It both allows experimentation, isn't a time sink, but also preserves them wanting your choice to be somewhat meaningful.

[goldlock]

Do you need me to link you to logs showing plenty of warlocks in high keys?

I don't think you understand the point and that is alright. In some odd way im rooting for your absurd notion of ending min maxing. Your will fail without even striking a blow but much like paradise lost I feel for those who strive to fight something so far beyond them.

[NineSpine]

I don't think you understand the point and that is alright. In some odd way im rooting for your absurd notion of ending min maxing. Your will fail without even striking a blow but much like paradise lost I feel for those who strive to fight something so far beyond them.

Ah your point is that even though plenty of warlocks are doing it just fine it's still some esoteric and impossible to see problem because you just KNOW it is. Right.

[goldlock]

Those arent soulbinds.

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Nobody cares about your little club of mythic raiders. You are as important as other fringe activities, like pet battles.

That is fine it isn't like mythic raiders beyond the strange one now and then cares about the other players. Do as you will I have no interest nor ability to stop you.

Seek solace in a manner befitting your linage.

Your progress is only measured in progressive realization and dawning horror.

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Ah your point is that even though plenty of warlocks are doing it just fine it's still some esoteric and impossible to see problem because you just KNOW it is. Right.

Who am I to argue matters of faith and fury?

[NineSpine]

That is fine it isn't like mythic raiders beyond the strange one now and then cares about the other players. Do as you will I have no interest nor ability to stop you.

Seek solace in a manner befitting your linage.

Your progress is only measured in progressive realization and dawning horror.

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Who am I to argue matters of faith and fury?

You are significantly less erudite than you think you are.

[Echocho]

this is an mmo NOT an rpg,in multiplayer games systems so imbalanced dont work,also it wont affect just the top end,we have seen this TIME AND TIME AGAIN,that it trickles down to the most casual of casuals,people in normal guilds and 1-7 m+ WILL discriminate if you have a covenant that is seen as weak

Blizzard seems to consider it a RPG so it doesn't really matter if you don't. They're designing it as a RPG either way.

[goldlock]

You are significantly less erudite than you think you are.

It would only appear to you as so.

[NineSpine]

It would only appear to you as so.

Alright buddy, keep humping that thesaurus.

I'll be here in the real world where warlocks do fine in M+.

[GreenJesus]

Those arent soulbinds.

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Nobody cares about your little club of mythic raiders. You are as important as other fringe activities, like pet battles.

Yes they are.

https://www.wowhead.com/guide=10597/...or-shadowlands

Light's Reach (Potency Conduit) Blade of Justice's range is increased by 2 yds and deals 20% more damage.

The max rank of it gives 50%.

[Kaver]

Nobody is benching you over a covenant ability dude.

It depends on the balance of the covenants. If one covenant is doing 10-15 % damage more than another, then it will be very possible to be benched because of that. And Blizzard are not very good at balancing multiple systems at once. The covenants also offers utility abilities which are hard to balance. A teleport (for example) will most likely be much better than other utility abilities.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

We don't know. We just know they said switching to a new one will be easy and is not intended to be a barrier. I gave you the information we have. Don't worry, I'll never make the mistake of being helpful to you again.

If you think it is helpful to respond to my question with a non-answer, you have a very strange definition of the word "helpful". If you don't have an answer to a question I asked of someone else, I'll go ahead and thank you in advance for your future non-interference.

[goldlock]

Alright buddy, keep humping that thesaurus.

I'll be here in the real world where warlocks do fine in M+.

If you insist I won't argue the point. We are chained here you and I.

Progress feeds off progress. In your petty pursuit in ending min maxing you consume those who rally to your cause and in doing so you strength min maxing accelerating the end.

This is as it should be. It is why you are here.

[Notshauna]

But that's the issue: People are going to do it anyway. And if they're going to do it anyway then it will become expected that you do it. The end result will be that Mythic raiding will be even further restrictive than it is already, requiring that you not only be good at the game but also that you have an inordinate amount of time to spend jumping through whatever hoops Blizzard puts in place to restrict you from swapping Covenants. You can sit humbly on your throne of humility and say, "fuck the Mythic raiders, they're not Blizzard's target demographic anyway," but I think that removes one of the fundamental carrots at the end of the stick for many players.

I mean of course some mythic raiders are going to min-max and play the game in a really unhealthy way, they've done it with literally every system in the game. They ran Maw of Souls into oblivion for artifact power, they grinded island expeditions for their neck and they spent absurd amounts of gold on buying BoE corruption items. Frankly, it doesn't really matter if the system is broken for these people, they're so obsessed with reaching the absolute maximum power level that they'll break any system in the game.