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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That is not incentive, that is filling a bar. Incentive is actually having some rewards from dungeon itself.

    Before you say stupid stuff like "it's the same", it not.

    There is huge difference between:

    "Oh, an upgrade may drop for me!"
    vs
    "Oh shit still 9 dungeons to go".
    or we can just let people stop when they want? you dont need to get 9 or even 6+ rewards to remain competitive. This argument is ridiculous. I really don't need daddy blizzard telling me when to stop running content but you are really giving the impression that you lack the impulse control to stop when you don't want to do something anymore.

    How about we let the people who want to farm just M+ get multiple options along with the people who just want to raid and those who just want to pvp. Even the people that do a little mix of all 3 get to choose. But oh no the try hard that want to run 20+ hours of content to increase thei box rewards will get more OPTIONS not even more rewards.... OPTIONS. The change is a amazing upgrade over the current system but you preaching that its a downgrade cause the top of the top get more optimal rewards each week POTENTIALLY is just you wanting to be negative. Who cares if some one that plays more than you gets more than you. Its not gonna ruin your raid spot, its not gonna ruin your pug spot, its not gonna ruin your M+ runs.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is. I generally enjoy M+ but in moderation. 15M+ a week will be a given for people who want to be at very least competitive. And that is going to burn them out faster than match thrown into a lava.
    I don't really think so myself. That said to me it makes more sense then the trash system of ap, azerite, essences, and soul binds.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    If you don't want to run 15 M+ dungeons then don't.
    But then you are passing on your chance of getting usable items from the chest. You need to open every slot in it for the biggest chance to have something good there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    Yeah you don't understand how it works. If you only do a single +15 key, you get your 1 random +15 piece like you did in Legion and now do in BFA without having any control over what piece that is. If you do 15 +15s, you get to CHOOSE one item from 3 random items presented to you. If you want more control over your piece, you run 15 dungeons. If you just want to do one +15 and get a random piece of loot like it is now and then fuck off for the rest of the week, you can still do that.
    Getting only one item means we can be fucked over by the chest like we have been for Legion and BFA.

    We need to open every slot to have the biggest chance to actually have something usable on it.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    But then you are passing on your chance of getting usable items from the chest. You need to open every slot in it for the biggest chance to have something good there.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Getting only one item means we can be fucked over by the chest like we have been for Legion and BFA.

    We need to open every slot to have the biggest chance to actually have something usable on it.
    There is a HUGE difference between having 1 item to choose from and having 9.
    The first Tier of each reward source (Raids, M+, PvP) is incredibly easy to obtain. That's 3 choices.
    The second Tier is also relatively easy to accomplish weekly, especially on a single character. That bring you to 6 choices.
    The third Tier will require some more dedication if you really want all 9 choices.

    Personally, I can see myself having 3-5 options most weeks and I'm perfectly fine with that. It's vastly better than BFA/Legion and also means on the weeks I only feel like raid logging, I'll still get a chest.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by goldentforce View Post
    I don't understand what falling behind mythic raiders means i guess. If you want the most and best loot, it has always been to mythic raid.
    Yes it always was. And now it's getting buffed with each change they make. Why, what's the point? That's not gonna increase mythic raiding participation, it's just gonna drive other people away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Who cares if some one that plays more than you gets more than you. Its not gonna ruin your raid spot, its not gonna ruin your pug spot, its not gonna ruin your M+ runs.
    It actually is. People not raiding mythic are gonna have a much harder time getting invited to anything because the gear differences are going to be huge.

  6. #266
    Ill take this over getting a motherfucking ring every fucking week

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    This looks like pure garbage tbh.

    Force everyone to run 15 +15 m+ dungeons to stay competitive, gotta grind those MAU's somehow right, lmao.
    If forcing people to do something they loathe brings Blizz more MAU's, I think those people have a problem called addiction.

    I am semi-competitive (top 30 guild) but I don't feel forced to do 15 m+. Doing 5 m+ and missing one reward choice won't make or break my game.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by hitman84 View Post
    I really don't understand how people are saying this is worse then the current system.
    If all you did with this new system is one 15, it works exactly like it does now.
    Put in a little more effort and get more options to choose from.
    How is this a bad thing?
    Because people like to Complain and Bitch about stuff.

    Also, they get less loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    What's not to understand? Mythic raiders will be getting more with less effort than what they are putting now, while everyone else will overall be getting less even if they put in more effort than now.
    And that affects you in what way?

    Not to mention that EVERYONE gets less loot than they do now, and that is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    So if i'm getting it...let's say heroic raid ilvl is 200.

    I do 10 heroic raid bosses and get 3 200 ilvl options.
    I do 15 m+10 and get 3 210 ilvl options.

    Is this it? The weekly chest from max m+ is still higher ilvl than heroic raids?
    M+ on max level is harder than Heroic Raid. So yea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athulua View Post
    I wonder how the Raid chest will work.
    For example I'm 3/12 mythic NYA currently. I can easily join a pug and farm that 3
    Then i boost my boss kill count to 10 by farming some heroic (i have curve, that's a given if i'm doing any sort of mythic content)
    My end of week chest would be 1 choice from Mythic and 2 choices from Heroic
    this is how i understand this.

    And i wonder whether this will be able to pick loot from bosses I haven't killed or not. Mythic is no joke and sometimes progressing on a boss takes weeks upon weeks. Accessing such loot would be kinda silly. It would invalidate the reward from killing, as chances are that by the time you kill it, you got it from the weekly chest. WOD Garrison missions made mythic kills feel unrewarding (in terms of loot).
    For the first part, I would wager that Each "Card" or "Slot" has its own ItemLevel. That means if you kill 3 Mythic, 7 Heroic, and 10 Normal bosses, you get a Choice from one of each Difficulty.

    As for the Second, there is nothing on the Loot Pool, if it works Right now (with the RaidChests), you can get any Item from the Raid, but there is no indication for either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    What do you mean they are not getting more? They are getting the weekly chest with the max reward by just killing 1 mythic boss, no need to do M+ at all. How is that not more than what they are getting now with less effort?

    And that is not the only thing, because you can't look at this change outside of the context of all the other changes. And every recent thing has been a buff to mythic raiding and a nerf to M+ - removal of titanforging, less dungeon loot, free weekly chest for raiders and more options in it, etc.

    They do get more loot though because bosses drop loot, while dungeons without titanforging drop shit.
    For one: They dont get Mythic Loot for killing one Boss, if they did, it would not give them any Advantage, the First boss in Mythic is almost always a Pushover (For Mythic Standard)
    Second, the datamining suggests you get 1 Choice for 3, 1 for 7, and another for 10. So to get their MaxLevel Choices they would need to clear the raid.
    Third: Do you Honestly believe running a +15 key is any Effort at all for Mythic Raiders?
    Its not even an Effort for me who doesnt step into Mythic Raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    There is a HUGE difference between having 1 item to choose from and having 9.
    The first Tier of each reward source (Raids, M+, PvP) is incredibly easy to obtain. That's 3 choices.
    The second Tier is also relatively easy to accomplish weekly, especially on a single character. That bring you to 6 choices.
    The third Tier will require some more dedication if you really want all 9 choices.

    Personally, I can see myself having 3-5 options most weeks and I'm perfectly fine with that. It's vastly better than BFA/Legion and also means on the weeks I only feel like raid logging, I'll still get a chest.
    Scratch that PVP Option from "Incredibly Easy to Obtain". Unless you have a good Rating in PVP you wont get anything Decent.

    I think for the Majority of players it will boil down to the two Choices from 5 Mythic Dungeons.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    If you do a single M+ dungeon then it's exactly the same as BFA and Legion. If you do 5 dungeons, (not that hard in a week) then you get double the reward choice you have now. If you don't want to run 15 Dungeons then kill a few raid bosses or get 100 conquest.

    Raiders have spent the last 2 expansions getting exactly zero weekly chest items without running M+
    This is expanding on the current system and giving players choices. If you don't want to run 15 M+ dungeons then don't.
    Nope its not the same because gear will be much more scarce and thus making weekly chest much more valuable.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    And that affects you in what way?
    It affects me in every possible way because a 'raid or die' expansion is not worth playing if you are not raiding.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    The problem with guilds outside of the top 1000 is that their management believes that their best means of progression is if everyone does everything possible to progress their character, even if that means doing 15 +15 dungeons, or that a certain essence is going to be the make or break in progression when there are people failing basic mechanics.
    I agree with this completely. It's often that the worse the player/guild is, the more value they give to 100 % optimization. You'll find the biggest elitists of m+ groups from those guilds as well.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    or we can just let people stop when they want? you dont need to get 9 or even 6+ rewards to remain competitive. This argument is ridiculous. I really don't need daddy blizzard telling me when to stop running content but you are really giving the impression that you lack the impulse control to stop when you don't want to do something anymore.

    How about we let the people who want to farm just M+ get multiple options along with the people who just want to raid and those who just want to pvp. Even the people that do a little mix of all 3 get to choose. But oh no the try hard that want to run 20+ hours of content to increase thei box rewards will get more OPTIONS not even more rewards.... OPTIONS. The change is a amazing upgrade over the current system but you preaching that its a downgrade cause the top of the top get more optimal rewards each week POTENTIALLY is just you wanting to be negative. Who cares if some one that plays more than you gets more than you. Its not gonna ruin your raid spot, its not gonna ruin your pug spot, its not gonna ruin your M+ runs.
    Have you ever given this system a deeper thought considering all environmental variables or not really?

    1. Gear will be rare, you are assuming current setting where you are showered in loot and can gear up in a day. That alone makes chest much more valuable.
    2. Technically in the middle of the road to your gearing up, chance to get something good from single-slot weekly chest is just abysmally low.
    3. However given that there is limited pool of items and they cannot be repeated, chance with 3 slots suddenly gets pretty high. Especially for raids.

    So given this 3 things, mythic raiders want to do 15 M+ each for at least 2 months. And all of them at max rewards level.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nope its not the same because gear will be much more scarce and thus making weekly chest much more valuable.
    Gear is more scarce because they're removing the RNG elements from it, moving away from the D3 style of loot where 99% of it is vendor trash unless it rolls the correct bonuses.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Gear is more scarce because they're removing the RNG elements from it, moving away from the D3 style of loot where 99% of it is vendor trash unless it rolls the correct bonuses.
    Which was never the case with titanforging in BfA. They are making static gear again and forgetting why they introduced in first placed going back to square one with all of its problems.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    It affects me in every possible way because a 'raid or die' expansion is not worth playing if you are not raiding.
    You must be Joking right?

    But how does others having gear affect you?
    Okey, it affects you in every Possible way, of no possible ways of Affecting you. At least your are right in that regard.

    Right now:
    Mythic Raiders have Access to 475/485er Gear from the Raid, and one Weekly 475 Item from their Weekly Chest (Maybe two if they also do PVP, but I dont think everyone does that)
    You have Access to one 475 Item from your weekly Chest. (Maybe two if you also do PVP)

    In Shadowlands:
    MythicRaiders have Access to their Mythic Gear, and one weekly MaxIlvl Item from their Weekly chest.
    You have Access to your MaxIlvl weekly chest.

    Whats the Difference?
    And dont tell me you actually believe MythicRaiders need to put any Effort at all into running their Current Weekly M+.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Which was never the case with titanforging in BfA. They are making static gear again and forgetting why they introduced in first placed going back to square one with all of its problems.
    That's the history of WOW. Every single iteration of the loot system has had it's problems... some more than others.

    I personally didn't mind WF/TF either, but I do think they needed to tone it down. A static +5/+10 ilvl proc would of been enough, and perhaps a currency to allow you to upgrade items by the same amounts to protect against bad RNG, like they tried in MOP.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    I personally didn't mind WF/TF either, but I do think they needed to tone it down. A static +5/+10 ilvl proc would of been enough, and perhaps a currency to allow you to upgrade items by the same amounts to protect against bad RNG, like they tried in MOP.
    Static +5 is basically irrelevant so much that system doesn't exist. 15 is minimum threshold to actually see any difference.
    And it was toned down a lot in BfA compared to legion ridiculous everything-is-titanforging stuff. People never really bothered to actually check.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    But how does others having gear affect you?
    Have you ever tried to join a group in WoW?

    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Right now:
    Mythic Raiders have Access to 475/485er Gear from the Raid, and one Weekly 475 Item from their Weekly Chest (Maybe two if they also do PVP, but I dont think everyone does that)
    You have Access to one 475 Item from your weekly Chest. (Maybe two if you also do PVP)

    In Shadowlands:
    MythicRaiders have Access to their Mythic Gear, and one weekly MaxIlvl Item from their Weekly chest.
    You have Access to your MaxIlvl weekly chest.
    That's not how it worked in most of BfA. M+ got heavily nerfed in 8.3 with the removal of titanforging, but there was at least some sort of compensation at the start with corruptions and high ilvl gear from visions. Shadowlands has nothing like that, instead it nerfs M+ even further in favor of raiding with every announced change so far.

  19. #279
    I think this is a pretty good way of doing things, maybe 15 dungeons is a bit high and I can understand if people complain and want that to be brought down a little to something closer to 10.
    And yes the 0.001% will feel pressured to fill all 9 options every week but lets not pretend like you lose a massive advantage from not doing so. If you care then getting 5-6 options instead of 9 doesn't seem unrealistic and that feels like a good wide selection.

    And it gives raiders the option to say "I don't feel like doing a M+ this week and I won't be punished by missing out on a high ilvl item" because raiding gives you choices aswell. Which was one of my big gripes about the weekly chest. Not everyone enjoys high M+ dungeons every week.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2020-07-31 at 09:41 AM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    3. However given that there is limited pool of items and they cannot be repeated, chance with 3 slots suddenly gets pretty high. Especially for raids.
    Do you have a link for this? Nothing they've announced(or that has been datamined) suggests gear won't be repeated. One of the main goals of the system is to give more choices so when you get repeats you can choose something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

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